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Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 06:21 PM Jul 2012

Re Romney's refrain that innovators did it all themselves. He might ask himself if all the

engineers, physicists, chemists and mathemeticians involved in developing new products (I'm not talking about people involved in the retail trades like Rmoney was, e.g. Staples and SportAuthority) and new technologies (e.g. computers) walked in the doors to their future employers saying they just 'knew' all the engineering, physics, chemistry and math they needed without benefit of teachers from K-12, and through college and graduate schools? How much of their education was acquired from institutions supported by public moneys? Of course, Rmoney wouldn't think of this because when he thinks 'innovator' he thinks of someone who finds cheaper sources for baseball caps and office machines .... and labor (i.e. off-shoring of jobs).

But even in a business involved in retail trade needs qualified accountants and some IT (information technology) types (yes most of the 'grunt' work would be done by firms specializing in this sort of work, but you still have to have some IT types to train personnel to use the equipment and to troubleshoot problems (which inevitably develop). And does Rmoney think these people just grow up knowing the rules of the game to accounting, and information technology? No mr. Rmoney, they have to learn it form people knowledgeable and qualified to educate them in their fields and to enable them to be qualified to work in their respective fields.

Also, there has been much original research supported by Government funds - research that private, for-profit, enterprises would find hard to rationalize and fund when there wasn't a commercial application foreseeable in the not too distanct future. Government demand for new and very expensive items also got new industries started when they would have gotten off the ground much more slowly, if at all, if they had depended on sales to private sector buyers to fund such research.


Regarding innovation in terms of theoretical problems solving, product developement or even that leading to new industry creation:

Problem solving accomplished in the research phase or early product development has often been funded by the Government. Once fundamental or difficult engineering challenges were solved, private sector 'entrepreneurs' could then pursue the commercial development of formerly very expensive components and make money selling consumer versions at higher volume and cheaper prices. But the early and very expensive research and developement that was necessary to make the item have any commercial potential was funded by the public with tax dollars.

for your consideration Mr. Rmoney:

[link:http://www.thebreakthrough.org/blog/Case%20Studies%20in%20American%20Innovation.pdf|Case Studies in American Innovation
A New Look at Government Involvement in
Technological Development]

From the beginnings of the computer industry, federal and military agencies promoted vital basic
research into computing hardware and deployed early computers throughout the government. As
economist Vernon Ruttan writes, “The role of the military in driving the development of
computer, semiconductor and software technologies cannot be overemphasized. These
technologies were, until well into the 1960s, nourished by markets that were almost completely
dependent on the defense, energy and space industries.” In fact, the ENIAC, the first electronic
computer, was built in 1945 to crunch numbers for the Army Ballistics Research Laboratory. In
the 1950s, the Army Signal Corps funded research into semiconductors, and weapons labs at the
Atomic Energy Commission were the first purchasers of supercomputers, the ancestors of today's
desktop PCs. NASA, the Department of Defense, the National Center for Atmosphere Research,
and the U.S. Weather Bureau commissioned their own supercomputers soon after. Perhaps most
importantly, the Air Force's SAGE air defense project generated numerous innovations in
computing design and production during the early 1950s, including cheap manufacturing of
computer memory, communication between computers, and the use of keyboard terminals.


The government was also heavily involved in the development of computer software. Defense
agencies funded the basic R&D that led to early computer programs and programming
languages. During the 1970s, in fact, defense spending fueled over half of all academic
computing research, and grants from the military's Advanced Research Project Agency (ARPA)
established the first university computer science programs at MIT, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon
and elsewhere. The defense establishment took computing seriously. In 1962, ARPA's computer
research budget exceeded that of all other countries combined; by 1970, its funding had
increased fourfold. The Department of Defense was the single largest purchaser of software well
into the 1980's, ensuring the consistent market demand that fueled an ever-growing industry.

In addition to producing major computing advances through research funding and direct
acquisition, the federal government also cultivated the innovators and engineers of the modern
computer industry. Many of the minds behind the groundbreaking work at Xerox’s Palo Alto
Research Center (PARC), the famous computer research center, and at corporations like
Microsoft and Apple came straight from government agencies.
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs might
be famous names today, but others were crucial in the PC's development – men like J.C.R.
Licklider, a pioneer theorist of human-machine interactivity and computer networking, and Ivan
Sutherland, whose government-funded Sketchpad project created the first interactive graphics
program and led to the invention of the computer mouse.

No less important, however, were the innumerable programmers, system designers, and
computer theorists who cut their teeth and honed their skills at ARPA. [font size="3" color="blue"]So many veterans of
ARPA and ARPA-supported university programs came to work at Xerox PARC that insiders there jokingly referred to an "ARPA Army."[/font]
These numerous veterans of government-funded
programs helped Xerox PARC develop the graphical user interface and the Alto, the world’s first
modern PC, and later scattered to run startup firms like Apple, Microsoft, and Adobe.

Popular myths about the rise of the PC make little mention of the government, but in reality,
public funding built the foundations of personal computing. The government's prescient
investments in computer research, hardware and software deployment, and computer science
education unleashed a transformative technology and helped build a massive industry from the
ground up.
<much more>


one more thing about 'innovators', Steven Jobs did marvelous things, but you should know that around Apple, is was well known that Jobs would say: "GET IT DONE!". But it was the hardware and software engineers who actualy did it. and to be able to get it done they had to have years of education and training - provided by someone.


One of the greatest true innovators in history said: "I stand on the shoulders of giants"__Sir Isaac Newton

6 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Re Romney's refrain that innovators did it all themselves. He might ask himself if all the (Original Post) Bill USA Jul 2012 OP
How many defense jobs are created by Govt julian09 Jul 2012 #1
Personally, I think Obama made a Gaffe. qwlauren35 Jul 2012 #2
of course, everybody in the M$M pulled one sentence out of his statement. if they had played even Bill USA Jul 2012 #3
Have you noticed that the Donald has not spoken up. kemah Jul 2012 #4
Xerox PARC is not the best example because, unlike many other Blue Meany Jul 2012 #5
I used Xerox as an example of a company that benefitted from not only Government contracts for Bill USA Jul 2012 #6
 

julian09

(1,435 posts)
1. How many defense jobs are created by Govt
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 06:31 PM
Jul 2012

how much military R&D created spinoff industries, space, aerospace jobs etc.

qwlauren35

(6,110 posts)
2. Personally, I think Obama made a Gaffe.
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 06:56 PM
Jul 2012

It would have been better to give a talk about how all of America's giants started as small businesses, and innovation and vision have been a cornerstone in our enterpreneurial successes.

Talking about the infrastructure within which a small business operates may feel good to some people, but it's not going to sit well with most people who have ever come up with an idea all by themselves and then turned it into something.

I was pretty uncomfortable with what Obama said, I hope he never says it again. I hope he never even tries. It's a bad message.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
3. of course, everybody in the M$M pulled one sentence out of his statement. if they had played even
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 08:41 PM
Jul 2012

just the whole paragraph, it would have shown what he was really saying. Basically, what I pointed out in OP.. teachers and efforts of others helped set the stage for what the individual does. He didn't overlook individual intiative. He just said it's not realistic to say you did something entirely on your own. It's just the difference between looking at something from purely the personal level versus being able to get outside your personal perspective to see it from a systems level.

These views are not mutually exclusive but you have to be able to see it from the systems level to see that.


example: an aircraft engineer designs the wings for a terrific aircraft that can break altitude and range records. He can be proud of that, but he realizes that the altitude and range performance depended also on the engine designed by a team at the firm that made the engine. Of course, the engine designers needed alloys for that engine made by another company that were able to hold up to the demands made on them by the engine. of course the engineer who designed the wings didn't do it alone either. He was part of a team of engineers and mathematicians etc. who worked thousands of hours on it. So he knows he didn't do it on his own. I could go on and on with this.

There is very little in today's world that is done by a single person, entirely on his/her own.



kemah

(276 posts)
4. Have you noticed that the Donald has not spoken up.
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 11:07 AM
Jul 2012

Donald of all people would be leading the charge of "I made all these up by myself with no government help."
But his dad made his fortune right after WWII building homes for GIs under the GI bill. Yes all government contracts started the Trump fortune.

 

Blue Meany

(1,947 posts)
5. Xerox PARC is not the best example because, unlike many other
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:05 PM
Jul 2012

research units in the business sector, they were a leading source of academic research on electronic communications. Their work was not tied directly to products and they shared their research with the public. In short, they acted like a public-sector or academic agency.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
6. I used Xerox as an example of a company that benefitted from not only Government contracts for
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 06:07 PM
Jul 2012

research or developement into new technologies, but also from people with a lot of knowledge gained in the Government which they then took to Zerox. Robert Taylor "founder and later manager of Xerox PARC's Computer Science Laboratory from 1970 through 1983" (link ) came to PARC from DOD's ARPA (Advanced Research and Products Agency) later renamed DARPA (Defense Advanced Research and Products Agency) to name one.

In the OP excerpt it says: "So many veterans of ARPA and ARPA-supported university programs came to work at Xerox PARC that insiders there jokingly referred to an "ARPA Army."


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