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Chris Hedges: Figures like Snowden Deeply Courageous (Original Post) damnedifIknow Jun 2013 OP
Yes 90-percent Jun 2013 #1
Chris Tells It Like It Is cantbeserious Jun 2013 #2
Did Hedges say this before or after Snowden told the Chinese about US surveillance of China? SunSeeker Jun 2013 #3
I don't get the significance here. reusrename Jun 2013 #4
There is nothing heroic about a guy who turns out to be a traitor. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #5
my guess is that just about anything would have seald it for you zeemike Jun 2013 #6
He could have raised the issue without betraying us to China. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #7
Well I don't know that he did. zeemike Jun 2013 #8
Requiring he maintain secret our method of surveillance on China was not an "immoral order." SunSeeker Jun 2013 #9
I did not say it was zeemike Jun 2013 #10
Two wrongs don't make a right. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #11
Again, we are not at war with China. zeemike Jun 2013 #12
Surveillance of foreign countries is why Truman created the NSA. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #13
Well I guess it is in your best interest to spy on your neighbor too. zeemike Jun 2013 #14
No, it is not in my best interest to spy on people in my neighborhood. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #15
I was not being sarcastic I was dead serious zeemike Jun 2013 #16
He is getting charged. And he will have a fair trial. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #17
Bullshit....he will never live to tell his story in open court. zeemike Jun 2013 #18
The last well-publicized NSA leaker, Thomas Drake, is doing just fine. SunSeeker Jun 2013 #19
Secret Drone Wars, Secret Kill Lists, Secret Torture Prisons fasttense Jun 2013 #20

90-percent

(6,828 posts)
1. Yes
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 08:51 PM
Jun 2013

I'm with Chris on this. Whistle blowers are the last lifeline in the chain of checks and balances that is the basis for our democracy. Those that dismantle our Constitutional Rights in the name of "fighting terror" are violating their oaths of office - to preserve, defend and protect THE CONSTITUTION.

-90% Jimmy

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
4. I don't get the significance here.
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:57 PM
Jun 2013

China is a foreign country. They are not subject to our laws or our constitutional protections.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
5. There is nothing heroic about a guy who turns out to be a traitor.
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:12 PM
Jun 2013

He waxed poetic about Hong Kong's "strong tradition of free speech" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-basic-liberties_n_3414824.html ) even though Hong Kong has one of the most intrusive surveillance laws in the world. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/asia/06cnd-hong.html?_r=1& )
Ok, maybe he was just being young and stupid.

But then today, when he divulged secrets to the Chinese press about how the US conducts surveillance on China, he just sealed it. He is a traitor.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
6. my guess is that just about anything would have seald it for you
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:21 PM
Jun 2013

Myself I think that someone collecting information on millions of Americans in direct violation of the 4th amendment is a traitor to his oath to protect and defend the constitution....and someone that rats them out is doing his duty to that oath

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
7. He could have raised the issue without betraying us to China.
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:31 PM
Jun 2013

There was no legitimate reason for him to provide top secret information about our surveillance of China.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
8. Well I don't know that he did.
Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:51 PM
Jun 2013

I only know what the media tells me, but what I do know is the media is compromised in spades and I don't take their word for things any more than you will take his.

Besides he has the right to defend his life from a lawless government that could and would whack him if they got the chance, or put him in prison and torture him...so no one owns them their life....we are not at war with China, and in fact China owns a big piece of America because these same corporate bastards sold it to them.

Our loyalty should be to the constitution not to an out of control government that is ignoring it.
And just as the Neurimburg trials established that you are not compelled to obey an illigal or immoral order so it is with one that is unconstitutional....and data mining clearly is.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
9. Requiring he maintain secret our method of surveillance on China was not an "immoral order."
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 12:27 AM
Jun 2013

The Constitution does not protect traitors, whether or not we are "at war" with the country they spill secrets to. He could have complained about data mining of US citizen's info without going over to China, fawning over their "strong tradition of free speech" and spilling top secret info about American surveillance of China. China spies on us, is a horrible authoritarian regime, and certainly does not have our best interests at heart. Even worse, Snowden waited to do it right when Chinese leadership were in our country to answer for embarrassing Chinese hacking revelations. Snowden certainly helped China deflect attention from China's hacking against Americans.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
10. I did not say it was
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 12:55 AM
Jun 2013

I said that the violation of the 4th amendment was immoral and he was told to do it as part of his job...That made it his duty to squeal on them

And if he did what you say he did I do not hold him to that promise he made to keep it secret because THEY broke the bargain when they violated the 4th amendment.
Agreements are broken when ether side brakes it.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
11. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 01:00 AM
Jun 2013

His duty to maintain our country's secrets against a foreign power are not dependent on the NSA maintaining its promises to him. It is a duty he has to the American people.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
12. Again, we are not at war with China.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 01:37 AM
Jun 2013

So if we spy on them it is a wrong...and is an embarrassment but does not endanger the American people.
Is it as bad as the U2 spy plane shot down over Russia?...And that was during the cold war.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
13. Surveillance of foreign countries is why Truman created the NSA.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 02:37 AM
Jun 2013

Our surveillance of China is not a "wrong." It is in the interest of our national security. It does not matter that we are not at war with them. Snowden had no justification, legal or moral, for disclosing US surveillance methods regarding China to China (and the world). That does endanger the American people. We need to be able to gather intelligence about foreign powers, particularly ones that are hacking our systems.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
14. Well I guess it is in your best interest to spy on your neighbor too.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 07:43 AM
Jun 2013

I mean they could be doing something that could harm your property...but that don't make it right...besides, your neighbor might be spying on you...and you would not want to have a soy gap.

What has changed is that once we knew things were wrong, but we did it because we thought we had to...now we do things that are wrong and we fool ourselves into thinking they are right.

And again, I don't know what he revealed to China....and my guess is neither do you...we know what the media tells us and as has been shown by Clapper and others they can and will lie to us...especially when trying to get a whistleblower.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
15. No, it is not in my best interest to spy on people in my neighborhood.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 04:56 PM
Jun 2013

If you want to resort to sarcasm, that is up to you. I do think it is in our national interest for our government to collect intelligence on foreign powers, and I hope that you would agree. That is why we have intelligence agencies.

If you believe the media about what Snowden said about domestic surveillance, then I see no reason why you would not believe it about what he said about our surveillance on China. And he said plenty. He gave up top secret information about how our China surveillance system works:

U.S. intelligence agents have been hacking computer networks around the world for years, apparently targeting fat data pipes that push immense amounts of data around the Internet, NSA leaker Edward Snowden told the South China Morning Post on Wednesday.

Among some 61,000 reported targets of the National Security Agency, Snowden said, are hundreds of computers in China -- which U.S. officials have increasingly criticized as the source of thousands of attacks on U.S. military and commercial networks. China has denied such attacks.

The Morning Post said it had seen documents provided by Snowden but was unable to verify their authenticity. The English-language news agency, which operates in Hong Kong, also said it was unable to independently verify allegations of U.S. hacking of networks in Hong Kong and mainland China since 2009.

Snowden told the paper that some of the targets included the Chinese University of Hong Kong, public officials and students. The documents also "point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets," the newspaper reported.

...

In the Morning Post interview -- published one week after the British newspaper The Guardian revealed the first leaks attributed to Snowden -- he claimed the agency he once worked for as a contractor typically targets high-bandwidth data lines that connect Internet nodes located around the world.

"We hack network backbones -- like huge Internet routers, basically -- that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one," the newspaper quoted him as saying.

A "backbone" is part of the inner workings of a computer network that links different parts of that network. It is used to deliver data from one part of the network to another and, as such, could expose data from multiple computers if hacked.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

And this was reported by a Chinese newspaper who is not "trying to get a whistleblower."


zeemike

(18,998 posts)
16. I was not being sarcastic I was dead serious
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 06:08 PM
Jun 2013

that is how paranoia works...you start seeing every one as your enemy an so you need to spy on them to feel safe.

The media did not tell me what Snowden said...he said it himself. The media transmitted what he said....the South China Morning did not quote him I am guessing...don't know because I did not read it...and don't even care to because it makes no difference whatsoever to me...this is not about him or China this is about us and spying on the American people.

If he did something wrong then charge him with a crime and give him a fair trial....but that is the point...he will not get a fair trial and you know it...they will whack him the first chance they get...because we have abandoned the rule of law long ago, and dropped all pretense of morality...all for safety.
We are a civilization in moral decline...and this is just a symptom.

SunSeeker

(51,512 posts)
17. He is getting charged. And he will have a fair trial.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 06:27 PM
Jun 2013

High profile defendants get rather good defense attorneys who will happily defend him for the free publicity.

It is poor no-name defendants who are screwed. But now we are going off topic....

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
18. Bullshit....he will never live to tell his story in open court.
Thu Jun 13, 2013, 07:07 PM
Jun 2013

They are just as passionate about keeping what they are doing secret as the secrets themselves....squealers will be dealt with just as the mob would deal with them...examples must be set to deter others.

There is billions in profits to be protected.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
20. Secret Drone Wars, Secret Kill Lists, Secret Torture Prisons
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:13 AM
Jun 2013

Secret courts, Secret application of laws, Secret congressional briefings, Secret trade agreements, Secret covert operations, Secret undisclosed locations, Secret memos, Secret foreign negotiations, Secret campaign donations, Secret NSA surveillance on ALL Americans and on and on and on it goes. Where it stops nobody knows.

So exactly how are we any different than China or the former USSR?

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