Pro-Russia protesters tell pro-Ukranian protesters to "get on their knees":

[joshcryer]

Well done, Putin.

[yankee dandee]

1. Ukraine

Strong man Obama is going to punish Russia by putting strong embargoes on Russian vodka....That'll teach Putin a lesson!

[joshcryer]

4. Russian oligarchs may in fact feel it.

But I doubt the admin has the fortitude.

[dipsydoodle]

2. Deadly clashes in east Ukraine ahead of Crimea vote

Two people have been killed in clashes between pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists in Ukraine's eastern city of Kharkiv, officials say.

Five people were injured overnight, as gunshots were fired. Rival groups blamed each other for the violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26590745

[joshcryer]

3. The video speaks for itself.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Yes - reminds me of old skool football violence

only less so.

[joshcryer]

6. Two people died.

So I suppose so.

(They were on the pro-Ukraine side.)

[dipsydoodle]

8. Oh.

You may find reports that the shooting was done by the Right Sector crowd holed up in their own building in an effort to prevent others unspecified from breaking in.

Note here :

Two people were killed and several were injured in Kharkiv when nationalists opened fire on a group of men trying to storm their headquarters late on Friday.

4.10pm GMT http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/15/ukraine-crisis-fatal-clashes-as-tensions-rise-before-crimea-vote-live

[joshcryer]

9. This was in Donetsk.

Source: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/28e2b766-ab05-11e3-83a2-00144feab7de.html

Here was Russia's spin: http://www.rferl.org/content/donetsk-protester-death-russian-foreign-ministry-ukraine/25296953.html

The guy with the bloody face may be one of the dead actually, after re-watching I think the brick that was thrown may have been picked up by advancing pro-Russian protesters and used against him. Heat of the moment sort of thing. "Oh here's a brick, let's smash someones head in." Very much like a soccer riot... nationalist in nature, sides being pitted against one another, emotions being charged.

Putin is succeeding in starting to tear Ukraine apart. It's classic.

[dipsydoodle]

10. Apologies then

I hadn't picked up the coincidence concerning the number dead at different events.

[newthinking]

12. 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv (Right Sector)

(Not the best translation (below), events are as follows:

*A Blue Van pulled up and shot automatic weapons at a group of "Pro-Russian activists" near the square

*Some of the activists regognized the van as one that had also shot at people on March 8th

* The van tried to flee but activists followed on motorcycles

*The Van fled to a "Patriot of Ukraine" office and tried to hide inside.

*"Kharkiv Self-Defence" representatives (Militia) and local police gathered at the office and tried to enter and those inside (30-40 ppl) used guns and "petrol bombs" and killed one man and a passer-by, and injured 5 others including a policeman.

* Right sector took hostages in the process

*Eventually those in the building surrendered (They were surrounded by militia, 200 pro-russian activists who had arrived, and police)

http://un.ua/eng/article/498355.html

2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv

Two people were killed and five injured on March 14 night in a shooting near the office of the non-government organisation Patriot of Ukraine at 18 Rymarska Street in central Kharkiv, a police spokesman has told Ukrainian News Agency. Eyewitnesses say unknown people from a blue Volkswagen T4 van were shooting from traumatic weapons at pro-Russian activists from the "Kharkiv Self-Defence" movement in Svobody Square in Kharkiv on March 14 evening. Eyewitnesses maintain that from the same van with Dnipropetrovsk registration number they were shooting at a car full of pro-Russian activists in Pravdy Avenue in Kharkiv on March 8. The van was hijacked.

They made several shots, threw a tear gas pot, and tried to escape, but bikers from the square set to pursuit and found out that the van approached the building at 18 Rymarska Street.

"Kharkiv Self-Defence" representatives tried to penetrate the Patriot of Ukraine office but the people inside responded with shooting from traumatic weapons through windows, and later shotgun pellets from short rifles, and also threw a stun grenade and a petrol bomb at the attackers. In the shooting one "Kharkiv Self-Defence" representative and an accidental passer-by was killed, five injured, including a policeman, who sustained a serious injury in the chest; all wounded were taken to hospital. The people inside the building took three hostages: two of the building's guardsmen and a police officer, who entered it for
negotiations.

SNIP

At about 04:30 the people in the building agreed to ground arms and surrender.
Policemen removed people from the building, searched them, led into buses, and drove away.
Preliminary information, some 30 people were detained.

[newthinking]

11. Not everything is geopolitical. There was West vs East fighting and

alternate demonstrations as well as anger between East and West well before Russia secured Crimea.

What does not seem to get picked up by the media is that civil war was already on the way. The East would not have accepted the new government regardless. Russia could leave Crimea tomorrow and they would still dig in and fight.

Joshc, just answer me one question (if we can have a civil discussion without stereotyping?)

One of the factors that has everyone against each other is the groups like Right sector are traveling to these areas and people in the East and south are provoked by that, since these groups have been filmed in Kiev inciting others toward violence.

Another factor that keeps the East and south from accepting the new government is that they placed Svoboda and Right Sector members in exectutive positions.

If we are really are interested in a just and peaceful resolution why hasn't the new government removed those members from those positions? Why are they no pressuring them to stop their threatening behaviors. And why is the US and Europe not putting pressure on the government to do so?

You may not believe these things are very important factors but that does not mean they aren't. Putin is being aggressive, but the East /Southern Ukrainians are mostly just reacting out of fear.

[joshcryer]

13. Only 0.1% of Ukrainians feel discriminated against by nationality.

Page 133 in this study: http://www.i-soc.com.ua/doc/Ukr_ta_Evro_eng.pdf

So I do not feel you have established that "civil war was already on the way." Discrimination in Ukraine has generally been against LGBT, Jews, and other ethnic or racial backgrounds, not between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians. They tend to be unified. Some military commanders in Ukraine proper are ethnic Russian but have stated they will defend Ukraine from further incursions. There just is an overwhelming majority of ethnic Russians in Crimea. 17% across all of Ukraine, but 50%+ in Crimea. Since Russia has taken Crimea out of the picture, it's closer now to 12% of ethnic Russians in Ukraine proper.

Right Sector is a fringe group that has no more than 500 followers, similar to the nazi groups in the United States. They have been arrested for their actions by Ukrainians. And in fact in the last clashes with Right Sector one of the arresting police was shot, showing that Ukrainians are not putting up with Right Sector's violent tactics.

Svoboda certainly got positions in the transitional government, in particular which is most frightening is that one of them is the leader of the Ministry of Defense. That should be cause for concern because he could order Ukrainians to attack the Russian invading force. If anything it should be reason for Russia to slow down its advances into Ukraine's territory. Instead they keep instigating. The State Department probably wants a Svoboda person in the Ministry of Defense for that reason. It weakens Putin's options to further invade Ukraine proper.

[newthinking]

14. That link does not open for me.

When was it done? A lot has changed in perceptions in the last three or so months.

Regardless, I know that is the simplified meme in the media. Eastern Ukrainians are not running around scared of western Ukrainians. What is going on both "sides" is complicated and there is a history. From my understanding those I know feel mostly seriously offended by what happened in Kiev. They were also trained from WWII not to tolerate what they consider "fascism", and they know that while most of population on the west are not far right, they see the new government as "allied" with "fascists".

That is why I have said many times I do not understand why we are not pressuring the new government to find other people for those posts. Why is their government not distancing themselves from the far right? As long as they are perceived to be working with "fascists" things are not going to settle down.

And by the way, Right Sector does have positions in the government. There are two as deputy ministers to the svoboda ministers. Nobody knows how many may have been given lower positions. It seems to me that the more moderate politicians in the west may be afraid of what may happen if they don't give in to the far right demands for power.

[joshcryer]

17. Fixed link, it was done in 2007.

http://i-soc.com.ua/institute/Ukr_ta_Evro_eng.pdf

You can see the breakdown of the intrim cabinet here: http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-whos-who-cabinet/25279592.html

I think with the exception Andriy Parubiy, Ihor Tenyukh, and Oleksandr Sych most of the posts are practical. Most of these people are oligarchs. The Ukrainian people have been duped by them for decades.

What would be a real indicator of where things are heading is after the elections. Most of these people will be ousted. The Right Sector and Svoboda dudes look like they exist at the military posts, and I suspect I know why; the State Department needs fascists to run the military, so that Ukraine fights back if Putin incurs further into the country. The protesters probably don't even give an inkling as to why that they're at the head of it.

Otherwise the cabinet is pretty diverse, an Armenian, a Russian, a Siberian, lawyers, actors and singers, professors, journalists. They're all probably slandered as right wing fascists. I think Timothy Snyder has the more nuanced, less knee jerk reaction about the protests: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

Particularly: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

I think Putin and Russia is inflaming things and revising history.

[newthinking]

15. Here is writeup from Vice I just ran into that does a better job of explaining the divergent

viewpoints than I do.

Ukrainian Revolution Awakens Totalitarian Demons

https://news.vice.com/articles/ukrainian-revolution-awakens-totalitarian-demons

While attention has been focused on Russia’s occupation of Crimea, pro-Russian Ukrainians and uninformed observers have raised alarm in recent weeks about a purported resurgence of fascism in Kiev. Reports have circulated about the interim Ukrainian government supposedly banning the Communist Party, lifting bans on Nazi propaganda, or committing a host of politically unconscionable acts. Setting aside the utter improbability that any such initiatives would become the law of the land, these claims have certainly scared the crap out of some people.

For the West (and a minority of Russians), the storyline has been that a pro-democracy movement — which strives for human rights, dignity, yoga pants, and all that jazz — overthrew a corrupt Ukrainian regime that was merely a puppet of Russia. For Russians (and a minority of Westerners), it’s been that an armed group illegally seized power in right-wing coup with the support of neo-fascists.

The political arguments surrounding the events in Crimea are similar to what you'd expect from the average American online political discussion, even if most of the Hitler comparisons are written in Cyrillic.

SNIP

Ukrainian protesters have been tearing down statues of Lenin for reasons that are completely opaque to many outside observers, while pro-Russian crowds have waived Russian and even Soviet flags and made dark claims about neo-Nazism. Today, as the two camps square off over the fate of Ukraine, they are contending with historical demons as much as they are political opponents.

[joshcryer]

16. That's a good writeup and I believe that's Putin's goal.

To pit Ukrainian against Ukrainian. Ethnic and Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians against ethnic and Russian speaking Ukrainians. I do not believe there were ethnic clashes until Kiev. The Orange Revolution did not have any signs of ethnic or national clashes. Russia has risen in its nationalist rhetoric since that time and has tried to get Russian speaking people to rally around a united Russia.

This is necessary to achieve Aleksandr Dugin's roadmap for Ukraine:

Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as an independent state with certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is sanitary cordon, which would be inadmissible.

Putin is a huge advocate for the Eurasia Union and Ukraine, sitting on 39 trillion cubic feet of natural gas poses a huge, insurmountable challenge for the Eurasia Union. Without Ukraine's leverage then Russia becomes moot in that region of the world.

[Bosonic]

7. At least some Muscovites aren't happy with Putin's actions

Peace March Live from Moscow (15th March 2014)