Western Denial of Women's Danger In Islam Concerns Us ALL

[ancianita]

Any woman with daughters understands that this is a message consistent with those of the founders of Mother's Day.

Denial of the meanings in the Koran are strategically fed to Western multiculturalists and liberals to mollify their resistance against Islam’s sharia movements by Islamic men against the women under their power.

Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali accurately note that the majority of muslims worldwide do believe that muslims should live under sharia law. It is strategic on their part to deny this to Westerners. Their critical mass of support for sharia -- a big part of which contains mass belief in the worshipful purity of virginity and hymen protection that keeps mature girls out of Islamic schools -- is the context of a reality of potential violence in America: we must never forget that this heroic woman still has to have body guards while living in America.

Ali: Organization of the Islamic Conference countries send diplomats to the West to dictate what our newspapers may or may not write about Islam—restricting the use of the word “jihad,” for instance. That’s what I find so ridiculous: The leaders of these governments work harder at censoring the media in the U.S. and Europe than they do at addressing the problem of jihadis in their own countries.

Harris: And, of course, many of these states—Saudi Arabia in particular—actively export the ideology of jihadism and Salafi-style Islamism to mosques all over the world.

From the video:

Right now what you see when it involves violence,whether it is against women or religious minorities…Shias or Sunnis…there are peace loving muslims who are put in a position of cognitive dissonance. They do lead lives that are not consonant with what the Koran says and the example of the prophet Muhammad.

And I think the way forward is to stop the denial…to look at this and to modify it…there is this enormous opportunity for muslims … here in the US to look at scripture in the eye and to innovate and to reform. And unless that is done, that dissonance is going to be there and the people who invoke the verses…to justify the subjection of women and to justify the violence against women … will always be there...

[Mondavi]

1. It's not only failing to acknowledge the dangers to females

it's also total inaction where action could have been taken.

[awoke_in_2003]

2. And if you bring it up here...

people will call you a xenophobe or a bigot.

[shaayecanaan]

42. If the boot fits (nt)

[awoke_in_2003]

43. I feel the same about all...

of the Abrahamic religions. At their core they are mysoginistic at best. We have let the christian right get away with murder for the last 30 years in this country. It it time to put all religions in their place, or they are going to bring their own version of sharia law to our country.

[azurnoir]

3. more about the couragous Ms Ali

In May 2006 the television programme Zembla reported that Hirsi Ali had given false information about her real name,[46] her age and the country she arrived from when originally applying for asylum. She had claimed to be fleeing the war in Somalia. However, she had been legally resident in Kenya for many years. The documentary also featured interviews with her family in which her claims of an arranged marriage were denied. The program also alleged that, contrary to her claims of having fled a war zone in Somalia, the MP had lived in comfortable upper middle-class circumstances safely in Kenya for at least 12 years before she sought refugee status in the Netherlands in 1992. Her family home – which is large and comfortable by Kenyan standards – was shown in the programme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

[ancianita]

5. Interesting choice of excerpt.Why this particular excerpt? Do you doubt her veracity?

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

[shaayecanaan]

6. Wouldn't you?

She joined an anti-immigration right wing Dutch party, who dumped her when they found out she'd lied to get a visa. She was then deported from the Netherlands, and jumped ship to the US, where she worked for a right wing think tank. Frankly I don't think you could hang a dog on a single thing she says.

[ancianita]

8. Hell, no! Have you read her three books? They were written in 2004, 2007 and 2010, much

before the excerpted link was written, your interpretation of which goes against the factual context of the entire wikipedia page.

How quick you are to dismiss her, her journey and her authority. Based on what, one paragraph. You act as if she never had to be on the run to freedom, that she never had to seek asylum within certain patriarchal legal constraints, that think tanks are some job corps for anyone who wants work. And no one thinks that Harvard takes just anyone as a fellow at their Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. In case you're unaware, the Dutch courts later reversed the decision, leading to the fall of the government. Disillusioned with the Netherlands, Ayaan then moved to the United States. She wasn't deported.

I seriously doubt you have even watched the video, nevermind read her books. You sound as if you prefer to go out of your way to find fault with some religious escapee in order to avoid the real life-and-death issues for women that she speaks to. I and millions of men and women disagree with you.

[azurnoir]

9. Ali openly admitted to lying about "her journey" after the statute of limitations was up

which is why her deportation was overturned and nothing else
now as for for Ali being the cause of the Dutch government "falling" there may have been some very indirect involvement, but to claim she was the reason is fanciful at best BTW the Dutch government has fallen twice since once in 2010 over continued military involvement in Afghanistan and in 2012 over austerity measures

She was allowed into the US at the height of the Bush administration

What she "escaped" it could seem is being a bored affluent housewife in Kenya

[shaayecanaan]

10. We'll, perhaps you can find time

To watch this doco from Dutch TV, which sets out how much of a bullshit artist she really is

https://m.

[azurnoir]

14. Thank you for posting

[azurnoir]

7. Here is a recent photo of her with Pam Geller who blog atlas shrugs is a known antiIslamic hate site

the other woman in the photo is Caroline Glick another extreme Rightwinger

Ali was recently rejected as a speaker at Brandeis University commencement ceremony where she was also to receive an honorary degree due to protest over her appearance

Ali has stated emphatically that there is no such thing as moderate Islam

There are better choices to represent concern for women living in Somalia and elsewhere Waris Dirie would be one albeit she isn't quite as friendly with the likes Geller and Geert Wilders as Ali

Waris Dirie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waris_Dirie

[ancianita]

12. There ARE no better choices to represent any concerns for muslim women worldwide. Your guilt by

association is so Republican of you. But hey, if you can come up with some names, you would have already done so, wouldn't you.

In Ali's own words:

When I arrived in the Netherlands, in 1992, I misrepresented the year of my birth at my intake interview. I said I was born in 1967, but I was born in 1969. I also changed my grandfather’s name. In many tribal societies, instead of a surname you have a string of names—I am Ayaan; my father is Hirsi; and my father’s father, when he was born, was named Ali. But later on, when he grew up and became a warrior, he was called Magan (Somali for “protection” or “refuge”), because he protected some of the peoples whom he conquered. Magan is, basically, a nickname that he acquired later in life.

Technically, I did not lie about Ali, because that was also his name. I used it deliberately, because I figured that if I could get this intake interview, then my father or the man he married me off to could come and say that they were looking for Ayaan Hirsi Magan, born November 13, 1969, and they would find me very easily. I wanted to prevent that, so I called myself Ayaan Hirsi Ali and changed my birth year to 1967. I was trying to cover my trail just enough that I wouldn’t have the fear of being immediately found. I had never before lived in a system where there were any protections put in place for me...

My ex-husband was accompanied by three other men when he showed up at the asylum center where I was. But by then I had been in the country for something like four to six months, and even in that very, very short period, I came to understand that I had rights.

On the day that they showed up, I went to the reception center and confessed everything to one of the people working there. Her name was Sylvia, and she said, “You don’t have to go with him if you don’t want to. You’re over the age of 18. In fact, here in the Netherlands, your marriage isn’t even recognized, because he is Canadian and the marriage took place somewhere else. So we will just protect you. I’ll simply call the police.”

...I told my legal-aid lawyer about my forced marriage, and she said that it was not sufficient grounds for asylum and that I would have to come up with something else. So, based on the information she gave me, I adapted my story.

In 1992, the civil war in Somalia was at one of its worst points, and most European governments were giving asylum to Somalis. In fact, it was almost enough to just say that you were Somali. So, during my interview, instead of talking about my forced marriage, or about living in Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, and Kenya, I just pretended I came straight from Somalia, and that I was fleeing the civil war..."

When muslim women need all the Western allies they can get, you, with your nasty detractions of their greatest fighter, are clearly pro-patriarchal saboteurs of muslim women, and cheap shot trolls here on DU.

[azurnoir]

13. NO surprise that you'd disregard Waris Dirie her concern is women Muslim and otherwise first

not using Muslim women as a vehicle to condemn all Muslims

as to Ali's own words those have been shown as being less than factual

[shaayecanaan]

17. I love the fact that they admit

That they're not prepared to listen to any Muslim woman other than ayaan hirsi ali. Says a lot really.

[ancianita]

44. All these women get more public platforms here than in the entire Muslim world. Quote "the

fact that they admit that they're not prepared to listen to any Muslim woman..." I must have missed that part.

And just what is it that "says a lot really."

[ancianita]

20. Just this one? I can accept her views. They don't result in endorsing the killing of muslim women.

Nevertheless, this religion, more than most patriarchal religions, is not conducive to the safety or freedom of women in general.

[shaayecanaan]

40. Bullshit

Western women do not have freedom because of Christianity but despite of it. It took a long time before political Christianity was finally killed off.

Political Islam is more tenable than political Christianity or political Judaism not because it is more extreme but precisely because it is more moderate. The Jewish Torah prescribes the death penalty for 25 different offences ranging from disrespecting your parents through to shagging a sheep. If it were applied literally very few people would escape execution. The Koran prescribes death only for murder and even then it urges clemency.

Christian theocracy died off because of it's extremely limited provision for divorce. Again, the Koran is more moderate in this respect. It is actually the only text which explicitly discourages polygamy, even if it is still permitted.

[ancianita]

45. Re Christianity, you don't know shit about it. Political Islam? Tenable? You think the Torah

is relevant here? You're obviously sidestepping any arguments relevant to the OP. You simply don't like anti-Islam discussions that get public viewing. Too bad.

There's no Western equivalence that you can present. You're not able to present evidence of christian mass hostage taking, any christian hunts for apostates or blasphemers, public whippings, or christian organizational reports about how women only live by the graces of their male 'guardians,' etc., etc. Not even women's deaths-by-Torah. Your straining shows.

When non-muslim women here fight against male repressions, religious or otherwise -- and women don't pretend it doesn't exist here, or that it's somehow their fault -- they're not being flown by muslim airlines to muslim hospitals for healing, or calling on muslim multi-national rescue efforts to help them. Certainly women here don't make presentations to "tenable" political Islam forums. You just won't address the reasons for all these differences.

Yet you want to fling the accusation of bullshit at me. Try to remember that this thread isn't about the flimsy republican notion that "they all do it." You're getting nowhere.

[shaayecanaan]

46. I'm a Maronite

Last edited Wed May 14, 2014, 11:35 AM - Edit history (1)

or Lebanese catholic if you prefer. We were in fact one of the very first Christian communities. My father is a philologist specialising in Aramaic texts, the language of Jesus, Ezra and Daniel. You've simply presumed that I am Muslim and therefore know nothing about Christianity. For that the stupidity is all yours.

[ancianita]

47. I never assumed you were muslim. You simply support patriarchal religion here. I'm an atheist,

so I don't. I support women's free will worldwide. You obviously don't. Your father's cred isn't yours anyway, and someone isn't stupid for not being told another poster's background.

[shaayecanaan]

48. I don't

you said that Islam was "worse" than the other patriarchal religions. You then produced a graph apparently contending that India was far and away the worst offender in this regard, although only 14% of Indians are Muslim. But then you insinuated that India's child marriage rate had something to do with having a "sizeable Muslim minority", as though the 85% non-Muslim population had nothing to do with it.

You really can't rationalise with that kind of stupidity.

[ancianita]

49. The difference in maps and graphs is the difference in rates based on populations measured. There

might be conflict across the numbers, but the message, no matter how 'minority' the measured population, is still the same here. The danger to girls and women.

You can present any discrepancies you like and call me stupid, but your snapshot use of India as some measure of my stupidity about Islam is not a defining extrapolation at all. Worldwide, the dangers of Islam to women are greater because they're religion-based, whether in Islamic states or in their minority existence.

You say you don't support patriarchal religion, yet you provide nothing to improve your stance or correct mine. You simply play troll and name call. Unless you have something more constructive to show that indicates your "I don't," I'm through responding to you.

[shaayecanaan]

50. right

The difference in maps and graphs is the difference in rates based on populations measured. There might be conflict across the numbers, but the message, no matter how 'minority' the measured population, is still the same here. The danger to girls and women.

So in other words, Muslims are always to blame for the poor status of women in any given society, even if they constitute only a tiny minority in said society.

Given that Muslims are 14% of the Indian population, and African Americans are 14% of the US population, do you likewise attribute misogyny in America to those angry Black men and their potty-mouthed rap music?

[Skip Intro]

51. Jury rejects alert 7-0.

On Wed May 14, 2014, 06:06 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The difference in maps and graphs is the difference in rates based on populations measured. There
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=191849

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

baseless accusations and attacks something this poster seems to specialize in if you read even just this exchange

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed May 14, 2014, 06:13 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing hide-worthy in the, quite accurate, post in question. SI.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[azurnoir]

52. so you feel that Shaay is is as the poster claims "playing troll"?

do you agree with the OP's claim that all Muslims lie?

[Skip Intro]

54. Not sure the OP claims that, however, I am just a messenger

of jury results in this thread, at the moment at least.

[azurnoir]

55. really do you do this with all juries that you participate in? also what about the troll accusation?

you did not address that why?

here is the all Muslims claim from the OP

Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali accurately note that the majority of muslims worldwide do believe that muslims should live under sharia law. It is strategic on their part to deny this to Westerners. Their critical mass of support for sharia -- a big part of which contains mass belief in the worshipful purity of virginity and hymen protection that keeps mature girls out of Islamic schools -- is the context of a reality of potential violence in America: we must never forget that this heroic woman still has to have body guards while living in America.

[Skip Intro]

56. Many times, yes.

Not sure why that would bother you.

Besides, the jury was unanimous.

I don't see that snip from the OP saying "all" Muslims lie, as you claimed. That just isn't there. However, I do believe that many Muslims world-wide are very much against women, and gays, and non-Muslims. Too many stories and reports of atrocities to ignore. I think we paper over that reality in favor of some PC fantasy at our own peril.

I think that it is disturbing that the woman mentioned has to have body guards to protect her from Muslims here in the USA, if indeed that is the case.

[azurnoir]

57. ayaan hirsi ali is not a girl she is a 44 year old woman who associates with the likes of Pam Geller

and Geert Wilders , as to claims of body guards I would check out the posts that lend doubt as to her veracity on her personal status

all the 0-7 says to me is that some forms of out and out bigotry are acceptable as long as they are cleverly cloaked as concern for women as I stated above IMO Ali uses woman as a vehicle for her bigotry and personal gain, nothing more

[Skip Intro]

58. .

Post corrected, my mistake.

The mistreatment/torture/slaying of women, and gays, and non-Muslims in many Muslim societies is a glaring reality that deserves discussion, imho.

[azurnoir]

60. Even if the person discussing is an associate of Pam Geller and Geert Wilders?

do you similarly approve of using David Duke as a reliable source in a discussion of Israel or Judaism?

[Skip Intro]

61. You argue we should support stoning of women and gays?

I'm not going to play some guilt by association game, as if your success in that pursuit would magically eliminate a reality you'd rather ignore and obscure from view of everyone else.

[azurnoir]

62. you do realize that Jordan also an Islamic country legalized being Gay in 1951?

do you ever question why Somalia and Pakistan are the go-to countries when discussing Islam? Could it be that they are 2 of the most backwards countries on Earth?

what I am against here is the sweeping generalization

[Skip Intro]

63. So gays are welcome in Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Malaysia, Iraq,

Nigeria, Sudan, etc?

[azurnoir]

65. thank you for that answer :)

arcare to name any non-Muslim countries where Gays are not accepted or will you claim that short of Russia there are none?

[Skip Intro]

67. Your refusal to accept reality is your problem, not mine. n/t

[azurnoir]

69. I'm not refusing to accept reality

I'm refusing to accept bigotry even that cloaked in supposed liberalism - bigotry is never liberal

[Skip Intro]

71. You're trying to pass off some deluded fantasy for reality.

And it ain't selling.

I have, however, wasted my last second engaging you.

[azurnoir]

73. there is no fantasy on my part you seem to only be concerned about Gay Rights in so far as they can

used to justify bigotry against Islam while seeming to give equally as offensive non-Mulim countries a pass

[azurnoir]

74. pointing out where you are wrong is deluded fantasy?

I have no fantasies about some Muslim countries having horrible laws concerning women and Gays but that does not mean that it's okay to condemn 1.7 billion people which is what is going on here

[azurnoir]

68. BTW being Gay is legal in Iraq and Bahrain Nigeria is ruled by Christians

[Skip Intro]

70. I've never seen anyone so determined to spin away reality.

it isn't working

Gays are being killed in Iraq. Several Muslim nations have the death penalty for gays, as well as stoning to death rape victims.

You can spin until you're so dizzy you fall over, but it won't change reality.

[azurnoir]

72. Gays are still killed in this country too. Being Gay was legalized in Iraq in 2003

Several non-Muslim countries have similar penalties for being Gay why do you give them a pass?

[azurnoir]

75. one last thing concerning your accusations towards me

take a look at my profile I'm a V&M host if I had wanted this thread shut down I could have alerted it for that, religion is against the V&M SoP and similar threads have been shut down in GD for that reason, no I want it kept front and center -why you may ask- because I think the casual acceptance of Islamophobia on DU is a problem and this thread IMO is a stunning example of just that

There is a problem with human rights across the board and it is mostly in 3rd world countries, my problem is with it being framed as a problem endemic to Islam and only Islam it seems

There is no guilt by association between Ms Ali, Ms Geller and Mr Wilders they are birds of a feather-they make their bread and butter from Islamophobia

[shaayecanaan]

76. I hear that David Duke has to employ bodyguards

Isn't it terrible that the people who oppose him are so gosh-darned violent?

[ancianita]

53. Wow. Thanks for the input. Interesting.

[azurnoir]

59. Tell us have you ever known any Muslim women? I mean besides Ali in case you've met her

and what do they tell you?

Because I have and more than one women who are Egyptian, Lebanese, Somali, and American-including one who freely converted to Islam

NONE of them beleve Ali is anything but a bigot that uses 'concern' for them to ridicule all Muslims including them

[ancianita]

64. Any consensus battle doesn't change the international realities. Your whole strategy of challenging

either Ali's or my credibility misses the whole point of the thread.

You try to defend world realities that most DU'ers can't unsee by trying some battle of "credibility," using muslims as some better authority. That doesn't work here. The scenes of international conflict, their causes, participants and victims are there for all to see. America (and its media) is suffering for its role in all that, as is Islam. Believers are both perpetrators and victims of evils that emerge from those belief systems.

My concern is for women in general and for the long run. Your concern is to divide women around your "issue" about Ali.

A more constructive use of your ideas would be for you to start a thread on whatever it is that you're trying to present here.

[azurnoir]

66. NO I addressed the supposed issue and subject of the thread below and I addressed it to you

for some reason you have not replied but it is nice to see you discount what Muslim women have to say too

[shaayecanaan]

16. Watch the documentary

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 04:49 AM - Edit history (1)

She didn't change her name to escape her husband, and what woman anyway tries to escape her husband by taking on her husband 's name? She changed her name because she was registered as a political refugee under her birth name in Kenya, and Netherlands had laws at the time refusing any visa to refugees that had received asylum in Kenya.

She claimed to be evading her family, and yet she continued to stay in telephone contact with a aunt who was in attendance at her wedding.

Her husband was Canadian, he has since remarried. If she wanted to stay away from her husband she didn't need to do anything other than stay in Kenya. As it was, he visited her in the refugee camp in the Netherlands. When ayaan told him she didn't want to go back to Canada with him, he accepted it and left quietly (her admission). So much for fleeing in terror of her husband.

She didn't "flee" to the Netherlands to escape her husband. He was the one who sent her the plane ticket. Had she not married him she would still be in Kenya to this day.

[Enrique]

19. false

here is a representative of women that is only about a billion times better than Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

[iandhr]

4. Excellent points.

A little more about her for those who do not know.

She worked with Theo van Gogh on a movie c about the treatment of women in Islam. The movie deals with violence against women in some Islamic societies; it tells the stories, using visual shock tactics, of four abused Muslim women. The title, Submission, is a translation of the word "Islam" into English; it refers to Muslims' submission before God. van Gogh was murdered and Ali was forced to go into hiding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)#Murder

Here is a clip of her of CNN talking about the death threats received by the creators of South Park about how Muhammed was depicted in a episode. Jesus, Moses, and Buddha were also depicted in the episode in a less then flattering matter. She makes the point that Stone and Parker did not receive threat from Christians, Buddhists or Jews.

[ancianita]

11. This underscores Ali's claims that no one can deny the seriousness of Islam's dangers to women.

At the 192nd meeting the Council of Islamic Ideology went further and declared that women are un-Islamic and that their mere existence contradicted Sharia and the will of Allah. "Women by existing defied the laws of nature, and to protect Islam and the Sharia women should be forced to stop existing as soon as possible." Women who express their own will (most especially non-Muslim women) will be the first targeted for extermination.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/03/15/comment/coucil-of-islamic-ideology-declares-womens-existence-anti-islamic/

[azurnoir]

15. Council of Islamic Ideology is a functionary body of the Pakistani government only

it has no legal jurisdiction what so ever

Council of Islamic Ideology (Urdu: اِسلامی نظریاتی کونسِل is a constitutional body responsible for giving legal advice on Islamic issues to the Government of Pakistan and the Parliament.

Functions

The council has the following functions:[1]

To recommend laws conforming to Qur'an and Sunnah to the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies.
To advise the Parliament, Government of Pakistan, President of Pakistan, or Governor on any question referred to the Council as to whether a proposed law is or is not repugnant to the Injunctions of Islam.
To make recommendations to bring current laws into conformity with Islamic injunctions.
To compile guidance for the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies.

However, the Government can make a law before advice is furnished by the council. The council is also responsible for submitting an annual interim report, which is discussed in the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies within six months of its receipt.[1] Recently, the Council was strongly criticized in many traditionalist quarters for its recommendations on the procedure for khula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Islamic_Ideology

your chosen article makes claims so ludicrous such as women being disallowed to breathe under Islam that one must surely wonder what your intentions here are -actually no we don't at all

also the accompanying photo came from site my server will not allow access to, it did not come from the article

[shaayecanaan]

41. Make any claim about Islam here and people will believe it...

Women are forbidden to breathe according to Islam - even on a right wing site you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to believe that. Seems that there are plenty of takers here though.

[Enrique]

18. just to give an idea how these people see the "danger of Islam"

they see that danger in such a way as to oppose the creation of the Islamic center near ground zero.

I think these two, especially Ayaan Hirsi Ali, are asking people to think irrationally toward Islam, not rationally.

[ancianita]

21. There is no rational response that an irrational religion deserves. Trying to reason with a religion

that holds that its holy book should be the law of every country in the world isn't worth all the time or multicultural respect that the West's people -- particularly women -- put into it. Western people's best efforts have always been to keep the men of this religion at bay. The fact that capitalism manipulates muslim men toward selling off their countries' resources is another way that is done. In the meantime, they are parasitically dependent on the reproduction and labor of their women to keep them strong.

If all Islam did was organize people's morals, I could accept it. But submission to male dominance, death for sexuality or leaving the religion? No. Their internecine and international believer wars are the bane of human existence.

[Enrique]

22. where do you stand on the so-called "Ground zero mosque"?

just to clarify the implications of your view of Islam. Is it such a danger that the "Ground zero mosque" should not be allowed?

[ancianita]

23. Let's also clarify your view. You I both know that some mosque ANYWHERE in the West is acceptable,

in principle, moreso than is the building of ANY religious meeting place in ANY muslim country, in fact. That locals want to decide through the usual channels is a local matter.

Where do you stand on the so-called "Ground Zero mosque"?

What is this, some cheap litmus test? that implies that the West has organized discrimination equal to that of muslim-dominated countries? It does not.

Where I stand on Islam? I stand on the side of women's inequality with men all over the world, and against any male-dominated organized "system" that breeds, beats and kills women to hold down their equality. In the West, the systems I'm against are any religious, economic, legal or social system that, in effect, does the same thing.

Now. How about you. Let's clarify your view of Islam.

[Enrique]

24. "you and I both know"

however the people you cite in your OP don't know that. I can't argue with them on the issue of women's inequality, but I do argue with their anti-Islam message, which extends to opposing that "Ground zero mosque".

Where do I stand on the "mosque"? Same as you.

Where do I stand on Islam? My view is that Islam is not the same thing as these oppressive regimes that hold down women. I oppose Sharia law without opposing Islam overall.

[ancianita]

25. Then you show that you don't understand Islam as well as you think you do.

You understand Islam the way that Islamics would like you to understand it -- until Islamists become a majority of our population and then impose Islam on the rest of us -- mostly women -- which, no offense, you sound as if you'd put up with, because you're probably not one.

Oh, the levels of sellout to women's interests that go on in the name of 'respect' for religion. I can hardly stop gagging on the smell of privilege that comes with it.

Our position on that mosque's existence is predicated on the safety we both have in Islam remaining a minority religion in this country. Why do I say this? Because. You and I both know that christianity or any other non-Islamic religion are not allowed to exist in Islamic states.

There is not now nor will there ever be "separate but equal" existence of democracy or belief systems in Islamic states as there exists for sharia in the UK right now, with all the attendant social and legal tensions it's experiencing because of its 'multicultural liberalism' right now. Not one non-Islamic church, temple or any other official meeting place for any other religion is allowed in Islamic states. To ignore that reality is to ignore where the demographic climb of Islam leads to within other cultures and legal systems worldwide.

[Enrique]

27. I think you have bought into some vile misinformation

you are getting some facts egregiously wrong, but more important than that, the people you are learning about Islam from have very bad intentions.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a full-fledged neocon, she belongs to the American Enterprise Institute. She is the last person I would give any credence to on the subject of Islam.

The pinnacle of the neocons' accomplishments in this world was the Iraq War. An interesting consequence of that war by the way was to reduce the Christian population in Iraq from 1,500,000 to less than a third of that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq#Post-war_situation

[ancianita]

28. I am only anti-Islam to the extent that Islam is anti- any other religion. Let's tell the truth here

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a woman and so am I. She is against an anti-woman religion and so am I. She speaks out against that religion through any channel afforded her and so do I. She has studied the Koran and so have I (three times, front to back, an 'approved' version).

She is not the only muslim I have ever listened to or read. I have studied Islam at the University of Chicago. I have argued with more UC intellectuals, well intentioned liberals and muslims -- some of them colleagues and friends -- about this religion than you'll ever know. For decades. That doesn't make my knowledge of Islamists infallible, but it helps me to see that when many people struggle to shake off oppressive systems, your use of "vile" here is indefensible, except by how relatively exempted from this fight you sound as if you feel.

I've lived by my politics for the long haul, so that how I vote and live will do the greatest good for the greatest number. That means I'm a feminist. That's why I'm a progressive liberal of DU. I may not be as well read, savvy and articulate as DU counterparts here, but I usually won't argue over my head about topics that they clearly know more about. Islam isn't one of them.

Compared to the larger frame of Ali's struggle, your label of 'neocon' amounts to political niggling, a cheap chipping away at the very real awareness building that people of the West need to have about Islam and those who wish to be freed from it.

I do not believe in anything neocon. I never supported any American incursions into the Middle East or anywhere else. That you claim Ali is a neocon because they give her money and a platform doesn't make her what you call her. You've read that she is a neocon somewhere. We all traffic with fascism in this fascist country; some of us even earn a living from fascists; that doesn't make us fascist. Neither does her unusual position at AEI make her a neocon. Your namecalling shouldn't be repeated without unequivocal proof. That you namecall here, and call what I myself think "vile" makes me sorry for you.

Perhaps you mean well. Yet, I think you're the one allowing a larger "vile" to envelop you in this culture of patriarchal politics. I came to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's position before I ever read all of her books.

I know I am a privileged white woman of the West. But I have, with the means I've been afforded, thought for myself. Judge the danger of a system's adherents by how systematic it is in oppressing those born into it. Think for yourself.

[ancianita]

26. Once again, Enrique:

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/03/15/comment/coucil-of-islamic-ideology-declares-womens-existence-anti-islamic/

[azurnoir]

29. This applies to a body in Pakistan one that holds no legal power what so ever

IMO what you are doing here is comparable to using the Westboro Church as a representative of all Christianity or Kahane Chai as representative all Jews

Using the most extreme and claiming they are the whole

[ancianita]

30. You're right about my implied generalization, wrong about their power, since the Koran is the law

of the land. For a whole country. That part can't be distorted, no matter how you try. And this is a group that gets international silence over their very words, which I will quote again:

“Any woman that exercises her will is haraam, absolutely haraam, and is conspiring against Islam and the Ummah, whereas those women who are totally subservient can reach the status of being makrooh. Such is the generosity of our ideology and such is the endeavour of Muslim men like us who are the true torchbearers of gender equality...“Whether a woman is allowed to breathe or not be left up to her husband or male guardian, and no woman under any circumstance whatsoever should be allowed to decide whether she can breathe or not....”

Yes, child marriage is all over the place; Islam hasn't got a monopoly on it.



Yet, no muslim may debate any of the laws regarding women in any Islamic state. Muslim women elsewhere who do speak out are tolerated and allowed to live as PR examples, but most are not given educations or public forums that would indicate enlightened views toward half the population's alleged equality under Allah.

Again, what was Aisha's age when Muhammad TOOK her as his bride? You think we today should respect him as any model of piety, love and peace for any century? After he conducted how many military jihads and forced conversions?


Each and every time I see or read of atrocities committed against women by Islam, I pay attention. Yes, our media is biased, but it wouldn't even have a chance to be so if so much violence toward women weren't everywhere in the Islamic world. I'll concede that you're right about the child marriage point, but in general you appear here as one of Islam's defenders and accomplices.

Yes, you can nail me on a picture of a scene that really happens in Pakistan, but you won't find any Westboro Baptist Church photos that even come close to this kind of harm to children, nevermind the bagged women shown here. On the whole, from my atheist point of view, you may correct me but you challenge more in defense of the most indefensible religion on the planet.

[azurnoir]

31. Most of the countries on your list are NOT Muslim majority countries

but do feel free to keep spouting it speaks volumes

oh and you must have missed my previous post to you that shows despite your contra factual claims the role of the Council of Islamic Ideology non legally binding role in Pakistan

Council of Islamic Ideology (Urdu: اِسلامی نظریاتی کونسِل is a constitutional body responsible for giving legal advice on Islamic issues to the Government of Pakistan and the Parliament.

Functions

The council has the following functions:

To recommend laws conforming to Qur'an and Sunnah to the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies.
To advise the Parliament, Government of Pakistan, President of Pakistan, or Governor on any question referred to the Council as to whether a proposed law is or is not repugnant to the Injunctions of Islam.
To make recommendations to bring current laws into conformity with Islamic injunctions.
To compile guidance for the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies.

However, the Government can make a law before advice is furnished by the council. The council is also responsible for submitting an annual interim report, which is discussed in the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies within six months of its receipt. Recently, the Council was strongly criticized in many traditionalist quarters for its recommendations on the procedure for khula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Islamic_Ideology


oh and you do realize

[ancianita]

32. Oh yes, please post links from all the "strongly criticized...traditionalist quarters...on the [male

defined] procedure for khula"!

The fact is that most of the countries on the above chart have either sizable Muslim minorities or majorities or Islamic states -- 70%.

[azurnoir]

37. Khula is the Muslims woman's right to demand divorce

and take a look around most divorce laws every where are written by men - who do you think came up with no fault divorce in this country? Tell us who does that serve best men or women, especially older woen?

[ancianita]

38. That's it! All that "criticism from many tradionalist quarters! Your "fair and balanced" defense!

And so "to the point" of the thread!

[azurnoir]

39. what are you talking about? and just who are you quoting? not me that's for sure

the very premise of your thread is rather far fetched in fact Islam has been for many years so concentrated on as THE SOURCE of danger for women that all other have been largely ignored

ever hear of bride burning? not a Muslim thing is it?
FGM is not as claimed a tradition of Islam-it predates Islam by a few millennia and Eritrean women who are Christians are subject to it along with women of tribal religions and yes Islamic women are too

what religion requires a woman to have her ex-husbands permission to remarry and if she fails to obtain this permission, which can be denied for any whim of the mans, her remarriage will be deemed invalid and any children produced will be declared illegitimate, a label that carries harsh consequences for the children-is it Islam?

[ancianita]

33. Silence. No surprise. This map shows even more about the top ten child marriage countries.

India
Bangladesh
Nigeria
Brazil
Ethiopia
Pakistan
Indonesia
Democratic Republic of Congo
Mexico
Niger



The danger to women -- who never start wars, who represent 65% of the world's labor but 15% of the world's wealth, who represent the smallest minority in prisons and governments -- has multiple causes, not the least of which are male-dominated systems, not the least of which are religions, not the least of which is Islam.

[azurnoir]

34. the countries with high levels of security for women also happen to have large Muslim minorities

and yes third world countries do tend to have lower security for women along with everybody else

as to women never starting wars Margret Thatcher comes to mind

andd silence on my part???????

[ancianita]

35. Great! Yes, there's always Thatcher. Nice try for the "fair and balanced" outlook.

Aw, the rofl smilie is cute.

Yet you're still silent about the posting all that recent criticism "from many traditionalist quarters" that Pakistan's lightweight council drew when it declared women unfit to live except by the grace of men.

[azurnoir]

36. I was not silent about that at all in fact I posted twice about it

do you think people do not read the entire thread? in fact I do including replies from others it helps keep track of things

[Sam Cobb]

77. azurnior

This guy keeps defending terrorists, homophobes, and bigots. Stop being an apologist for evil and defending militant islam. You are not a liberal. There is no denying the bigotry of Islam, it is most certainly not a religion of peace. And telling by your profile pic you only care about Islam prevailing rather than liberal values, which are contradictory to islam.