Putin's Russian invaders shelling the Ukrainian airport in Donetsk

[uhnope]

Last edited Mon Jan 19, 2015, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

and

Some history:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-russia-novoazovsk-crimea.html?_r=0

DONETSK, Ukraine — Determined to preserve the pro-Russian revolt in eastern Ukraine, Russia reinforced what Western and Ukrainian officials described as a stealth invasion on Wednesday, sending armored troops across the border as it expanded the conflict to a new section of Ukrainian territory.

The latest incursion, which Ukraine’s military said included five armored personnel carriers, was at least the third movement of troops and weapons from Russia across the southeast part of the border this week, further blunting the momentum Ukrainian forces have made in weakening the insurgents in their redoubts of Donetsk and Luhansk farther north. Evidence of a possible turn was seen in the panicky retreat of Ukrainian soldiers on Tuesday from a force they said had come over the Russian border.

Russia, which has denied it is helping the insurgents, did not acknowledge the military movements. But the Russians have signaled that they would not countenance a defeat of an insurgency in the heavily Russian eastern part of Ukraine, which would amount to a significant domestic political setback for President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in his increasingly fractious relationship with the United States and its European allies.

[MattSh]

1. You trust a Youtube channel named Ukraine War News?

With the official Ukraine emblem?

Ever thought that they might be just a little bit biased? Or are they totally truthful because they parrot what the NY Times says? Or rather the NY Times parrots what official Ukraine government sources say?

[another_liberal]

4. Remember: It's not propaganda if it's anti-Russian.

So, this must be totally true, right?




(sarcasm)

[Ford_Prefect]

2. So are we watching a war that is NOT happening?

Are we watching Putin's troops? Are they Ukrainian Government troops? Are they"irregular" troops in uniforms that are intended to hide the fact of their allegiance to either side? Are they Fascist militia?

My real question is who is who in all this??????????????????????????????

It seems a bit like the situation in Syria or Libya, or Mali in that you cannot tell who the players are and what their mission really is. You can only see the carnage and observe that regardless of intention of the warring factions (those who are actually shooting) anyone caught in the middle has a very short life expectancy.

Why have you posted these here uhnope? What is your point? Please explain because it is not obvious either way?

War p#rn is always ugly no matter who holds the camera.

[another_liberal]

3. At least he isn't trying to hand us a bunch of "propaganda," right?

I mean, it's clearly anti-Russian, so it can't be propaganda. Now can it?




(yes, sarcasm)

[uhnope]

6. thank you for your polite inquiry

I have updated the OP to give it context.

To answer your question, one point was to answer this video thread (a handful of DUers are engaged in agitprop by posting Russia Today videos sympathetic to Putin's Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine) : http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=238873

I don't think the attack on Ukraine and the war there is similar to Syria. Russia troops invaded after the Ukrainian Maidan protests ended up with a collapse of the pro-Russia government. (You can read about Maidan here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html)

It's more comparable to Hitler's invasion of neighboring countries, when he used the excuse of German-speaking populations in those countries.

[Ford_Prefect]

7. My problem is that none of the men in the videos is identified by his uniform.

It is not clear at all that these gunmen are soldiers or not, or what subdivision or affiliation they represent.

My point about Syria is just the same: We often see video allegedly of various fighters but often it is only several men with guns or other weapons who do not have on distinct uniforms nor appear to be part of a recognizable army unit. We then can only go by what the presenter claims.

I don't speak Russian or any other language of that region. I have no reason to believe any of the video allegedly from the area as from a reliable source. You initially presented no proofs or even a source citation.

You may well have a point about agitprop.

I have no doubts about Putin and his intentions. He is as ruthless as any who held the office before him. Anything he can get away with will suit him just fine.

However you still cannot tell a player (in a video from there) without a score card and at least 3 witnesses, or so it seems...

[uhnope]

8. you are right. nt

[snappyturtle]

5. Unrec. Much ado about whatever. nt

[freshwest]

9. Same dreary scenes, destroying civil infrastructure that won't be rebuilt, creating impoverishment

and facilitating oligarchs getting richer from the vacuum created. At least in this video, it appears no one was killed. And it's your right to counter agitprop promoted here supporting only one side in this conflict.

The problem for Americans trying to decipher what is going on there, is we believe, or the majority do, that the borders should remain the same. It seemed there was a long period of denial until the USSR fell and borders changed to reflect self-determination, a key part of FDR's post-WW2 plan.

That was followed by a long period in which that paradigm appears to be inevitable. Now it no longer is, and the same forces that existed before WW2 have gathered resources to get back to what they consider as more natural, oligarchical rule. Propaganda and ill-advised actions weakened the resolve of nation states and the very idea of individual rights and even of democracy itself.

It's no longer being protected as civil societies are being attacked from the outside as well as the inside. This may be part of the paradox of Ukraine. They had a more modern nation in the past but have fallen as the USA may, from following older traditions and associations that are very busy making government the exclusive property of the super rich. This is a world wide phenomenon.