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Related: About this forumRussia bombed hospital eight months ago in Ukraine. Never admitted responsibility. War crime???
Bodies of victims killed in the attack lay outside the hospital under blankets
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happyslug
(14,779 posts)Thus if this Hospital was BOMBED it was by Ukrainian forces? Thus why would Russia Apologize for a war crime committed by Ukrainian forces against people Russia supports?
https://www.rt.com/news/310191-donetsk-ukrainian-forces-shelling/
This reminds me of the famous photo from the Spanish Civil War that Hearst ran with the Caption of Communists shooting down supporters of Franco, when it was a photo of Franco's troops shooting communists. As Hearst is reported to say about the Spanish suppression of Cuba in the 1890s. "Send me the pictures, and I will furnish the war".
GeorgeGist
(25,306 posts)if the perpetrator admitted responsibility?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And what is disturbing is that you try to use this, which was not a Russian bombing of a hospital, as a deflection to try to justify our war crime actions.
Just what is your game?
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)from uhnope?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 7, 2015, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)
"the West".
You want to see some crap, check out what the apologists for the fascism in Russia post around here. Check out your interlopers here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1040870
happyslug
(14,779 posts)This hospital is in the DOMBASS, the area in REVOLT against the Ukraine. Thus Russia had no reason to bomb it, for it was WITHIN the rebels lines. Thus this hospital was hit by UKRAINIAn bombs or shells (RT claims it was Ukrainian Artillery Shells).
Sorry you whole line of attack died when you mentioned the city this hospital was in, and any quick research would have shown it to have, since April 2014, within the Rebels Lines. If Russia was flying planes or firing shells (Things Moscow denies) why would they hit something behind their own lines? No this is the result of Ukrainian Shelling and as such it is still a War Crime but you have to put the blame of Kyiv NOT Moscow.
"Курица — не птица, Болгария — не заграница"
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Bulgaria was known to be pro Russian even in Tsarist days. While Bulgaria did support Hitler during WWII, once the Red Army overran Bulgaria, it became a very loyal Soviet Ally. On the other hand what has that to do with the fact this is a Hospital that was shell when it was BEHIND the Rebel lines in the Ukraine? You are demanding that Russia apologize for a Ukrainian War Crime. The pro Russian forces in Donetsk had no reason to shell the hospital, all they had to do was enter it and destroy it directly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk
Both the BBC and CNN reported that the Hospital was shelled, but refused to say by who. The Britsh paper the Telegraph, says the Hospital was in rebel held territory, but refused to say who did the shelling:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11389367/Ukraine-crisis-shell-hits-Donetsk-hospital.html
This Russian cite, which includes the video you posted, says it was shelling on Rebel held territory:
https://storify.com/reportedly/geolocating-a-hospital-shelling-in-ukraine-s-donet
Sorry, shelling a hospital is a war crime, but most armies do NOT shell their own hospitals if they can help it. Thus the shelling appears to have been Ukrainian, and based on the location probably from the infamous Azoz Battalion who are NOT even following orders from Kyiv. Kyiv has cracked down on Azoz Battalion in recent months, withdrawing them from the Front and slowly converting them to a Regular Ukrainian Army unit, but its reputation was so bad that even the US Congress pass a resolution forbidding any US Aid going to that unit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
The Azoz Battalion claim over 50% of its troops are from the Eastern Ukraine. That is possible, the revolt is more from the Russian Speaking Cities and Coal "Patches" then from the Ukrainian Speaking farms. The Eastern Ukraine is the major Coal Mining Area of the Ukraine. If you studied US mining history, underground mining leads to massive support for each other and a tendency to think alike for that is needed to stay alive underground. In the US mines immigrants quickly learned English for knowing a common language increase safety (and one of the anti-union activity used by coal mine owners was to hire immigrants who spoke different languages so they could not talk to each other about unionization). Many a mining family refused to teach they Children they own language for they saw the difference in language as a tool used by mine owners to break miners solidarity. Thus in the US speaking English even at home became the norm among miners. I see the same trend in the Mines of the Eastern Ukraine, the miners may be majority Ukrainian, but once in the mines speaking Russian was seen as a safety matter and to make sure they spoke Russian even in the mines they did the same at home. Thus when you look at the fighting in the Eastern Ukraine, it is Russian Speakers who are in revolt, not just people who claim to be of Russian Nationality.
In the Cities you tended to see more people claiming Russian Nationality then in the Coal Patches, but the affect of what was happening in the Mines lead to most of the people speaking Russian, even as they claim to be Ukrainian Nationality. You see this in Western Pennsylvania. The largest single dialect in the US extends from Northern West Virginia to I-80 then East to Allegheny Mountain and then West to just across the Ohio and West Virginia Border. It matches up with the bituminous coal maps of the same area. Thus Western Pennsylvania speak one dialect because that was the dialect learned in the coal mines of Western Pennsylvania. This dialect extended to the Steel Mills of Pittsburgh, for that is where the coal ended up.
Thus the Eastern Ukraine speak Russian for the same reason the people of Western Pennsylvania speak the same dialect, Coal. Those same Coal Miners may vote differently when NOT threatened, but when Threatened they tend to vote as one solid block. Again using Western Pennsylvania as an example, Obama won solid 40% of the votes in Rural Western Pennsylvania counties in 2012, that with a War on Coal, talk that Obama will take the Coal Miners Deer Rifles away from them, and Abortion (all hot topics for Miners). Obama's race hurt him in Western Pennsylvania, Senator Bob Casey received 5 to 8 percentage more votes then Obama in those same Western PA Counties (I blame the difference in votes on the lingering affect of the use of African Americans as Strike breakers during the vary nasty 1928 Coal Strike, African Americans were recruited during the strikes but NOT told of the Strike till their arrived and by then it was to late for them to go back home, thus a strong anti-African attitude among coal miners and their families, a hatred that lasts to this day in some families. I mention for it is different from the hatred of African Americans you see in the South and in inner cities, crime is cited but the hatred is deeper then an fear of crime, it is the fear of losing one's source of Income and that goes back to the 1928 coal strike).
Those percentage for Obama would have been higher, if Obama was seen as being more pro union and for doing something to get the country going, but Obama's efforts to get the economy going had no or little affect on those rural communities and their responded with their votes. on the other hand, those same Voters, will support each other during a strike or other threat to them. I see the same thing in the Eastern Ukraine, those coal miners and others will vote for various candidates but if threatened they will group together and fight as one. I see the later coming into play in the Ukraine, those coal miners decided as a group the overthrow of the previous government was an attack on them, thus they must act as one against the danger. Russia may or may not be helping them (is suspect Russia is, but Russia is denying it is providing such help) but it is only due to a pre-existing group that formed and took charge. Moscow's control over the rebels is weak, but at the same time support of the Rebels for Putin is strong (they see Putin as their protector). Thus Putin has some say in what goes on in the Eastern Ukraine, but he is NOT in control. The area went into revolt for its own reasons and being a coal mining area, once it was decided to revolt, even people who opposed the decision would fight with and support their fellow coal miners.
Just some comments that this revolt in the Eastern Ukraine is more then a Russian Plot to take over the Ukraine. Those Coal Miners desires HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED and the present Government in Kyiv has refused to do so. Thus that leaves two options, a violent suppression of the revolt OR the revolt leads to an independent nation (and annexation into the Russian Federal Republic). In many ways it is up to the present Ukrainian government to decide which it will be, but the present government dislikes the choice so has decided to do neither. The present Government does NOT have the resources to suppress the rebels but will not deal with them. That is a recipe for this fight to linger for years. Putin has proposed a settlement, federation, but the Ukrainian Government has refused that offer. Thus we return to the ability to suppress, which the Ukraine does not have. Thus bring us back to the present Ukrainian Government talking to the Rebels, which they refuse to do and we start all over again. This will last for years until either the Ukrainian government gets its act together and suppresses the revolt, talk to the rebels and come to terms with the rebels (Probably on some terms of federation, or the rebels decides to declare independence and Russia recognizes them as independent and the border becomes a de facto national border that the Ukraine refuses to acknowledge, but everyone else will treat as real. The best solution is some sort of federation so the Eastern Ukraine feels that it can protect itself within the political structure of the Ukraine, but the next best choice is de facto independence. Kyiv hates both options, but Kyiv's refusal to even discuss the options with the rebels may end being the decision that de facto independence is the way to go.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)And anyone that questions your spin job is a conspiracy theorist or a fascist lover.
A real with us or against us Bush clone.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 11, 2015, 09:21 PM - Edit history (1)
Tell us what you think of Putin and his gay-bashing anti-democratic regime, since you claim not to be a fan.
Don't forget to mention
-the anti-gay laws and demonizing gays
-the deaths and imprisonment of journalists
-the deaths and imprisonment of liberals and opposition figures
-the dismantling of the independent media
-the "Nashi" Kremlin & crony sponsored Putin Youth of who harass & beat Putin opponents & those resisting shakedowns
-the talk of "New Russia" as part Russia expanding by taking over other countries
-the lies that Russia does not have soldiers in Ukraine
-Putin's theft of millions of rubles, starting with food aid money while St. Petersburg starved in the 1990s
-the neo-nazi gangs that terrorize gays, liberals, judges and journalists--and that has been tied to Putin's advisor
I'll be glad to provide links to any of these. Here's one, while we're waiting.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)It is up to you to prove that Russia bombed that hospital, and you just ignored it when someone pointed out that they did not.
And being caught in that you decide to change the discussion to something else. And give us a list of things that most are not proven either, expecting me to chase you around on it.
Not going to happen.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)for these things. It wouldn't be difficult at all.
You seem to have a big problem with doing that. Hmmmm. I wonder what that means.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)AFYI I am not eager to condemn anyone or anything...If I liked that sort of thing I would become a shit house preacher.
And I am not so insecure that that kind of social pressure will work on me...save if tor those who are insecure in their belief and worry about what people on the internet thinks of them.
closed
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)the if the Ruskies do it, we can too.
schoolyard logic. also the russians probably didn't do it.
but it fits the basic distraction game of "oh, look at THESE bad people and not us".
Putin, slimeball that he is, murderer that he is, and really bad guy that he is, is STILL acting
more responsibly than Obama in Ukraine and Syria.
as for Hillary- a no-fly zone against the russians? OMG!
