MH17 2nd anniversary: Russian troops look for fighter jet, instead find civilian plane they downed

[uhnope]

Last edited Mon Jul 18, 2016, 06:21 AM - Edit history (1)

There were 298 civilians, 80 of them children, on MH17.

[jtuck004]

1. 1988 - United States Shoots Down Iranian Airliner - 290 adults and children dead. Tries Cover Up

Hit 'em 6 miles away.

I wonder if they got medals like our folks did?

Maybe we should fin all find other ways to influence policy besides missiles.

...
After the 1988 incident, American officials told various lies and blamed the Iranian pilot. Not until eight years later did the U.S. government compensate the victims’ families, and even then expressed “deep regret,” not an apology.
...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/the_vincennes_downing_of_iran_air_flight_655_the_united_states_tried_to.html

[uhnope]

2. classic whataboutism & false equivalency BS

The US immediately admitted their mistake. Russia continues to lie and blame others this day

But I hope you earned a gold star at the farm

[TiberiusB]

3. W.T.F.?

The incident involving the Vincennes and Iran Air flight 655 is well documented. There was indeed an attempted cover up and it took 8 years before an international court resolved the dispute between the U.S. and Iran. None of which excuses Russia's actions, but seriously, if you are talking about something that in anyway reflects poorly on the U.S. military, count on a cover up.

[uhnope]

4. the US immediately admitted they accidentally shot down a passenger plane

Russia continues to this day two years later to deny responsibility.

There's no comparison.

[TiberiusB]

5. The U.S. lied to the press right off the bat

They admitted to the downing, but buried their admission in an avalanche of false claims, all in an attempt to pin the blame on the Iranian pilot and Iranian government.

They claimed the flight was descending towards the Vincennes, like a fighter jet on an attack vector. It wasn't.

They claimed it was "squawking" on a military channel. It wasn't.

They claimed it was outside commercial flight routes. It wasn't.

The cherry on top, the Vincennes was in Iranian waters, not international waters, as claimed.

[uhnope]

6. No, that's not true

The admission was not "buried". It was the main thing. The US had made a horrible and tragic mistake--that was clear from the beginning and onward. So there is no comparison to the Russian gov's horrible denialism about this. Let's not forget that the denialism is part of Russia's invasion and occupation of Ukraine, which they also totally lied about, pretending the soldiers weren't Russian

[TiberiusB]

7. All true

The U.S. claimed the incident was a justifiable shooting and absolutely worked to cover up the truth. The two events, the Russian and the American, are comparable. Where they differ is in how each nation handled the aftermath. You can insist that simply admitting to wrong doing is enough, but it's quite another to take responsibility for your actions. The U.S. effectively said "yeah, we killed a bunch of people, but it's the Iranians fault".

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study

Then Vice President George Bush had gone before the United Nations on 14 July and declared, "One thing is clear, and that is that USS Vincennes acted in self-defense…It occurred in the midst of a naval attack initiated by Iranian vessels against a neutral vessel and subsequently against the Vincennes when she came to the aid of the innocent ship in distress."

As it came to pass, none of this was true.

[uhnope]

8. this is getting ridiculous

Last edited Tue Jul 26, 2016, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)

look, I know you want to take Russia's side always and bash the US any chance you get, but you're actually saying these things are comparable:

1. Oops we shot down a civilian airliner yesterday.
vs.
2. two years of: OMG someone not us shot down a civilian airliner, it must have been our enemies, yeah our enemies were trying to shoot down our president's plane and they shot down a civilian airliner instead! Yeah okay that last one maybe not but it wasn't us! Maybe our enemies posing as us! Maybe our enemies did it on purpose to blame it on us! Because it's all a plot by western forces to make us look bad because no way could we make this mistake and shoot down a civilian airliner nonono

[TiberiusB]

9. Sooo, no response to my uncontestable evidence then

look, I know you want to take Russia's side always and bash the US any chance you get, but you're actually saying these things are comparable:

Is this the time for the "I'm rubber, you're glue" part of the debate? I frequently get this mixed up with "you're a poopyhead" and "I know you are, but what am I". My debate skills haven't been all that sharp since 2nd grade.

Your version of history is a bit truncated.

Here, I'll help:

U.S.: Oops we shot down an airliner yesterday but it wasn't our fault because the Iranians are to blame and the shoot down was entirely justified. Did I mention these were Iranians? After 8 years I guess we should throw some money to the families we tore apart, our bad.

Russia: Oops a plane got shot down, but it wasn't us. It was them. Not our fault this all went south, it's some other bad person's fault. Rinse. Repeat.

In both cases, a civilian airliner was mistakenly shot down by the military. Each government responded in an effort to deflect blame. In the case of the U.S., the government tried to blame the incident on the Iranians initially, but did eventually grudgingly take responsibility for the incident...in court. The Russians have effectively blamed everybody to some degree and refuse to accept their role in shooting down the airliner. Two governments engaged in an effort to deflect blame and avoid taking responsibility for a horrific mistake. Almost sounds, what's the word....comparable. Russia's actions are the more reprehensible, obviously, but the Vincennes incident was hardly "Oops we shot down a civilian airliner yesterday."

Now excuse me, Dostoyevsky isn't going to read himself and my Borshch is getting cold.