Europe Change Of Borders

[dipsydoodle]

[unblock]

1. more information than some people get out of an entire semester of european history!

[Bucky]

13. Uh, yeah, assuming you mean the people who sleep through class.

This video only leaves out the personalities, the technology, the religions, the ideologies, the dynasties, the climatic inflences, the social changes, the economic changes, and all of the geographic information except for the names of the nation-states.

[unblock]

14. i wasn't talking about you ;)

[xtraxritical]

2. Gawd, how many wars this must have involved? Denmark and Sweden appear to be the most stable.

[Xithras]

5. Yep. You're looking at millions and millions of deaths.

Nearly every border shift in Europes history involved a war. At a minimum, every war kills most of the soldiers fighting on the losing side. Most kill far more than that.

It's a cool video, but it's also a testament to our long history of pointlessly slaughtering each other to get control of a few miles of dirt.

[valerief]

16. And all done to make rich people richer--the most important thing in the world. nt

[Bucky]

12. Vikings

don't fuck with 'em

[oldironside]

3. Mad, isn't it.

Just watch Germany in the middle ages and you'll realise why there is a castle pretty much every hundred yards along the Rhine. Any tin pot little knight could have his own country. A megalomaniac's dream!

[dipsydoodle]

4. In the middle ages

Germany looked like a packet of M & M's on the map and Belgium had yet to become boring.

To appreciate the time line I think its necessary to check out key events like when Castille and Aragon united to become Spain - 1516. No I didn't know that : looked it up

[oldironside]

10. Some bits are easy to spot...

... but it's the stuff I didn't know that was the most interesting. Who knew Lithuania was that big in the Middle Ages?

Here are the landmarks I spotted. The whole thing starts around the 9th century and around 0.04 you can see England taken over by Normandy. That's the Norman Conquest of 1066. The Golden Horde Mongols started in 1225.The bit where Germany explodes into a kaleidoscope is the Treaty Of Westphalia in 1648. Around this time you can also see England take over Ireland. When England are Scotland unite under the Act of Union, that's 1800. When Prussia finally seems to absorb Germany, that's 1871, and a second or so later Italy is unified. The two World Wars are also quite easy to spot. Given the amount of time the History Channel gives to WW2, it's amazing how short it was when you view it in the great scheme of things.

[JDPriestly]

23. Note that in I think the 14th century, the English lost their properties in France.

And that was kind of the beginning of the concept of the nation state --
France becoming a nation more or less contiguous from sea to the Rhine with some exceptions.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. "In the middle ages Germany looked like a packet of M & M's on the map"

Last edited Mon Sep 3, 2012, 10:14 PM - Edit history (1)

This was the time of kingdoms that extend only to visible geography, like a mountain range. "Ruler of all you survey" crap. The whole economy was based on serving the king and protecting his treasure because you lived better under a rich king. It's the same mindset we see from Republicans today in their worship of the wealthy and their assumption that their wealth makes your life better.

[pansypoo53219]

6. i want some dates. where's the time line.

and i wish easier to read names of empires + shit.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Put it onto full screen

and just watch for name changes. Then wiki the name change to find approx. date of occurence.

[polly7]

8. Wow. Fascinating to watch! nt.

[Diclotican]

9. dipsydoodle

dipsydoodle

But then again - Europe is a old continent - over 2000 year old - with a lot of different cultures, different tribes, who evolved into the nation states we have today in Europe. Everyone of this nations, have had their share of wars - and monarch who decided to go to war, or to loose wars - as the time goes... And as other have pointed out, millions and millions of people have been killed, by wars - or by illness following wars.. Europe have also be the battleground over the last 2000 year, of empires (as your video shows), and in the end no empire won - even Great Britain lost their empire - even though on a whole different form than before.. Some historians say, it is the only empire who managed to dissolve without killing of the "mother land"... UK is still there - and part of "the good company"..

And if you know little history, you also will know, that the different parts of Europe, have also have a lot of different tribes who from the late 280, and forward until the late 1000 AD, was criss-crossing the continent, after plunder, or after trade - or just after a place to settle down after been thrown out of their own home places...

And now, after the cold war and all that - we are still a continent who evolve as time goes by, I would say Europe is maybe one of the most vibrant, and interesting continents there is - even with all the wars, the millions killed, all the illness and pestinels.. Europe of today, is the result of everyone else, who have lived, worked, and died over the last couple of millimenia... I suspect the future Will be as interesting as the past have been - but hopefully less violent than the past...

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

24. Yes. Many of the changes we saw on that video were achieved through war.

Some were achieved at the end of wars through peace treaties.

National boundaries are not sacrosanct. They are human inventions -- agreements and decrees.

People complain that Israel somehow is illegitimate. But the fact is that Israel is no more an artificial construct than many other countries. German-speaking people lived all over Eastern Europe for a couple of hundred years in some cases. But after WWII, they were pretty much either forced to move toward Western Europe or to assimilate somehow. Some were just placed in prison camps or moved.

The US took Indian lands. But as we see from the map in the video, that was simply the way things were done for many centuries. You just took over the land of others if you were powerful enough. And of course countries united in that smaller land units began to work together and accept the government of a king or other sort of central rule.

Americans do not see the world that way. Our country spread across a continent and is defined by what Americans perceive to be a static geographical definition.

Of course, Europe and the US are now hosting immigrants and guest workers who are changing the faces of our countries and continents. Our very borders could change as have those in Europe. I am not advocating for that sort of change. I am just acknowledging that we have seen many such changes in Europe and on other continents in the past centuries. It could happen here. Who knows?

[Diclotican]

25. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

Most borders in Europe have changed, either by wars itself, or by peace treaties at the end of wars - or by kings or princes who somehow deiced to give away land, or to be given land by other kings and princes - and therefore make peace posibile... Germany is a country who have changed face over the last 800 year many times.. From the Holly Roman Empire - to the small Brandenburg monarchy who was the start of the modern Germany who in the 1700s, and 1800s, should rise from ashes a few times, to be one of the biggest nations in Europe by the end of 1870s.. The united Germany (without Austria, who was denied access after Marshall Otto von Bismarck (not the battleship, but the person) said no.. was by 1870, a great economical, political and military power - and also one of the nations who wanted to make itself a center of most things - by 1914, with the help of a nationalist in Austria-Hungary, who killed off the Crown Prince of the Austria-Hungary empire it ended in a war, who ended first 4 year after - and where germany got the fault, even though it was not exactly their fault germany got involved - alliances, and ambitions of wars who had been in the air since 1890s was helpfully with that...

After WW1, and maybe specially WW2 many nations in the east, either expelled their german citizens - who was punished for being more then friendly with Nazi-Germany when they occupied most of east europe between 1940-45, or they had to assimilate somehow - something that very seldom happened.. For the most part they was thrown out - even not asked to leave - the military forces just come - and trow them out - and the property given to others - or nationalized if the property was worth enough... Some ended up in prison camps - and then thrown out of the country. The aftermath of WW2 was tragic for german presence in eastern europe as just few minorities today exist of the once rather great minority of german speaking in east europe.. I believe one of the few places where german still is spoken is in Hungary - where a small minority still make a living and prosper in fact - regardless of the official line of the Hungary government, who is for the most part rather nationalistic this days..

It was a long way from the more tribal dominated places, to the modern europe of today.. It tooks ex france a couple of hundreds of years before it was one king - and one government - and even then, it took a couple of hundreds of years, before the real administration was in the power on the central government.. The Whole way until 1789, it was counties in France who was more or less in depended of the central government - and Paris.. They even had their own taxes and laws, who was older than the state of France.. And the same is the history of most European nations of today. Most of the modern nations, doesn't even existed a few centuries ago.. My own nation Norway, in modern time is just over 100 year - as it got independent from Sweden in 1905..

Dividing of US into a few, or many nations, in the future is absolutely a possibility - no one know for sure what the future hold - and we also doesn't know what a civil war could end up.. As we know - many militias and on the extreme right crave for the day when they can go to attack on the federal government.

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

28. Thanks Diclotican.

So true. Americans generally don't read European or world history. I find it fascinating but by no means know what I should or would like to know.

Migrations are constantly taking place all over the world.

I don't know whether you saw the Democratic Convention's first night of speeches. If you did, you just about saw the world.

Not that long from now, you will not think of the US as a country of European immigrants. It simply isn't any more. And all the better for it.

This year, we are making a huge decision. Will the American people continue to share in the task of self-determination? Will we continue to have representative government and a democracy, however imperfect? Or will we cede leadership to a self-centered elite? This is a make-or-break year for the US.

I'm out there working to try to salvage what we can of democracy. I hope that the Democrats succeed and are able to inspire the country to demand a continuation of self-government by the people.

[Diclotican]

29. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

To me at least, it looks like many americans, doesn't care about the world - that be outside their own state, who by large is bigger than most european country's by the way!. Or maybe believe it to be the fact that the history outside of the US somehow doesn't matter.. It does.. So many americans who live today, is descending from emigrants who emigrated, from all over the place - but also from Europe, who for one reason or the another emigrated to what become the United States of america..

I saw a little from he Democratic Conventions, it was little to late for me, so I have looked for the most part by you tube - it looks the whole world war on stage there .. But that is what US is all about - a melting pot of sorts, who over the last 234 years have reshaped what it is to be an american many times over.. From the 1600s to today the american colonies, and then the United States of America have reshaped itself so many times...

I just hope, from my corner of the world, that the US manage to vote for "the right guy" this time around. I hope for 4 more years from Obama/Biden, as they are the two best qualified for the job at the moment.. I think Romney/Ryan would devastate the US so much that no enemy abroad would have dreamed of doing it.. GWB/Cheney did a great job of devastating the US as it is - it is starting to grow the illnesses we had after 8 year with that disaster - but I doubt US, and the world would survive another Bush in the White House to be honest.. I just believe mr Romney is not the right man for the job - not because he is member of the LDS Church - rather that he have acted in a way not suitable for a President of a important nation like the US.. Hell, he would not have a Chance even here in Norway to be honest... Even with all his money..

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

31. Thanks, Diclotican. It's so great that you bring a European perspective to DU. Thanks.

[Diclotican]

32. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

Thank you - for letting me give you a european perspective on DU. It is a great place to be, even when we are not in agreement

Diclotican

[Bucky]

11. At three minutes in, I'm like, "Oh shit, here come the nazis!"

But watching the little Byzantine Empire shrink down to nothing made me sad.

[Diclotican]

30. Bucky

Bucky

The little Byzantine empire lasted for over 1000 years - often with a violent and brutal streak - but it was also one of the places to go, if you wanted to have great education in the middle ages - and it was not until the great chis ma between the Roman Catholic Church, and the Greek Orthodox Church by the end of the year 1000 AD, that it ended rather nasty between the two church - and it was not mended before a couple of years ago - or at least that the two churches agreed on being in disagreement of the issue.. And even then, the roman empire in the east - survived until may 9 1453, when Constantinople fall to the ottomans - something that shacked the foundations of the western europe - but also was given a lot of refugees who kick started what become the new critical thinkings in the rest of Europe..

Diclotican

[ellenfl]

15. awesome job. i would love to see a slowed version w/timeline. eom

[burrowowl]

17. Nice find!

[DemzRock]

18. I agree it's cool, but it does need a date clock or timeline. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

19. Nothing quite like white on white violence.

[3128]

20. pre-Bismark Germany is my favorite.

[limpyhobbler]

22. Try muting the sound on that video and playing this song in the background instead.

Gives it a different feel.

[HopeHoops]

27. I am SO not doing that. I'll have nightmares.

[HopeHoops]

26. I just wish they had put a year-clock in the upper left corner. I love that clip.