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greenman3610

(3,947 posts)
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 04:20 PM Sep 2022

Why Clean energy means less mining




I spoke to Jim Krane at Rice University, who has just completed a study looking at comparative demands for mining from a gigawatt capacity of coal, vs wind on the Texas Grid.

The findings? After 20 years, you would have to mine 5 times as material to keep the coal plant operating, compared to the wind power, and the ratio keeps improving as long as you run the wind turbines. Newer turbines are rated to last 25 to even 40 years.

In addition, I looked at the issue of lithium vs coal. One trope from the anti-clean energy tribe is that clean energy is not a net gain, because you still have to mine for things like lithium for energy storage. I point out that as of. 2020 we were mining 100,000 times more coal than lithium, and that newer processes will be able to produce significant fractions of global lithium demand with no mining impacts.
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Why Clean energy means less mining (Original Post) greenman3610 Sep 2022 OP
If one is comparing it to coal, possibly. If on the other hand, one is comparing wind to clean... NNadir Sep 2022 #1
Funny how someone would call nuclear Eko Sep 2022 #2
Funny how people who whine about so called "nuclear waste" are unable to identify someone killed... NNadir Sep 2022 #3
Ha Ha,, Eko Sep 2022 #4
Oh, I see, anti-nukes take baths in coal waste, do they? NNadir Sep 2022 #5
At no time or place did I say coal was clean. Eko Sep 2022 #6
Um...um...um...unbelievable...simply unbelievable. NNadir Sep 2022 #7
What's amusing Eko Sep 2022 #8
What's disgusting is the weak effort to hide responsibility behind chanting drivel. NNadir Sep 2022 #9
Facts do indeed matter. Eko Sep 2022 #10
I expect my son to work after completing his Ph.D on the recovery of valuable materials from used... NNadir Sep 2022 #11
I'll answer your question Eko Sep 2022 #12
Really? NNadir Sep 2022 #13
Didnt anwser my question. Eko Sep 2022 #14
OK, I'll answer the stupid question but regrettably, it will involve references to the scientific... NNadir Sep 2022 #15
Ha Ha, someone is mad. Eko Sep 2022 #16
Oh, I see, another excuse. What a surprise. NNadir Sep 2022 #17
I know you were never going to answer the question. Eko Sep 2022 #18
Whatever. I accomplished my purpose in this exchange. NNadir Sep 2022 #19
Some guy named Ben Eko Sep 2022 #20
OK Alice. Thanks for sharing. NNadir Sep 2022 #21
That would make sense if I had actually Eko Sep 2022 #22

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
1. If one is comparing it to coal, possibly. If on the other hand, one is comparing wind to clean...
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 06:26 PM
Sep 2022

...and sustainable energy, no.

So called "renewable energy" is not sustainable precisely because of its huge mining intensive footprint and because it requires redundant systems, vast land areas and the thermodynamic expense - and environmental expense - of restarting dangerous fossil fuel plants when the wind doesn't blow and the sun goes down.

Energy storage should be a non-starter, but unfortunately, students are not required to learn the second law of thermodynamics before graduating high school.

It's too bad. I've been hearing about batteries (and worse, hydrogen) my entire adult life, and I'm not young. It's a very, very, very, very bad idea.

After spending trillions of dollars on solar and wind in this century, the result is that the rate of accumulation of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide is accelerating, not decelerating.

As we are seeing in Germany, where they shut their nuclear plants to burn coal, and as we saw in California during the early September during the outbreak of extreme heat, the so called "renewable energy" scheme is wholly and completely dependent on access to dangerous fossil fuels.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
2. Funny how someone would call nuclear
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 07:47 PM
Sep 2022

clean and sustainable energy. Let me know when you are taking baths in nuclear waste.

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
3. Funny how people who whine about so called "nuclear waste" are unable to identify someone killed...
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 10:11 PM
Sep 2022

...by it.

It would be interesting if people whining about "nuclear waste" could identify as many people as will die in the next hour from air pollution from air pollution, but they can't.

To them, anything can kill at will, just so no one ever, anywhere, at any time ever dies from radioactivity, not that many people do.

18,000 people died today on this planet from fossil fuels. Anti-nukes, including the badly educated "I'm not an anti-nuke" anti-nukes have no fucking sense of shame.

And of course, there are people dying from extreme heat all over the fucking world without a peep from people whining insipidly about so called "nuclear waste," a subject about which they demonstrate knowing, repeatedly, zero.

Right now, after running 4,000 cement trucks to cover up a tunnel at Hanford because dumb guys are terrified of a few radioactive atoms, the whole fucking world is waking up to something called "climate change."

My son, a nuclear engineering Ph.D student complemented me the other day, by telling me that all of his professors go around saying what I've been saying for years, although not using the obscenities I use to describe these types, far more deadly than anti-vaxxers, but intellectually and morally equivalent to them.

No educated person could understand how stupid anti-nukes are. I say it slightly differently, than the professors do, "I say no educated person could possibly understand how fucking stupid anti-nukes are. I mean, rivers are disappearing, huge forests are burning, crops are failing and what do we hear?

The eternal insipid whine: "I'm scared of radioactive atoms! I'm scared."

ough shit. The average human being on this planet has 4000 Beq of K-40, and they'd die without it.

You know what? Nuclear engineers don't give a fuck about this stuff. Three quarters of the incoming Ph.D. students in my son's crop of first year Ph.D. students raised their hands when asked to do so if they joined the department to fight climate change.

They're serious people.

They're working to save lives. They're working to fight poverty. They're there because dumb people have left the world in flames.

Because of course, people are being killed because of anti-nuke fear and ignorance, 18,000 a day, seven million per year, not even counting climate change.

There are zero forms of energy that are as sustainable as nuclear energy, and there are no forms as reliable as nuclear energy.

Oh, and there's no such thing as "nuclear waste." Every component of used nuclear fuel has a use, but one would need to open a fucking science book to know that.

Have a nice day.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
4. Ha Ha,,
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 11:05 PM
Sep 2022

I just want to know when you are going to take baths in it buddy since its so freaking clean. Oh yeah, no such thing as nuclear waste, as if these people arent full of actual scientists. https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/radwaste.html unlike some other people.
When you want to share anywhere that I have said that I am against nuclear energy instead of straw manning me feel free to do so, until then maybe keep your mouth shut. I am not anti-nuclear, I am anti idiots saying nuclear is clean.
Have a nice night buddy!
Eko

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
5. Oh, I see, anti-nukes take baths in coal waste, do they?
Thu Sep 15, 2022, 11:53 PM
Sep 2022

Actually they make every fucking person on the planet breathe the stuff. They've been doing it for years.

I'm used to anti-nukes claiming that they're not anti-nukes, because intellectually and morally it's now clear what they have done to the planet.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who carries on about so called "nuclear waste," is an anti-nuke. Period.

If we were likely to be dumb enough to agree with how people describe themselves, we'd be forced to agree that Donald Trump is a very stable genius.

Anti-nukes really don't read very well, and they certainly don't know how to research a subject deeply. They think if they google something, the pass for remotely informed. This is not true.

No where in any publication anywhere at any time is there any record of so called "nuclear waste" killing as many people as the coal belching about which anti-nukes couldn't care less will kill in the next hour.

And of course, there are zero anti-nukes who engage in critical thinking, and zero who show any evidence of having read the stuff they link.

This is the Bateman equation:



Anyone who is competent to discuss the nature of used nuclear fuels will be intimately familiar with it.

Anyone who isn't, will lazily produce links without a fucking wit of comprehension of what is in them.

Again, this kind of laziness and ignorance, kills people, somewhere between 18,000 and 19,000 per day, about 800 an hour, between six and seven million people per year, and that's not counting the climate change about which anti-nukes couldn't give a rat's ass. They'd rather talk about tunnels at Hanford collapsing, and um, get this, "nuclear waste."

Now, it's not like I expect anti-nukes to read; clearly they don't, but I frequently publish a source for the number of people they kill with their ignorance, whining about Hanford and other stupid shit as they do so.

Not a pretty bunch this sort, not very literate.

My usual response to the airheads whose weak efforts at wit might talk about taking baths in precious nuclear fuel, material critical to saving the world that ignorance destroyed:

It is here: Global burden of 87 risk factors in 204 countries and territories, 1990–2019: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2019 (Lancet Volume 396, Issue 10258, 17–23 October 2020, Pages 1223-1249). This study is a huge undertaking and the list of authors from around the world is rather long. These studies are always open sourced; and I invite people who want to carry on about Fukushima to open it and search the word "radiation." It appears once. Radon, a side product brought to the surface by fracking while we all wait for the grand so called "renewable energy" nirvana that did not come, is not here and won't come, appears however: Household radon, from the decay of natural uranium, which has been cycling through the environment ever since oxygen appeared in the Earth's atmosphere.

Here is what it says about air pollution deaths in the 2019 Global Burden of Disease Survey, if one is too busy to open it oneself because one is too busy carrying on about Fukushima:

The top five risks for attributable deaths for females were high SBP (5·25 million [95% UI 4·49–6·00] deaths, or 20·3% [17·5–22·9] of all female deaths in 2019), dietary risks (3·48 million [2·78–4·37] deaths, or 13·5% [10·8–16·7] of all female deaths in 2019), high FPG (3·09 million [2·40–3·98] deaths, or 11·9% [9·4–15·3] of all female deaths in 2019), air pollution (2·92 million [2·53–3·33] deaths or 11·3% [10·0–12·6] of all female deaths in 2019), and high BMI (2·54 million [1·68–3·56] deaths or 9·8% [6·5–13·7] of all female deaths in 2019). For males, the top five risks differed slightly. In 2019, the leading Level 2 risk factor for attributable deaths globally in males was tobacco (smoked, second-hand, and chewing), which accounted for 6·56 million (95% UI 6·02–7·10) deaths (21·4% [20·5–22·3] of all male deaths in 2019), followed by high SBP, which accounted for 5·60 million (4·90–6·29) deaths (18·2% [16·2–20·1] of all male deaths in 2019). The third largest Level 2 risk factor for attributable deaths among males in 2019 was dietary risks (4·47 million [3·65–5·45] deaths, or 14·6% [12·0–17·6] of all male deaths in 2019) followed by air pollution (ambient particulate matter and ambient ozone pollution, accounting for 3·75 million [3·31–4·24] deaths (12·2% [11·0–13·4] of all male deaths in 2019), and then high FPG (3·14 million [2·70–4·34] deaths, or 11·1% [8·9–14·1] of all male deaths in 2019).


(I actually read the papers referenced in the Hanford link above, but then again I'm competent to do so. There are also people competent to deal with used nuclear fuels, but basically anti-nukes won't know that just by lazy Googles to links they are incompetent to read.)

Anti-nukes talking about science, how cute!

You know, Ed Lyman has a Ph.D. in physics, from Cornell, no less. He's a "concerned scientist" who can drag out every anti-nuke scare story in the world to excite stupid people, and let's face it, ignorant people do get excited, everything from jumping up and down about rail cars in Hanford tunnels to well, suggesting that a knowledgeable person is suggesting baths in valuable used nuclear fuel.

Ed likes to write about what would happen if all of Southeastern Pennsylvania caught fire and somehow burned all of Peach Bottom's used nuclear fuel.

He joined the Union of Concerned "Scientists" in 2003. In the 19 years he's been prattling on about putative nuclear accidents, imagining nuclear wars, blah, blah, blah ad nauseum, somewhere between 120,000,000 and 140,000,000 people died from air pollution without a whimper of concern from him or any other asshole in his anti-nuke funded ignorance factory. This is not an exercise in probability. It's a fact.

In those 19 years, the concentration of carbon dioxide rose by 50 ppm in the planetary atmosphere.

Ed of course, in his exercise in Peach Bottom hysteria raised the big boogeyman of Fukushima, like all anti-nukes do. It's not like they can identify the number of deaths caused by radiation comparable to the number of people killed by seawater in the very same event.

What was the death toll from radiation again?

Again, it's cute when anti-nukes try to talk about science or scientists. They don't seem to understand that to do so, one has to be able to think critically.

Numbers don't lie, but people do.

Now I have to go and breathe some coal waste while I sleep. I have no choice. Anti-nuke ignorance won and like every living thing on this planet, I have to pay with my flesh for the dubious victory of ignorance, fear and selective attention.

Have a nice day tomorrow.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
6. At no time or place did I say coal was clean.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 08:34 AM
Sep 2022

So there is no reason to answer you question which is the title. You are hilarious.

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
7. Um...um...um...unbelievable...simply unbelievable.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 10:03 AM
Sep 2022

Look, anti-nukes are not very good with understanding inferences, even what they infer themselves.

Now, they're a pretty generic bunch. They'll tell you shit like they aren't claiming coal is "clean" but they make pretty fucking sure it's being burned.

Then they declare themselves "green."

The poster boys, girls and gender neutral individuals for this mentality is the nation of Germany, where the price of electricity recently hit 1,000 Euros/MWh because the bourgeois brats in Greenpeace like to dress up in monkey suits and lay on the tracks to block trains from carrying used nuclear fuel to France for resource recovery of its valuable components.

Europe’s Benchmark Power Price Breaks 1,000 Euros for First Time

Here's something all the fucking anti-nukes disregard because they can't find anyone killed by the storage of used nuclear fuel; it's called "data:"

Germany's electrical generation sources for the last 5 years:





Germany's electrical generation sources for the last 30 days:





Source: Electricity Map, Germany (Accessed 9/16/22)

For comparison purposes here's France for the last 5 years:





Is this fucking data clear or not?

The type of coal the Gemans are burning, their domestic coal is lignite.

Here from a scientific journal, one of the most prominent medical journals in the world Lancet is a table giving the calculated of mortality rates associated with primary energy sources used to generate electricity:

Here's table 2:

Anil Markandya, Paul Wilkinson, Electricity generation and health, The Lancet, Volume 370, Issue 9591, 2007, Pages 979-990.

Now, which energy system killed more people in the last 5 years, that of self declared "green" Germany or that of France?

Now, if you ask a German anti-nuke whether they ever said coal is "clean," they'll fucking deny it. They'll deny it, but still they'll burn it while offering disgusting lies that some future generation will do what they refused to do themselves.

I regard them as some of the most dishonest people in the world, because actions have consequences, and it's not like they even understand at a basic level what they are in fact saying by their actions and the consequences of their idiot rhetoric. Anti-nukes whine in denial all fucking day long that they didn't say this or they didn't say that. They're big on denial, tiny on taking a meaningful stand on anything. Basically they're full of shit. All of them, German, American, every fucking one of them in every fucking country in the world.

The German decision to shut their nuclear plants and burn coal - because they're too fucking stupid to understand that nuclear energy, while not perfect, is the most sustainable energy source in the world, particularly when stupid fantasies about solar and wind leads to energy poverty - should disgust any decent human being. It won't, but it should. The people who will literally die from a lack of ability to pay electricity priced at 1000 Euros/MWh wholesale are the poor.

Poverty kills people, just like anti-nuke rhetoric kills people.

Oh, and they'll tell you that they're "going" to phase out coal, someday in some fantasy time that will always come after they die. They're dumping the cost of their ignorance on future generations, about whom they don't give a shit.

Now, anti-nukes have a very strange sense of humor. I'll discuss with them the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, and they'll declare the reference "hilarious."

Personally, I'm not amused. I give a shit about the world and nothing about it leaves me giggling. I think the fucking situation is dire and serious.

Anti-nukes make Nero look like a fire fighter. It appears that their moral level is no higher than their intellectual level. With this sort around, it's easy to see why climate change has risen to the level long predicted and now here with all of the predicted results actively observed.

Ignorance, smug ignorance especially, kills people.

Have a very pleasant weekend.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
8. What's amusing
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 01:52 PM
Sep 2022

Is you once again resorting to straw man fallacy, or saying I took a position I never took because I pointed out your idiotic claim that nuclear energy is clean. So yes, it’s amusing that you fall back on that since you know you can’t claim nuclear energy is clean and instead have to go off on a long winded tangent to make yourself look good when in reality you are not.
Have a good day!
Eko

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
9. What's disgusting is the weak effort to hide responsibility behind chanting drivel.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 02:14 PM
Sep 2022

The number of anti-nukes who ever answer the question about how many people were killed by what they refer to as a talismanic term, they chant "nuclear waste," is zero.

I've asked this question of thousands of generic anti-nukes, and they never answer. They just wiggle and squirm and giggle and change the subject.

All the whining prevarications and weak minded self absolution and giggling at mass death does not obscure that fact.

Facts matter.

In this century, more than 150 million deaths occurred from dangerous air pollution while asses whined about nuclear waste and caused coal to be burned, causing most of those deaths.

That's also a fact.

Facts matter. Weasley whiny efforts at excusing one's indifference to facts, don't matter. They merely disgust those who have a sense of decency.

Case closed.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
10. Facts do indeed matter.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 02:21 PM
Sep 2022

But throwing facts around left and right doesn’t hide the fact that you said nuclear is clean. So, when when you be taking baths in nuclear waste if it’s so clean?

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
11. I expect my son to work after completing his Ph.D on the recovery of valuable materials from used...
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 02:31 PM
Sep 2022

...nuclear fuel. I'm talking up the innovative company Oklo as a paradigm of the type of company where he should aspire to work against ignorance, since they have a the used nuclear fuel to clean energy business model.

My son is already trained and has experience on handling nuclear materials, having worked at ORNL as an undergraduate intern and having been given unusual responsibility there.

He's um, a person who cares about the future of humanity, as are his peers.

The group he joined is headed by a scientist who has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of highly cited papers on nuclear fuels, some cited over 1000 times. It was a competitive group to get into and he's in it.

He's not a smug little uneducated fool giggling and issuing soundbite quality mindless slogans; he's a highly educated scientist working at the forefront of technology with one of the world's leaders in nuclear fuels.

I'm proud of him. It is enough that he has to work hard on his studies. It's unconscionable that he has to work in a world populated by abysmal anti-nukes who can't answer the simple question - How many people were killed by the storage of commercial nuclear fuels? - and who simply giggle and change the subject when the question is asked.

Like anti-vaxxers, these types are, again, generic. Regrettably anti-nukes have led to far more deaths than antivaxxers. Covid never killed 18,000 to 19,000 people in a single day. Insipid antinukism has, and does so every fucking day..

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
13. Really?
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 03:04 PM
Sep 2022

I'm an anti-fossil fuel activist. I can respond with numbers and references every fucking time I confront anti-nuke rhetoric whenever some dumb shit anti-nuke mutters about so called "nuclear waste" with data about how many people, the German anti-nukes among them, are being killing by burning coal and other fossil fuels.

In fact, in this exchange, I've already cited references that any educated person with a high school level of mathematics should be able to calculate how many people were killed by German coal burning in the last five years.

This isn't a Pee-wee Herman rerun.

The contention is that nuclear energy is not clean energy because someone offers the nonsense slogan term "nuclear waste."

I say it's clean because it is the only form of energy where its by products can be contained indefinitely where generated until their value is utilized.

I note, that I have on file thousands upon thousands upon thousands of scientific papers on energy and the environment, and most of the times when referencing them, I not only cite them, but I excerpt them as my journal here indicates, This means I read them, and often in my commentary I apply critical thinking to what I read so reference to some stupid anti-nuke dipshit website in the circle jerk of anti-nuke ignorance will only make me shake my head at the depth of ignorance associated with this cult.

So out with it! How many people have died from the storage of used nuclear fuel in the last 70 years that nuclear energy has been saving lives from air pollution?

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
15. OK, I'll answer the stupid question but regrettably, it will involve references to the scientific...
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 09:03 PM
Sep 2022

literature, something beyond clown questions, even though there are no fucking anti-nukes who are willing to discuss if they bathe in gasoline or any of the other fossil fuels they defend via selective attention.

It will involve the phase diagram of supercritical water, and I wrote about it at length in a post which is way, way, way over the head of childish brats who want to play Peewee Herman.

I would hope they would skip jerking off in a porno theater. On the other hand, anti-nukes are generally jerk-offs, intellectual and moral Lilliputians.

The Energy Required to Supply California's Water with Zero Discharge Supercritical Desalination.

Were this program enacted, I note that the water would be free of halogenated compounds, free of mercury, free of lead, and free of microplastics. Only a moron would refuse to take a bath in this water. (Of course, there are lots of morons.)

Of course, this process would involve highly trained engineers, not PeeWee Herman anti-nuke wannbees.

As it happens, I have discussed this technology with my son, an engineer, and, I'm happy to announce that an engineer on DU P-mailed that it would be adding this proposal to his engineering curriculum, because the desalination classes he teaches emphasize energy intensive membrane methods whereas this process involves recovering energy.

Engineers of course, don't give a fuck what childish anti-nukes think.

I note that the destruction of carbon fluorine bonds requires direct exposure to high energy gamma an x-rays from fission products.

Now, speaking of fission products, what dumb people call "nuclear waste," let me know if there's one fucking dumb shit anti-nuke who can answer the question, "How many people have been killed by the 70 year history of the storage of used nuclear fuels?

To stimulate the conversation, here's a picture of all the used nuclear fuel generated at the Pilgrim Nuclear Power plant over its entire operating history:



I don't see any dead bodies there, and the worker looks rather healthy, but I'm sure that someone who reports that so called "nuclear waste" is dirty compared to the coal, gas and petroleum waste that has left the planet in flames, crops failing, rivers drying up can report on where all those dead bodies are. Oh, and don't tell me about the fucking grand "renewable energy" nirvana that was predicted for 2000, 2010, 2020, 2030, 2040 and 2050. People are dying from extreme heat now and the German anti-nukes aren't helping; they're making thing worse.

Of course, I certainly hope that my son's generation will have access to the contents of these fuel drums. The world certainly needs what's in them if it is to survive. He was never amused by Pee Wee Herman, but now that I've addressed the childish, "You first..."

Well? Where are the bodies? I assume that the number of dead "discovered" by anti-nukes from the last 70 years of commercial nuclear operations will certainly match the 18,000 people killed today by anti-nuke contempt for humanity, stupidity and sloganeering.

I eagerly await the next insipid excuse for no answer or giggle.

Ignorance kills people.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
16. Ha Ha, someone is mad.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 09:22 PM
Sep 2022

Of course you didn't answer the question. Instead you pointed to something entirely different from what we are talking about which is waste produced from nuclear power plants and exactly when you are going to start taking baths in it. And we are not talking about rainwater runoff waste from a plan but the highly radioactive waste that according to you is not waste but is, again, highly radioactive. So, yes or no?

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
17. Oh, I see, another excuse. What a surprise.
Fri Sep 16, 2022, 10:23 PM
Sep 2022

I really hate talking to anti-nukes. They're so fucking insipid, and they kill people.

The cute thing is their Trumpian, "I'm not an anti-nuke" lie.

It's understandable of course that they would lazily attempt to deny their responsibility for this horror, because the world is waking up to the reality that these fuckers killed a planet that didn't belong to them. They deserve the disgrace.

The number of people killed by used nuclear fuel storage in this country is zero. The number of people killed by ignorance is this country, deaths from fossil fuels, is on the order of 7 orders of magnitude.

QED.

Eko

(7,281 posts)
18. I know you were never going to answer the question.
Sat Sep 17, 2022, 11:48 AM
Sep 2022

Exactly what I expected.
Have a great day!
Eko

Eko

(7,281 posts)
22. That would make sense if I had actually
Sat Sep 17, 2022, 07:41 PM
Sep 2022

said that someone had died from nuclear waste, but I didn't.

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