(Here we go, not that it matters) - Note to SPIELBERG, about West Side Story

[UTUSN]

Last edited Tue Dec 7, 2021, 03:23 AM - Edit history (9)

Disclosure: What's setting me off here is a media item effusing over SONDHEIM's demise, calling WWS "SONDHEIM's (item/property/work/whatever)" like it was HIS (alone). He did the LYRICS, O.K.?

There is NO way that SONDHEIM's lyrics are more important on their own than BERNSTEIN's music.

*** Not that anybody should know or care what a random, anonymous, internet nobody like me thinks, but here at DU Lounge I've posted how MELODY has primacy, NOT lyrics. Music is ALL. Yes, I was in high school band, and have been dismissed here as band being the reason I dismiss LYRICS. Well, before that, my mother was a convent girl who was minimally schooled into classical music and a bit of beginning piano, plus "music appreciation" was in our family genes. And Mother, sister, and I were musically fascinated. My father and my older sister were tone deaf.

Yea, the Loungeteers who love LYRICS have dismissed my disdain for LYRICS on the ground that I was in the BAND: "That EXPLAINS it," they have said. (As opposed to being in the *choir*. )

Uh, NO: I've got two EARS. That's why I like or dislike a song. That's why I love TCHAIKOVSKY. Republican EISENHOWER liked TCHAKOVSKY "because he's TUNEFUL." BERNSTEIN said there was no more MELODICALLY gifted composer than him/TCHAIKOVSKY.

And one of the DUers posted that a song I liked, "Chandelier" by Sia, is great because it described her drug/suicidal/whatever-CRAP she went through. Uh, NO. I liked it for the MELODY. I have ZERO desire to spin a psychiatric session on the turntable. Another DUer lectured that a perfect song "Imagine" was great because of the LYRIC words/deep-thoughts. Uh, no.

BERNSTEIN demonstrated in a Young Peoples' Concert that you can take a beautiful song with matching beautiful melody/lyrics and totally substitute the LYRICS with different lyrics, hateful lyrics, or random/nonsensical SOUNDS/grunts - all with the same beautiful MELODY - and the song remains beautiful. You can take SHUBERT's "Ave Maria" and insert blasphemous, hateful, detestable Marquis de SADE *words* and the song remains beautiful.

And, NO, I was not brainwashed by Lenny. I just love the MELODY/sound of stuff.

I *will* say that once the music/melody has HOOKED me, perhaps after a gazillion times of hearing it, I might check out the lyrics. But the obvious thing is: When a magnificent MELODY is out there, the composer/lyricist wants to match the nobility with suitable words and sentiments. So it's a no brainer that a wonderful song has both wonderful music AND lyrics.

And the TEXT of the travails of a particular set of humans is it's own thing, but can be expressed in whatever formats, and the MUSIC will go on singing into the universe on its own.


*** So about West Side Story, I'll say that the main (and only) thing for me is BERNSTEIN's music. I'll say the blasphemy that it might not be the best music *ever* written.

And as for the currently rave-reviewed version of WSS, the best things are that SPIELBERG is convincing about how he loved the thing since he was ten years old, and that he framed it from the original stage play not the movie version, and that he made the cast more ethnically correct. Fine.

And I will go to the movie house for the first time in years despite our current unpleasantness. Disclosure, have never been a movie or movie house aficionado.


The biggest and SOLE selling point for me is that the makers DIDN'T SCREW AROUND WITH BERNSTEIN. And really, I don't need movies, especially this one. I can hear it out on whatever the sound medium is - CD, streaming, M3 === whatever those things are. And the music is so KNOWN to me, I don't care about anything else, and don't want to hear things forever, just when I'm in the mood.

*** Do you hate me again?

[blm]

1. Tennesse Whiskey is I'd Rather Go Blind. 😉

[blm]

3. Uh huh. Just different lyrics.

&t=0s

[UTUSN]

6. You are so perfect in your comprehension, blm.

[elleng]

2. YES!

and I was in the balcony when Bernstein asked us (kids,) 'Can you HEAR me?' YES, I replied!!!

((NOT planning to watch the 'new' West Side Story.))

[Jeebo]

4. I think BOTH are important.

It's not music without the melody, and I've always thought that music is stand-alone in that it is a form of nonverbal communication, because it says something that words cannot say. But when you add words to it, the words are important too, and they should complement the nonverbal communication of the music in some way. I had an older brother who died two and a half years ago who just LOVED Frank Sinatra because, he said, you could actually UNDERSTAND every word he sang. I'm not the ultra-fan of Sinatra that my brother was, but I can see his point; Sinatra exquisitely and eloquently and crisply enunciated every word, every syllable, and you really could easily hear and understand every word.

And yes, I like Tchaikovsky too, but I like Beethoven much more. Especially his third, sixth, seventh and ninth symphonies, and all of his piano concertos. And the triple concerto. God yes, the triple concerto.

As for the overall issue of re-making West Side Story, here's what puzzles me about that: WHY would anybody want to re-make a movie that won BEST PICTURE, for heaven's sake? How the hell could they think they could improve on that? And if you can't improve on it, what's the point in re-making it? This is why I hate re-making classic old movies. Leave well-enough alone and do something else that has the potential of actually improving on things.

-- Ron

[Ocelot II]

5. I don't usually like musicals but West Side Story is genius,

and it's because of Bernstein's music.

[UTUSN]

7. Thank you. And it's not because of the subject, the ethnicity of characters. Without Lenny is nada.

[Tomconroy]

8. I saw it performed on Broadway in the 1980s. The Jerome Robbins

choreography was breathtaking.
Bought my tickets on line for a Friday matinee!

When you're a Jet, you're a Jet, from you're first cigarette......

[UTUSN]

9. The only live I've seen was a road version of Evita with LuPone.

For me it's all about the music, but I still see her slumped shoulders when she exited a scene in defeat/determination. Still, I was only there for the music.

[stopdiggin]

10. I appreciate both

and I think there are varieties of music (and particular pieces) where one undoubtedly transcends another. Can't imagine getting into a catfight over it though - just as a I can't imagine somebody trying to corner the market or establish supremacy for one form over the other. I've often though that I come in somewhat on the lyricist side of the curve myself. Far as I know that hasn't ever stopped my from getting an absolute buzz off of an instrumental ...

[UTUSN]

11. No catfight with/from me. Can't convert or be converted. Not a matter of supremacy. Music/melody it.

If a piece fails or wins, it's the music/melody's fault. Lyrics won't save it. If somebody wants words, read prose or poetry.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Ya know, I always thought of WSS as a ballet more than anything...

else. And a ballet depends less on a libretto than even opera.

With Robbins and Bernstein running the show in '61, they wanted the best libretto, of course, but it did not rule.

But, whatever value you put on the pieces, it was a great show and the Bard would be proud.

The Shakesperian comedy and the show derived from it are brilliant, and I see it as still worth pursuing. Helluva cast and production crew this time. Can they live up to the past?

Rita Moreno thinks she can...

[UTUSN]

13. How can I argue with anything? Whether it's a ballet, an anthropology study, a tale - it's nothing

without the music.

Those other formats can be *read* or *recited* - and bore you to sleep or death.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. True, but you know that a lot of the talk this week is spurred on by...

Sondheim's demise.

And Laurent's book has driven a lot of the stage work (not all as good as the book)

[UTUSN]

18. "Sondhem's demise" - thanks for understanding.

Plus the hype of a major production and a SPIELBERG career-cap.

As I said, I've heard the music almost all of my life, can hear it whenever, don't need/want to do the story thing (sorry, SHAKESPEARE) except *very* occasionally (am talking decades).

I like your clear-eyed view, thanks.

[elleng]

14. 'Comedy?'

It ain't Taming of the Shrew, you know.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. I know most people call it a tragedy, but I see it a little differently.

[elleng]

17. ROMEO and JULIET is and always will be TRAGIC.

and of course it continues, 'human nature' being what it is, DUMB and FOOLISH.

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Well, this isn't worth fighting over, but while you and everyone else...

sees star-crossed lovers dying in a tragic way, I see the end of a war.

Shakespeare himself probably saw them as tragic.

[Paladin]

20. I agree with you that Bernstein's stunning music is the most important element of "WSS."

But I would urge you to watch the brilliant documentary "Six By Sondheim" to get a better appreciation of Sondheim as a lyricist, teacher, and human being---not to mention Sondheim's good-natured explanation of how Bernstein dicked him over re the royalties from "WSS."

You can trust me on the foregoing---I'm an old trombone player.

[UTUSN]

22. Thanks about the music. What set me off was seeing the phrase, "SONDHEIM's West Side Story" in

one of the summaries of his brilliant career, like WSS was not only all HIS, but wouldn't even exist without him.

I will quibble about my needing "a better appreciation ... lyricist, teacher, and human being." I'm an English Lit major and have sampled a fair number of words by masters of language. The only lyrics of his I knew were from WSS and "Send in the Clowns" and "Losing My Mind," the last two I will shock by saying I had zero idea were by him! And the language of these lyrics never occurred to me as being poetic, just suitably craftsmanlike in conveying understated emotion and character.

As for his teaching and human being credentials, I will certainly trust your reference. But am not drawn to delving more into his story. Unless there is some juicy gossip!1

I would be more interested in hearing you play the trombone, regards!

[Paladin]

23. Pull up the lyrics to Sondheim's "Sunday."

From "Sunday In The Park With George." As an English Lit major, you ought to enjoy it. It's used as the finale to that documentary I mentioned; very moving, given Sondheim's recent passing.

And I couldn't get a note out of a trombone now if a gun were pressed against my head. Way too many years since I had the lip for it. Thanks for the inquiry.

[UTUSN]

25. No. I don't know what songs of his are both music and lyrics, but the clips I've heard during the

current adulation (well-deserved) have not made me want to hear much more of his music. To repeat myself silly, I don't care much about LYRICS where there's music involved. The clips I've seen/heard just don't grab me musically and even less for the lyrics except for the few things I've mentioned. I don't care about George, or the couples revealing their own characters/relationships, and especially not that serial killer barber thing. I don't care that he's singing some kind of tender song just before he slices a throat. I don't care, and won't miss caring for all that.

[Stuart G]

21. Question to Spielberg? Why remake "West Side Story" ? What For?

[UTUSN]

24. And there it is - the *crux*!

I'll see it just because it's there. And for all the hoopla about making a "better" version, the faces from the supposedly less authentic version will be superimposed, for me, on the new ones by my own brain fart. I'll see it once. I think I've only seen the previous version only a couple or three times at most, except for clip highlights, and the rest of it for me has been hearing the music, much more.

And the issue that roles ought to be played only by persons of the depicted race or whatever characteristic is, for me, specious. "Acting" means something-OTHER than the literal person the actor is. If a great role exists - say, Othello - the real draw is to see it played by a great actor - say, Lawrence OLIVIER. Heresy here: The character in the play is Black; the person on the stage is SEEN, so for OLIVIER *not* to use cosmetic alteration would be relying only on the words in the play telling the audience that the character is Black.

When a fool interviewer gushed to Christopher PLUMMER about how difficult it would be to replace SPACEY, PLUMMER slapped back, "We do that all the time in acting. It's called being an *understudy*!"

Same as when Hugh DOWNS was cluelessly interviewing the latest pianist prodigy, who had mentioned he would go sailing for six weeks at a time. And Hugh was aghast, "Six weeks!1 What do you do about *practicing*?!1" And the answer was, "I don't."

[intrepidity]

26. You can test your theory

by observing how often alt-lyrics are used for a new recording, vs how often you hear old lyrics set to a new melody. I'd guess the ratio is easily 100:1 or more.

(The only exception would be hymns, where the lyrics are typically from Psalms, Proverbs, etc. Here, typically, the same "lyrics" are set to often quite-varied melodies.)

I've heard dozens of renditions of "Bohemian Rhapsody"--often as spoofs--and yet have never once heard the lyrics set to a different melody. Odd. (not)

[UTUSN]

27. Well, to tie a ribbon on it, maybe refining it for myself if not for anybody else:

I lay no claim to originality in the "theory." Yes, BERNSTEIN laid it out on T.V., but I arrived at it for myself on my own as I think anybody musically obsessed would do,, not parroting him. Really it's just how I see this thing, and only of interest to others if I bring it up and then they can take it or leave it. BERNSTEIN *demonstrated* ("tested" ) it in front of an audience, but it wasn't original to him, either.

Substituting lyrics is nothing new, has been done forever, for whatever purpose - to be ironic, to mock, to elevate, whatever. I'd say my point is made using Sia's "Chandelier," when Dior or whatever perfume used it in its commercials, which is where I first heard it: Yes, Dior took a song whose lyrics were psychologically clinical, REMOVED the lyrics, and played its music as a soaring background to exalt its product. I like the sound and feeling of the music, and when Sia is singing the words I'm responding to her VOICE, not even registering the lyrics.

To put it another way, FOR ME, words and music are each their own thing to themselves, and yes, can be put in service to each other. But for me, if I want to relish words for themselves I'll read poetry or prose, and if I want to experience music I'll do that. I guess if I want to belt out *with* the music I'll use the words or just vocalize with humming or grunting.

[intrepidity]

28. I'm on your side

No contest which is more important to me.

[UTUSN]

29. Not to prolong this but - wow, thanks.

My final (I promise) nail in this coffin:

Can't say how often, almost always with Rock, besides that I don't focus on the lyrics and that they are unintelligible to begin with, the issue becomes what the lyrics are *really* about/saying.

Like with Hotel California. Despite that a DUer connoisseur here said it's a no good song, that song exploded from its debut and has never faded or seemed over-played. And that endurance is not due to "steely steely knives" or "pretty pretty boys". I never knew what the Hades the lyrics were about, and it wasn't until years later that I heard it's about syringes/drugs. I never cared what the Hades it was about/said, am still magnetized whenever I hear it. Clue: It's the music.

And be shocked to find out what the bizarre lyrics and plots of MOZART's gorgeous operas are about.

And unfortunately my own pseudo-poetry contains private language that definitely cuts down any appeal to anybody else.