Why does the US Olympic Shooting team always fare so poorly?

[LonePirate]

In 2008, the US Olympic Shooting team won 6 of the available 45 medals. In 2004, we only won 4 medals.

In our gun obsessed country where thousands if not millions of citizens live and breathe for their guns, why isn't the US Olympic Shooting team sweeping the shooting events? This disconnect puzzles me. Are the Olympic recruiters bad at their jobs? Does the alleged American exceptionalism not extend to marksmanship and our usage of guns? Is there some other explanation here? There is surely no other country on this planet whose citizens spend more time firing weapons than ours does; but I'll be damned if we can't channel that into some sort of legitimate national pride.

[Baitball Blogger]

1. I won't swear to it, but,

Maybe the selection of the team is too fru-fru like dressage? I mean, like the way they pick the horses by bloodlines?

[davsand]

2. Don't ya know that in A-mur-i-ka we need assault rifles to hit anything?

Just ask the NRA! They'll be sure to tell you that we all NEED an automatic to use for hunting.






Laura

[Scuba]

3. Bingo. American shooters take more of a "spray-and-pray" approach.

[trof]

20. Dang right. Give them boys and girls AK-47s and watch 'em GO!

[demguy_5692]

16. Indeed. No wonder...

[undeterred]

4. Why is shooting even worthy of being an Olympic sport?

[hobbit709]

35. Because they're based on military fitness.

spear chucking, running, boxing, etc.

[whistler162]

5. The real disconnect that baffles me is that

of thought and your brain!

[Orrex]

30. Um, what?

[jakeXT]

6. I think you expect too much

Ok, China had 8 medals in 2008, but don't forget four 4th places for the US, sometimes with the same points as the 3rd.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/results?discId=37

[LonePirate]

8. Of the tens of millions of gun owners and users, I expect a couple dozen can use them very well.

I don't like to think about the fact that so few of them apparently know how to use them well thus we can't build a dominating US Olympic Shooting team. I created this thread to see if anybody could offer an explanation as to why we aren't sweeping these events since we undoubtedly have the largest and most experienced pool of potential competitors. Why can't the gun culture in this country actually contribute to a sense of national pride?

[jakeXT]

9. Maybe relying on on donations is one thing

The Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military. Formation was precipitated by adoption of the M1903 Springfield rifle as the national service arm. Civilians experienced with popular contemporary lever-action rifles were unable to sustain an equivalent rate of fire from the unfamiliar bolt action M1903 rifle.

Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. Title XVI of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (Public Law 104-106, 10 February 1996) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP.[2] The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq.). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no federal funding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Marksmanship_Program

Partially funded by the U.S. Olympic Committee, USA Shooting relies on donations from supporters of the Olympic Movement, membership dues, event fees and corporate partners. In 2008 the USA Shooting Team Foundation, a separate 501c3 non-profit corporation, was established to act as the fundraising arm of USA Shooting. Click here to learn more about how you can support the USA Shooting Team.

http://www.usashooting.org/

Medal numbers go up and down.
I guess if the US poured more state money into it like China does, maybe you could improve results.

6 medals 1984
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1984_Summer_Olympics
1 medal 1988
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics
2 medals 1992
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics
3 medals 1996
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics
3 medals 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics
3 medals 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_2004_Summer_Olympics
6 medals 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

[LonePirate]

11. This sounds like a perfect endeavor for the NRA to support instead of promoting gun grabber BS.

[4th law of robotics]

22. If people would stop pushing for gun-bans

the NRA would focus on that sort of thing, as they did initially.

[LynneSin]

7. Our gun obsessed country tends to own more than actually learn how to use them

just saying!

[slampoet]

10. American Marksmanship has been on the decline since the first world war.

Rapid fire and large calibers are what drives our gun people.

You can find a 22 Martin with a scope anywhere real cheap and it'll last you the rest of your life, or you can pay 5-7 times that for a jamb-prone bullet sprayer.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

26. What is a "22 Martin"?

[slampoet]

27. .22 Marlin. Darn auto correct.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. Thanks. It happens.

[kayakjohnny]

12. What a nasty and inappropriate post.

Your taste in humor sucks.

Wait for the bodies to cool, asshole.

[pipi_k]

14. Nasty and inappropriate post

in response to an OP that seems more like sarcasm than humor.

[MiddleFingerMom]

13. The biathlon has always fascinated me. I have what I think is a genetic condition...

.
.
.
... where I have excessive shaking (tremors, actually) when I try to use
fine muscle control after using large muscle control (after my really bad
motorcycle accident in 1981, I walked into my bank on crutches with a
full-leg cast and it was a good half-an-hour before I could control the
tremors in my hand enough to sign my name to some paperwork).
.
The biathlon training has long used what was considered "alternative"
methods like meditation and biofeedback to train athletes for just that --
to calm their minds and muscles after the intensity of cross-country
skiing to focus and shoot a target using fine muscle control.
.
Just did a quick check. We had a Bronze in 1992 in this -- and the Bronze
medalist in last year's World Cup event was a U.S. soldier (and the site
was the same as the upcoming Winter Olympic event). On a QUICK search,
i didn't find much about U.S. medalists in this sport.
.
.
.

[bluedigger]

15. I really like the Biathlon, too.

As you say, it is a weird sport requiring a combination of brute strength and precise muscle control. I used to do nordic events on my HS team, but the only way to do biathlon was to attend a prep school. Eventually, I served with a Mountain Infantry company in the National Guard. I think their headquarter facilities in Vermont are still the major training facility for the US Biathlon team, but by then I was past my athletic prime, let us say.

The US tends not to do very well internationally. The northern Europeans have a much larger pool of nordic skiers to draw on, and it's much easier to teach a good skier to shoot than it is to teach a shooter to ski.

[jmowreader]

17. There's a very simple reason

Olympic-level target shooting requires just as much dedication and expense as any other Olympic-level sport, plus it requires guns no one outside the world-championship target shooting fraternity even knows exist. Your standard NRA member's gun collection does not contain a .22-caliber rifle that can put 40 rounds into a half-inch hole; an Olympic target rifle can do it all day long.

[Clames]

46. Ever heard of a benchrest rifle?

Pretty popular and the best will put all those rounds into a smaller hole at 4 times the distance.

[jmowreader]

47. I have heard of a benchrest rifle

Check the prices:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Benchrest-and-Target-Rifles.cfm?cat_id=259

Very, very few of our millions of gun enthusiasts are going to spend four figures on a rifle whose intended purpose is target shooting. And that's the thing: the OP's question was why in a country this saturated with guns, do we do so badly at Olympic shooting. The reason is twofold: almost no one outside the Army Marksmanship Unit is going to spend every day shooting at targets to get good enough to compete on the international level, and the number of people who have both the money to buy an Olympic-quality gun and the skill to use it properly is even lower than the first group.

[Clames]

48. Baseless assumption.

Very, very few of our millions of gun enthusiasts are going to spend four figures on a rifle whose intended purpose is target shooting. 

A very significant portion spend that much money on rifles that will be used for nothing more than target shooting. My AR will have almost $1800 in it and all it will do is punch holes in paper and other inanimate objects.

[quakerboy]

18. I blame

Steroids.

[LonePirate]

19. The combination of your name, your avatar and your response made me chuckle.

Thanks for that.

[4th law of robotics]

21. Maybe other countries put more money to training competitive shooters

[LonePirate]

23. The gun enthusiasts in this country pay all kinds of money to shooting ranges and ammo companies.

I wouldn't think training costs are the issue here.

[4th law of robotics]

24. Very different things

Competitive shooting involves very strict rules about which gun you may use, position, ammo, etc.

It's like saying if Americans spend a lot of their SUVs then logically we must produce the worlds best formula 1 racers.

[LonePirate]

25. There are pistol events at the Olympics, aren't there? I fail to see the difference.

Also, do people never take rifles to gun ranges? I know there are trap and skeet events at the Olympics and people shoot the hell out of them in this country.

We have plenty of people in this country who essentially practice all of the time on their own dime and we can't field a decent Olympics squad. This makes no sense to me.

[Kennah]

32. Competing in the Olympics is also one helluva time commitment

Just because someone is a shithot shooter does not mean they have the time to spend away from their dayjob.

[loli phabay]

29. i think its the targets, going by my neighbours and friends and sometimes me

if they had kitchen appliances or a sofa as a target at the olympics and we could transition from 12 gauge to pistol to throwing a spear then we would probuably win every medal.

[TheCruces]

33. Metal barrels are our choice target here...

150 yards for Uzis...400 yards for the Springfield 30.06

[loli phabay]

34. at the local get together this year we had some old pickups ranged out to 500yrds

some nice prizes as well.

[Odin2005]

31. Because the recreational shooters don't give a damn about their accuracy.

Just just want to shoot something that makes them feel powerful.

[HopeHoops]

36. You don't need to be able to aim with a semi-automatic. That's not hunting by any means.

Still, it is curious that we don't win across the board in that competition. Even I can hit my target from a distance, and I rarely shoot. Funny, but I actually learned how to do that in video arcades.

[REP]

38. Try doing what they do

My husband is a nationally-ranked 3-position marksman. He shoots groups about the size of a quarter using iron sites at distances where the target seems to the size of a napkin.

It's harder than it looks.

[HopeHoops]

40. That's impressive! I've hit a 2" target from across two acres, but I'm not a hunter.

Actually, I've been a vegetarian for over 20 years but I still like to shoot for fun. And yes, it isn't easy, but I still don't see the point of hunting with a semi-automatic. I know a lot of hunters (this is PA, mind you) and not one of them would do that. As an old Bloom County strip on hunting (Binkley and his dad) put it, "I found a hoof!"

[PavePusher]

53. You seem to believe that people who hunt with semi-auto firearms...

simply load up drum magazines and go fireing wildly. What has given you this misapprehension?

(And if you're taking your info from fictional cartoons... I really don't think there's much left to discuss.)

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Hunters in PA *can't* use semi-automatics- it's illegal to hunt with them there.

And the states where they are legal to hunt with usually have a 5-round limit on magazines. So, no- hunters with semi-automatics don't "spray and pray"...

[NickB79]

50. You don't shoot a semi-auto much, do you?

Because that statement is laughable.

[PavePusher]

51. Then you really know nothing about semi-auto and their use in hunting. n/t

[Bug-911]

37. No shooters

There seems to me to be a huge disparity between numbers of guns owned and the number of people who actually practice shooting them on a regular basis. just look at the number of gun stores as compared to the number of shooting ranges available in an area. This scares me just a little

[XemaSab]

55. Welcome to DU!

In this area we've got a lot of gun stores and only a couple "official" ranges, but there are also areas where people go and target shoot out in the boonies, and I'm sure there are a lot of private ranges on the ranches around here.

[REP]

39. Access and promotion plus the equipment isn't cheap

There are programs for serious marksmanship, but not everyone knows about them. Shooting takes hours of practice - and that means a place to shoot, something to shoot with and lots of bullets, which can get very expensive, even if shooting .22s. The rifles used in competition shooting aren't cheapo models found at SquallMart.

To become a proficient shooter requires long hours of practice, concentrating and being very still. While this is fun to do, it's not that much fun to watch, especially for those just being exposed to the sport. There's no way to jazz it up (nor should it be; it's about precision). Competition shooting is the antithesis of shoot-em-up yahoo gun culture.

[rug]

41. That will change when droning is added as an event.

[baldguy]

42. The targets don't bleed enough.

[Tom Ripley]

43. Because they can't be drunk during the event

[JonLP24]

44. Rhode won 5 consecutive in Skeet

[graywarrior]

45. Sarah Palin is a good shot

from a helicopter as she shoots defenseless wolves.

[jmowreader]

49. Thanks for the qualification

Remember the infamous "Sarah Palin's Alaska" footage where she went caribou hunting, and fired so many rounds at a caribou the poor thing died of old age? Normally, "Sarah Palin" and "good shot" don't go together in any sentence that doesn't also contain the words "will never be."

[graywarrior]

58. Oh gosh-a-roo, I must have missed that episode and the entire series

[jmowreader]

63. This is one of YouTube's Greatest Hits...

It's right up there with the guys who microwaved an airbag:

[graywarrior]

65. Well, that just pissed me off!

Gawd, I cannot stand that woman.

[krispos42]

52. No antlers on the targets... n/t

[PavePusher]

54. One reason might be that the most popular shooting competitions in the U.S....

focus on long-range target shooting, and practical/tactical diciplines. If you proposed those as Olympic sports, most of the international governing bodies for the shooting sports would probably have a conniption or a coronary. (They've forgotten thier history, y'see.) Hell, there was a serious proposal a while back to replace the .22 rifles, and even some of the air guns, with lasers, so as to reduce the promotion of violence, or some such fucktardery.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. You *do* know you're interrupting the bigotry in this thread with facts, right?

Pentathlon already has gone to lasers. Now, it's "running, jumping, and laser pointing"

[PavePusher]

59. Holy Fuck, I didn't know they'd actually gone through with it.

What a buch of candy-asses.

[PavePusher]

60. P.S. Check here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014180702

You're not paying attention.

[DFW]

61. The NRA goes for quantity over quality, maybe? N/T

[petronius]

62. It's a devious national secuity scheme. We let the Chinese et al win lots of medals,

but when other countries get cocky and the Soviet paratroopers come floating down we will clean. their. fucking. clocks. Wolverines!


(Seriously, given the rarity of people who can compete at the Olympic level in anything, I'd be surprised if there was ever a meaningful correlation between Olympic success and the popularity of a sport in a given country...)

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

64. Popular US competition focuses on long range and/or tactical skills.

This requires the use of large caliber and/or semiautomatic weapons. International competitors are often limited to single shot .22 rimfire (very small & short range). Even when US most bench shooters use .22 caliber, it's usually high velocity centerfire caliber .22 for long range and/or high ballistic coefficient. There is almost no way other countries or the Olympic committee would agree to using "real" rifles. Heck, in some of the countries, even the modest .22lr rifles already pose issues with local gun control laws.

In short, our open/advanced gun culture itself is exactly the reason there is a disconnect between Americans winning championships and shooting popularity.

[Patiod]

66. Well, there was the Skeet Chick's gold medal. 99/100 doesn't suck.

I watched that American chick shoot skeet (99/100!!!!!!!!) and really, really want to try that.

I LOVE to shoot. You'll see me out in GD arguing with the gun fetish absolutists, because I'm a proponent of sensible gun regulation (such as treating guns like cars). But boy, is target shooting FUN.

Many years ago after a guy climbed into my bedroom window while I was sleeping, (I got out just ahead of him) my dad took me to a local shooting range and had me do some target shooting with his Baretta. It was so amazingly fun!! I turned down his offer to give me the gun (way too many reasons not to have a loaded gun in my house, including my Quaker beliefs), but really really want to go to the shooting range again.

Sport shooting should be able to co-exist (as it does in many, many other countries - I'm thinking like Israel) with sensible safety regulations and controls.