Why Street Racing is better than NASCAR.

[CanSocDem]

I should amend the title to " Why Street Racing (I experienced as a 16 yr old- '63) is better........", but, aside from the speed, there is still a philosophical argument to be made for the hand to hand, unregulated, spontaneous competition that often pop's up in our egocentric culture.

To be clear, I prefer a bar fight over the mass-marketed martial arts/boxing business. But after tuning into yesterdays NASCAR race I realized I preferred the late night tire-squealing sprints to the next red or yellow traffic light, at a time when muscle-cars were almost as rare as the city cops to the manufactured patriotic and pretentious corporate woo-woo that is trying to compete for my interest.

We never stopped in the street to doff our hats and sing O Canada...public displays of religious beliefs were NEVER seen and we absolutely discouraged spectators. The prescence of even one could cancel the race.

But when everything was in order and the race was held and nobody had traffic tickets, the ride home was rich with the satisfaction of competing at the level of All In.


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[Mopar151]

1. You, sir, have earned my eternal contempt

Since the 30's our sport has worked ceaselessly to keep motorsport in a controlled enviroment where, first and foremost, we don't injure innocent bystanders.

And only a complete psychopath can run "All In" on the street. If you want to win where I compete (www.hillclimb.org), you have to be ready to enter a blind corner on the "wrong" side of the road at 100 mph, absolutely flat on the gas, with complete faith that the course workers have kept the road clear.

[taterguy]

2. They don't sing I Canada at NASCAR races

Dumbass

[Mopar151]

3. Actually, they do, at least in the Northeast

Lot of Canadian plates in the lots at NHMS.

[Ikonoklast]

6. They did at Loudon.

Watkins Glen, too.

Lots of Canadians there, including drivers.

[Blue_Tires]

38. Montreal?

Don't know if they sang it or not, but nascar does have an even there...

[Ptah]

4. I especially treasure that time he hit the tree at 100 mph.

[Ikonoklast]

5. The best street racer on Earth will get their lunch eaten at most sanctioned events.

There is a magnitude of difference between the talent of those that think they are fast, and those that can prove they are.

The first time is usually a very humbling experience for them.

[CanSocDem]

9. Which is why...

...few of us persued "sanctioned" events.

These were encounters, late at night, subject to the usual unsettling demands of adolescent angst and the chance encounter of another early muscle car. There was more excitement in the 15 or 20 minutes of this competition than 4 hours of your sanctioned event.

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[Ikonoklast]

10. You'll never know, then.

I held an AMA racing license with a regional number and raced short track, TT, half-mile and road racing, along with club-sanctioned RR endurance events.

If you are trying to tell me that two kids street racing is more exciting for the participants than throwing your bike sideways at the end of the start/finish straight on a half-mile dirt track oval with twelve other guys at your elbow all in excess of 100mph, I'll have to disagree.

[Mopar151]

20. Watch the video in post #17

And see what you'll never have (and never did) the balls to do.

[Mopar151]

16. Yup- and they know it, too. They wanna hide from guys who can really drive and make cars run fast.

They find out real quick about the difference between drivin' kinda fast and just as fast as that m#%&*@# will go! And sometimes they find out that the tuneup that's quick at the stoplight blows the f*&% up when you spend 30 sec. at WOT with the engine fully loaded.

[Ikonoklast]

19. Many Moons ago, when I thought I was one fast hot-shoe, I decided to step up my game.

Not even the Big Leagues, mind you, never turned Pro, just racing other privateers.

That was the steepest learning curve I ever experienced.

It was almost embarrassing how slow I was, compared to guys that had been doing it for years.

My one racing buddy called me The Moving Pylon.

After doggedly refusing to give up, three years later I finished fifth in overall points in the region.

Had a blast.

[Ikonoklast]

23. Here's the guy that fixes my junk when I break it, Kurt Neighbor...world record holder.

Kurt's in the near lane.

Thirty-five years of racing that car, and never got one scratch on it, until...
http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-racing/news/19311-neighbor-discusses-nmca-crash

Saw the car in the shop on the lift on the Tuesday after this crash last year, Kurt was already rebuilding "Stinky".


This car is out of the same shop, Skip Koester's Ford Thunderbolt.

Skip warming them up.

[IMG][/IMG]

Skipper is the fastest fat old guy I know.

[Blue_Tires]

44. Good on him for keeping it running reliably all these years...

[Populist_Prole]

7. I understand what you mean. Today it's all "sizzle" instead of steak.

Today "motorsports" are very little "motor" and too much "sports", with all the hype inducing garbage designed to bring in big $$$ for madison ave and the media.

"Back in the day", we would street race but only on deserted wide straight sections marked out in quarter miles. Sometimes we would mutually agree to start from a slow roll from a 2 lane section when traffic is light, and only to the point when someone clearly won. Nobody wanted to get caught by the cops, or even entertain the thought of careening through slower moving traffic, residential areas, or dangerous topography. We wish we had a local drag strip and I would not condone such activities in such congestion.

The few times a few of us brought our cars to the nearest 1/4 mile dragway ( a 70+ mile ride, one-way ) provided the most fun. Drag strips are the best and most safe way to have a good "heads-up" race or "grudge match". Fast forward to today, the only drag racing I like to watch ( and the only motorsports I like to watch ) is regular working class types who work on their own cars, and preferably drive their cars to the track and back square up and just race heads-up. That or some nostalgia drags as part of a classic event.

I don't care at all for all the big name races where the drivers are the only stars, driving mutated monstrosities festooned with logos ( as is the driver's clothing ) that aren't street drivable. It's as bad as NASCAR. I'm more like "I heard Tim G hand ported is intake and rejetted his carb, and wants to see if he can break into the 12's". Now that's racing.

[HopeHoops]

8. Simple. In street racing you can make right turns.

[fbguy_144]

13. exactly.

[Mopar151]

17. See if you can find some right turns here.

The "nut check" I mentioned earlier occurs at 1:18 or so. And that is a 100% legal, sanctioned, insured time trial.

[HopeHoops]

27. Well, that's not NASCAR. It reminds me of Rt. 108 in MD where I REALLY learned to drive.

And by that, I mean driving like stupid fucking idiot at way too high a speed. I know how to handle a car now! I just don't drive like that anymore (I have kids, well, adult kids, but still).

[Mopar151]

28. No, that's not NASCAR

Though it's a Nascar Whelen Tour style car, with surprisingly few changes to turn both ways. - and about 300# of ballast came up missin' (now about 2300#, 500 hp)

Our club(s) have been doing this stuff for 50 years+ - we love to drive fast, but we really don't want to run over Grandma! And this gives us a socially responsible outlet. There is a similar series in Pennsylvania, and in the Northwest - a few other "hills" around the country as well.
I jump in people's stuff about street racing because they are glorifying stupidity, and they make it harder for legitimate racers to do what we do. The whole idea that legitimacy somehow takes away from the thrill comes from a couple places, IMHO. Money street racing is a hustler's game - it's about winning bets, not who can make a given car the fastest or drive it the best. And some would rather take a chance on killing an innocent than be shown up for the goobers they are - even to 5 railbirds and their buddy on grudge night, 'cuz you can't bullshit the timers or the "Tree".

PS: The guy driving that car is safe as houses - Lajoie seat, Impact 6-point belts, Nomex suit, Simpson HANS, Bell helmet with fresh air system. His wife insists, daughters concur.

[HopeHoops]

29. Yeah, well I was young and bullet proof when I did that stuff. I drive a minivan now.

Then again, it is a 3.4 ltr Pontiac with tight steering and it can blow away the foreign go-carts with the loud exhaust systems off the line. I do that once in a while just for kicks. Having your pimped crap-mobile shamed by a minivan really pisses those guys off, especially the ones with the silly spoilers on the back - like they have ground effects to begin with.

[Mopar151]

31. We've had a minivan compete before, and currently have some veggie diesels running

Grins at the top at least as bad as the badass stuff! Around here, the stupid buzzy exhausts are called "fart cans" or "grapefruit shooters"

[HopeHoops]

32. I like to yell, "I'M PRETTY SURE THEY MAKE MUFFLERS FOR THAT KIND OF SHITBOX!"

Then again, I'm a dick.

[Blue_Tires]

40. Actually, most drivers in Finland learn this way

One of the reasons they have such a lofty reputation for skill and driver control:

[HopeHoops]

45. That was great! Two key points on the driving technique...

1) If you've seen the movie Cars, Doc Hudson tells Lightning to turn the opposite way on a corner. They not only do this in the clip, but I figured that out on my own (the hard way).

2) The thing with the cones is a regular maneuver practiced by high school students in the US - we just call it "doing doughnuts".

[Mopar151]

49. An exxcellent illustration of technique

Lebanon Valley, NY - literally using the engine's power to turn the car

[HopeHoops]

51. Well, that's another thing. People BRAKE coming out of turns. Always floor it. Always.

Braking gives you no control or stability. Putting your foot through the fuel injectors takes you out of a turn cleanly, front or rear wheel drive. It's simple physics.

[Mopar151]

52. There are exceptions to that rule, but they are for the advanced student.....

If your foot isn't letting up on the brake pedal by the time you turn in, you're doin' it wrong.

[HopeHoops]

53. Agreed - come in slow - go out fast. Braking in the middle of a turn is a no-no.

[pscot]

11. Watching grass grow

is better than nascar.

[kurtzapril4]

12. That's for sure

I don't even know why it's still called stock car racing anymore....none of those cars are stock. I like road racing of all types...people with their muscle cars drag racing, and F1. And demolition derby. Nascar has just gotten boring.

[Mopar151]

18. The cars havent been "stock" for 60+ years.

And there are a couplle of ex-IMSA (Firehawk series) "stock" cars that run in our series. They are about as "stock" as the space shuttle......

[HopeHoops]

33. Other than the Ford, Chevy, or Dodge logo on the front you can't tell them apart.

Well, other than the corporate logos plastered all over them. Most people don't know it, but NASCAR was born out of the moonshine running business, and at the time it was almost exclusively Fords. They ran on sand tracks mostly. I think the beginning of the end was when they banned the SuperBird. It's so generic now.

[Mopar151]

37. Stock car racing was around before the heyday of the moonshine business

Where do you think the liquor runners got their parts? Early short track ("Jalopy&quot racing had a lot of Fords, true - but "almost exclusively" is a pretty big stretch. Hudsons, Oldsmobiles, Cadillacs, and Chryslers were major players in the early days - Junior Johnson's favorite liquor running car was a '40 Ford humpback sedan with an engine from a Caddilac "amb-a-lance" and a 3/4 ton truck rearend and front hubs - but the special parts that made it work came from all over the country.

As far as sand tracks - they are almost nonexistent except for the old Daytona beach races - most were/are clay or clay-loam mix - the best ones are tacky enough to stick to your shoes, and watered to the point that they are a little springy to walk on.

If you want to learn a lot about old-time racing, and laugh your ass off too - get a copy of Andy Granatelli's autobiography "They Call Me Mr. 500" It even explains the start of the "Jato car" urban myth.

[HopeHoops]

43. It's been over 2 years since I read it, but "Driving With The Devil" by Neal Thompson...

... is my primary source. Although there's some earlier history in the book going back to the one-of-a-kind cars Ford and Olds put head-to-head in 1901 or so, it really begins with Raymond Parks meeting Walter Day (1928-ish) and Parks' association with Vogt. I'm not familiar with "Call Me Mr. 500", but it sounds good.

I was stuck in the hospital for two weeks when I read Thompson's book (along with SEVERAL others) and I haven't read it since. It's a really good read. As for the "almost exclusively", that's from the modified stock cars (bootleggers) that originally were a side show rather than Indy or AAA. Even if the chassis was not ford, they often put a '33 or so Ford engine in the car for the speed. And yes, Daytona was red clay, but I'm sure it discussed the sand races too.

On a side note, speaking of engine swapping, when I was in high school a pair of brothers each had a Ford Pinto (yes, a Pinto), one black, one white. They put 289's in them and had to put on air scoops and dig out the wheel wells just to get the engine to fit. Both had LITTLE TINY wheels in front and what looked like monster truck racing tires in back. They really should have had drag racing bars in back because riding around on just the back wheels wasn't difficult with that configuration. Oh, and yes, they were cop magnets.

On Edit: Shit. Now I want to read that book again.

[Mopar151]

47. I grew up in the inside of Modified racing

My dad was the tech inspector at the local Modified track, and had an absolutely encyclopedic knowledge of early Fords. Pre-war, the "flathead" ford was the engine of choice because of pressurized oiling and the V-8's architechture, which was much more amenable to "high" (3000+!) rpm's. (Henry Ford had to be strongarmed into accepting pressurized oiling in the original design of the flathead)
The chassis is a similar story - Ford's body structure was welded steel, vs steel nailed over wood for GM. The Ford frame was a simple, rugged design, and the suspension geometry was excellent - today's sprint cars and "Eastern" modifieds are still clones of a '32 Ford, geometrically.

[HopeHoops]

50. Really? Sprint cars look like go-carts with fins.

I had a 200 straight six in my Maverick and still have my 68 Galaxie fastback with a 390. The biggest engine I ever had was a 455 4bbl in a Buick Centurian. It could do a buck and still be idling - and for hundreds of miles at a pop. The 69 Cutlass with the 350 4bbl was interesting. When you put your foot through the carb, it would hunker down, sound like it was stalling and then LAUNCH into the air and bounce a few times. It didn't matter if the other car was ahead within 3 seconds. Damn that thing was fast.

Historical fact: I have the owners manual for the Galaxie. It says not to do more than 70 in first gear. I've blown off Cameros in 1st gear and did a neck-snap shift into second at 75. I kept breaking motor mounts (gee, wonder why), even the cop issue mounts. Too much torque. The manifold on that thing weighs at least 70 lbs. I tore the engine apart to clean it and replace the lifters in '81 or so. It was a long job, but damn she ran nicely after that. They were self-adjusting lifters and I'd killed them in a less than merciful way. The springs were so shot that I could push them down with my pinky. I love that car. She needs some frame work and a new tranny, but I'll get her back on the road. I chunked the tranny on a road trip and she still limped home on it, 100 miles away. I'm pretty sure that 3rd's what died, but fuck it, at that point you need a rebuilt one.

I likes me some land yachts.

[Mopar151]

54. I apparently dumped an earlier reply

Get the sprint, street rod. and vintage racing catalogs from "Speedy Bill" http://www.speedwaymotors.com/ They're good reading - and when you look at the running gear parts from sprints and old Fords, you'll see what I mean.

I like the old Fords too - Ol' Homer has been my tow rig for 28 years - '72 F-350, hot-rodded 302 - I did the "torque chain" trick to keep his "heart" between the framerails - Your Galaxie needs this too.

A high performance "reman" transmission will cost you little more than a stock one - maybe less, because the speed parts business is a ruthlessly efficent and competitive distribution channel http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/411038/10002/-1?parentProductId=754409 will bolt right in. Thanks to Cobra kits and the like, the aftermarket is right up to date with your "FE" series engine.

[HopeHoops]

55. All I want to do now is restore her to factory condition. I prefer that for cars of that era.

[Mopar151]

56. It's more about update & improve, to me

The idea is to preserve the look and feel of "back in the day" with better functionality. There's bunches of this stuff you can do cheaply, that make the car a lot more enjoyable to really drive.
Couple of the best ones, from my experience with Ol' Homer - GM internal regulator alternator (I smoked 8 Autolites!), and H4 headlight conversions, with relays. No more "Found on Road, Dead!"
If you paint the chrome oil pan on the transmission at the link I sent, a concours judge could'nt tell it from stock - it'll just work better and last longer.

[HopeHoops]

57. Now all I want to do is cruise and just let people look at her. Wheel candy if you will.

She's beautiful to begin with and I won't be racing her again. If I can get her restored, I'll probably take her to the all-Ford event in Carlisle, PA and probably the muscle car event. There are two annual events at the park a half mile from me that feature classic cars - the one coming up is Oct 6-7. I just can't afford to deal with it now (more concerned with keeping my daily wheels running). One day.

[Mopar151]

58. Drive & enjoy....

I don't race the truck - I just like making it home on Sunday night with the headlights working.

[flvegan]

14. Seems like apples to oranges to me.

NASCAR is more of an endurance race. I don't much care for it, but there's a great deal of skill and ability from both driver and pit crew. "Street racing" is (at most) a quarter mile drag race in a straight line. Stoplight to stoplight...that sort of thing. As a former street racer, I have to say that like it or not, the only folks likely to die in a NASCAR race are the drivers. In my day and in my circle of car freaks, we had specific places we'd race which greatly limited the harm we could do to anyone outside those physically racing. These days, I fear one too many "Fast and Furious" movies has given too many folks reason to act really stupid. Even after the entire "Hulk Hogan's kid damn near killed that guy" episode here locally, people haven't learned to keep it on the track.

Yep, I did it when I was younger and stupider. I might at time do a zero-to-speed-limit at a traffic light against someone, but that's my limit these days. I not only have too much to lose, but realize that I also have too much to potentially take away from some family I've never met by my foolish actions.

BTW, if you look around, you'll see more than enough "street racers" with sponsorships.

[CanSocDem]

21. I was worried...

...that people would only know "street racing" from the movies or from the spectacular crashes that make the television news. You and Populist Prole understand what I'm talking about and how it was nothing like it is today.

Stoplite to stoplite...no straight pipes....factory set-ups.....anything not proven in 3-6 blocks we'd take out of town. No helmuts....no leather driving gloves.

No prizes-unless you value bragging rights like we did.

.

[Mopar151]

24. This looks like so much fun

&feature=share&list=PLD879F7B74815A81B

Nobody got killed when you did it, and you think that your'e hot stuff 'cuz you got away with somthing - making you somehow "better" than the real racers. Get over yourself - you were a punk then, and you're talking like a punk now.

[MiddleFingerMom]

26. My-my-my-my-my. "you were a punk then, and you're talking like a punk now" Clint? Mr Eastwood?

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This is The Lounge. It may be time for you to step away from the computer and lighten up, Francis.
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[Mopar151]

30. I gotta thing about punks who talk smack

About their stupidity being superior to the best efforts of "real deal" top competitors.
I'm not a big football fan (watch a game with my BIL and you'll understand), but I don't go around telling people that I can kick Vince Wilfork's ass.

[CanSocDem]

34. OK...OK...you're the "real deal"...

...and we're all just poseurs because we grew out of the 'need' to have a faster car than anybody else.

That you're all excited about this thread and determined to establish your authority in the area of auto racing is just further evidence of how the sport has lost its' soul and is forced to cater to brandnames, regulations and jargon.

Think of "street racing" as the OWS of motor sports.

.

[Mopar151]

35. Dood, you REALLY don't get it.

The sport has lost it's soul? 'Cuz somebody wears a helmet, and races in a controlled enviroment?Forced to cater to regulations and jargon? REALLY? I think of street racing as the "blac bloc anarchists" of motorsports, and I ain't no poser. If I grew out of anything, it was the need to do criminally stupid s*&^ without thinking about it first. My authourity gets tested now'n then, but I have the cred to back up what I say & do.

[MiddleFingerMom]

36. see post #26 Your combativeness/Intertubes macho guy behavior might be more appropriate in GD/Meta

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You're convincing no one here of ANYTHING you're saying or trying to portray.
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Ungrit your teeth, unclench your fists and try again, if you wish. This is a light-hearted Forum --
not a place where "tough guys" find anything more than laughter and/or derision.
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[MiddleFingerMom]

15. I assume it's still going on. In the 90's, friends of mine who were into organized drag racing...

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... took me to a strictly warehouse district in Philadelphia where street drag races had been
occurring for perhaps decades... EVERY night. Once or twice a year, the police would raid
them (more to reassure the public that "something was being done" rather than actually
stopping it -- it was safer to have this semi-organized location than city-wide spontaneous
racing).
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Some cars were completely NON-street-legal and would be brought in on trailers. Most
were personal muscle cars. There may have been a thousand spectators lining the WIDE
boulevard where the races took place. Seven days a week.
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It was a laid-back party atmosphere with many food vendor trucks.
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There was one loss-of-control accident without injuries while I was there (I bet this happens
at "organized" events, too.
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It was an outlaw event, to be sure -- relatively safe (everything is relatively safe to one
degree or another) and extremely fun and exciting to an "observer".
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I really hope it's still going on.
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[kurtzapril4]

22. Yeah.

This is still going on in Chicago, in industrial areas on the weekends. It's great fun.

[Mopar151]

25. If you want to see street car racing done right - look here

Hot Rod "Drag Week" - 5 tracks in 5 days, you gotta drive the cars between tracks - over 1000 miles of road driving, no towing or support vehicle.

[Blue_Tires]

42. I don't even know if the OP is that hardcore...

I think any good ol' Friday night test-and-tune is enough to feed his inner speed demons...

[Mopar151]

48. If he brings a friend for support......... n./t

[Blue_Tires]

39. I get your nostalgic point, but times are different now...

More traffic, more pedestrians, and local cops or state troopers with nothing better to do are just thirstin' to snap on the cuffs and impound your car...

Just save it for the track, imo...Every city and county in the U.S. has a drag strip, gymkhana or road course within reasonable distance where you can run your daily driver all Friday night (or the whole weekend)...If you've got a car that's a little more 'serious' than a daily driver, there's a place for that too...FWIW during my last track weekend at Virginia Int'l Raceway, there was a 68(!) year-old first-time retiree with a brand new, just-broken-in Nissan GT-R and he had the time of his life...

I know some still prefer the "American Graffiti" -style romanticism of cruising or light-to-light street racing (Maybe the Woodward Cruise in Detroit still does it to an extent), but for the sake of the rest of us, I hope they at least have the smarts to find a VERY remote place and remember their own personal safety...

[Populist_Prole]

41. Good post. Well said.

What's good is there is that there are ( from what I can see ) more drag strips now than in "my day" in the early 80's. Let's face it: Today, "getting on it" as we used to say now means look 'round for cops ( from a slow roll ) a blast through 1st, 2nd and easing off not long after hitting third because otherwise you'll be going way way faster than "benefit of the doubt territory" ( as we used to say ) and it's just not worth it. In any case it's not speed per se' that's so thrilling but the acceleration. Someone said ( I wish it was me ) that "it's not how fast you go, but how fast you go fast". I don't at all mind donning a helmet to square-off head-up, or even bracket style and wring it out.

P/S, and preemptive rebuttal to some ( would be ) snob types and kibbitzers: Cars run in 1/4 mile speed contests, even ones with hairy V8's with ( gasp ) OHV can indeed go around corners and stop, so get off your high horses.

[CanSocDem]

46. Well, I'm 65 years old now...

...and after spending most of my working life as a professional driver in one capacity or another, I can safely say that I learned how to balance personal responsibility with public safety.

Many of my youthful indiscretions, though scandalous in hindsight, taught me self-reliance, self confidence and a healthy scepticism of the proscribed order. I gave up my Camaro for a Ford Tempo in '05 as a nod to 'conservation' and as a symbolic disengagement from my need for speed, and my growing social conciousness.

I guess I'll have to survive on fond memories as opposed to glossy photographs and shiny trophies.

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[Mopar151]

59. Right up your alley - Rodeo du Camions

Uphill drag racing, with HUGE payloads on the trailer. Nick Gagnon is rumored to have 2600 hp under the hood. Spectator control looks a little sketchy - but I ran in a hillclimb in St. Adele, PQ, and it takes serious effort to keep Canadian fans out of the middle of the road!

PS: St. Adele>? That's a party town, if there ever was one!