When you die, there will be nobody waiting to greet you

[Taverner]

There will be no white light, no reunion with loved ones, no long gone pets, children or parents.

Friends who died before you won't meet you in the afterlife, and there will be no paradise.

That is because there is no heaven. No hell.

Just now.

Just here.

If you regret something you did, you will never have a chance to change it.

All we have is now - RIGHT now, as a matter of fact.

So what are you doing right now?

[In_The_Wind]

1. living like today was my last one

[img][/img]

[Sekhmets Daughter]

25. Sad...I was expecting

seven randy 19-year-olds whom I could teach....

[In_The_Wind]

26. timing is everything

[img][/img] ~ ~> http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018312347

[undeterred]

39. Is that the secular version of 72 virgins?

[Sekhmets Daughter]

40. absolutely...I don't think

I would be able to give proper attention to 72...

[WilliamPitt]

2. Reading this post.

Duh.

[Duer 157099]

10. Replying to this point

Duh

[Katashi_itto]

63. Regreting I read this post. This is depressing.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. You're in a dark place today, my dear Taverner...

Right now I'm sitting here, typing my words to you. Pretty soon, my husband and I will go out for an early lunch...

I agree that all we have is now. In fact, I recently wrote this poem about that very thing. Perhaps you'll enjoy it.


Bright Line

now is its time

the rest is either over
or

never

Time slides over us
we are hardly aware
it does not stand still

Do we realize

the future may never arrive
and the past is

done

Here is our bright line

We must live
on this spot
or
watch as

it
hisses under
us

it will turn to drab grey nothing
and

vanish.

[Taverner]

11. Excellent Poem!

Thank you for sharing! I like it a lot.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

22. Aw, thank you! I'm glad you like it...

[Frosty1]

154. Kudos to you Peggy

for recognizing "The Dark Spot"

[Wait Wut]

4. Prove it.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't know, won't know until I die. I doubt I'll be able to come back and fill y'all in. Good people on both sides of the argument. Bad people, too.

In other words, have a great weekend! It could be your last...or not!!!

[DFW]

5. RIGHT now?

In about 5 minutes, I'm going upstairs to watch one of the last episodes of "Ein Fall Für Zwei" with my wife, share a plate of tangerines and sliced apples with her while we watch, and tune out for the next 2 hours.

It's Friday, and I don't have to work this evening. Don't call us, we'll call you!

[TrogL]

21. Where do you get tangarines this time of year?

[DFW]

54. Mostly from countries within a 3 to 4 hour flight from here

Last edited Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Morocco, Israel, places like that

[loli phabay]

6. i believe differently from you so i see life differently

Though i do live a very full life and every day is a great day.

[Gorp]

7. "Hell is other people" - Sartre

[HERVEPA]

8. Oh No! Does this mean also no rainbow bridge????

[RebelOne]

14. Or no doggie heaven? I was hoping to see my canine friends. n/t

[trueblue2007]

167. this whole topic is a not true

SORRY... BUT I BELIEVE IN AFTERLIFE
I believe there is a HEAVEN
I believe there is a HELL

[callous taoboy]

9. Waiting around to die.

Just kidding.

[Taverner]

12. Did I just hear a request for Townes Van Zandt?

[pintobean]

19. For you, I'd go with this

[callous taoboy]

31. Visited Townes' grave a few years ago. That was heavy.

[nomorenomore08]

113. The version from "Heartworn Highways" is just staggering.

The moment when the old man starts crying is as fucking "real" as it gets...

[Frosty1]

155. That was beautifully moving

Thank you for sharing.

[Loryn]

13. I'm respectfully disagreeing with you.

While getting ready for work.

[Taverner]

16. I disagree with thee! I disagree with thee! I disagree with thee!

Drive safely and take care

[HERVEPA]

18. Any evidence for this disagreement, or do you just feel you need to believe it?

I'd love to believe that I'd be reunited with loved ones when I die, but there is absolutely no rational basis for believing this.
Wouldn't you be just as likely to be greeted by hungry angry felsh-eating microbes or killer bees, if you believe there is something after you die?

[orleans]

53. no. n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

15. I'm hoping that intelligent life somewhere in the universe

will in its unending quest for total knowledge of reality, which seems to be an attribute of intelligence, seek to become one with every mind that's ever lived, any place and anywhere in time.

As far as what I'm doing right now, I'm dying. Every instant of reality is a death of the past and all we have is memory.

[Taverner]

17. "He who is not busy being born is busy dying" - Bob Dylan eom

[In_The_Wind]

62. imo: Dylan is wise

[BlancheSplanchnik]

20. I believe it's all Energy. Up to us how we use it--whether we seek the growth/better/wise

Lively, hopeful...all that good stuff or whether (or for how long) we give in to the inertia, negativity, anger, despair....all that negative stuff which we all struggle with. Even those who are very wise, very evolved, experience this cycle. What's important is what we do with it.

As energy can transform but not be destroyed, according to proven laws of physics, I also believe that applies to the Energy of the Universe, Life.......
No one knows for sure what happens when this incarnation is over so in the meantime, our only choice is to be ourselves and hopefully keep growing----Even at those times when we can only manage a tiny step forward!

It takes dedication to keep fighting, because the opportunity to fight is there before us in every moment....we will always cycle through the impermanent joys and sufferings within and that occur around us. Building our own personal strength, giving and giving support to others, is the best way to deal with the realities of life, joys and sorrows, for our own sake and for the sake of the influence we send out around us.

We build our own fortune; it is not something granted or taken away from outside us, even despite circumstances that seem forced on is. How do i apply wisdom, how do i dredge up courage, *again*? These are the real life questions that are important.

It is good to have a philosophy that makes sense in a real world.

It is our own heaven we fight for, our own hell we fight to grow through.

Heaven and hell are not somewhere outside us; both lie only within one's heart. Awakened to this, one is called a Buddha. Deluded about it, one is called an ordinary person. (Paraphrased from the Buddhist teacher, Nichiren)

[Cal33]

23. Since resuscitation methods have improved, millions who would have died in the past are now being

brought back to life. Roughly 8% of those who were clinically dead (flat EEGs, etc.) have had
various experiences while "on the other side." Some were clinically dead for a few minutes, others
for hours, even days. Some have had minor experiences, others major, deep ones.

You're stating as fact "There will be no white light...." that some of these "near-death experiencers"
will not agree with.

Einstein was born to a non-practicing Jewish family. Religion played little or no role in his life as a
child. I was surprised to learn that he had written quite a bit about spirituality, which were
conclusions of his own after he had become an adult. Among other statements, he had said that
it would be difficult for him to believe that there could be such order throughout the entire universe
without there also being some Supreme Intelligence present to sustain it.

But I do agree with you that NOW is the most important, if not the only, moment we can live in.
And every NOW moment well lived makes the chances for having better future moments that are
dependent on how we are handling our here and now.

[Taverner]

24. The "white light" reported is just what your synapses do when shutting down

Supreme Intelligence?

Seriously?

There is no evidence, or reason to believe in anything other than natural explanations.

[raccoon]

27. Thank you. nt

[Cal33]

28. There are international institutions that have been involved in debates and discussions

on this topic for many decades.

There are a few cases reported of a born-blind patient who had died on the operating table.
While the medical personnel were making efforts at resuscitation, the non-physical part of
the patient had floated out of his/her body and was watching and listening to all the goings
on. The resuscitations were successful.

Post-op the patients, of course, were still blind. But they reported to the nurses and
surgeons what each one of them had been doing and saying during the resuscitation.
These medical personnel were astounded, but could give no "natural" explanation. How
could these patients have seen when they had never seen? They were born blind, and
still were blind.

To really go deeply into this subject, you'll have to do a lot (and I mean a LOT) of research.
There are many institutions of world-renown involved in the links given below: Just begin with:

www.IANDS.ORG
www.NDERF.COM
www.near-death.com

[Taverner]

29. If this is true, why have scientists never been able to document "out of body experiences"?

In your dreams, things can appear quite real. The perception of time changes as well.

[Cal33]

30. Questions like yours have been asked thousands of times. If you do not intend to do

serious research on this subject, just abandon it altogether. I know. I've spent
more than 20 years on it, and I am convinced. Answers to a few questions will
do nothing for anyone. However, here is my one and only answer: Just
look for Eben Alexander, M.D. He's a neurosurgeon and was an atheist
prior to his near-death experience. Just google "Eben Alexander."

The three links I've given you can keep you reading for years, if you really
are interested in seeking truth. They give all the pros and cons impartially.
They are not one-sided.

All the best.

[Taverner]

76. These charlatans fake corrleation for cause...

They do not follow the Scientific Method

[orleans]

86. wow--

sounds like you throw accusations at others, calling them charlatans for *your* cause

do you accuse someone of being a liar if they say they had any type of nde or paranormal experience? or are they just crazy in your opinion?

always remember--just because something never happened to you doesn't mean it can't happen - it just hasn't happened to you.

[Taverner]

129. Any research that does not use the Scientific Method is flawed

And to openly rely on only anecdotal evidence is bad science

[Heddi]

116. Question...how would a born-blind patient know how to describe things around him/her?

If this person was born blind, and never saw a thing in their life, hwo could they describe an operating table, or nurses, or doctors? They're born blind. Have no idea what an operating table *looks* like. Knows what it feels like, what it smells like But not what it looks like. Knows what a face feels like but not what it looks like. Knows what the sounds of an operating room sounds like but has no idea that the clank clank is a scalpel being handed to a doctor or a suction canister being put in a holder or a tray table being knocked against the wall.

So I'm just gonna go out and call bullshit on the claim that someone who was born blind and has lived their whole life without sight can report "to the nurses and surgeons what each one of them had been doing and saying during the resuscitation."

[Cal33]

122. To begin with (1) The patient also described what s/he had heard the doctors

Last edited Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

and nurses were saying.

(2) People born blind can compensate to an appreciable degree with
their other senses,: hearing, touch. Helen Keller became blind and deaf at
the age of 18 months. And look at her accomplishments! Of course, she was
fortunate enough to have parents wealthy enough to have her taught by specialists
in people with such handicaps. And the patients I was referring could hear. Sight and
hearing are the two main senses of learning for us. The others help, too. You'd
be surprised how much can still be learned through inference with the other
senses, even when one can't see.

(3) The patients couldn't see with their physical eyes. But the part that came out
of their physical body during their clinical death was not their physical eyes. This
is the main point: They could "see " and "understand" with their spirit, which was
temporarily out of body. Eyes, noses, ears....are different names given to the
different parts of the physical body. You are thinking in terms of the physical
body only. I don't blame you for thinking in this way. It is the only way one can
possibly think, when one doesn't believe there is anything else to a person
besides the physical.

The paragraph immediately above is what this discussion is mainly about. Spirits
are not bodies. Spirits have no bodies. Have you ever had the thought "Then
how do they communicate with one another?" Very likely not, since you don't
believe they even exist.

Here's another point for you to ponder: The average person when asked "What's
the opposite of life?" would answer "Death." In my opinion the opposite of death
is "birth." One is born and one dies. "Life" has no opposite. Life is an energy
force. And spirit is this energy force. Life = spirit. We know from physics that
energy is permanent. It may change form, but it cannot cease to exist. "Physical
life" exists for as long as this "energy force" is present in it, and the body dies
when this "energy force" leaves.

[Taverner]

144. You do know that blind people use the part of their brain, normally used for sight...

...for hearing?

Thus they can "see" sounds

When you look at something, you are making about 90% of it up in your head. You really only "See" a small circle

[Cal33]

146. I have not heard of this before. But I am familiar with the idea that it is possible for nearby

brain-cells (neurones) to at least partially take over some of the functioning of
those that have been destroyed. So, what you have said does seem reasonable.

About the subject of God: There are other ways of looking at this concept besides
those offered by standard religions. To me, God is more like the Original Source of
Energy that is the cause of everything that exists. This includes you and me. And
we are all a part of that Source. I no longer have the picture of an old man up in the
clouds watching what's going on the earth below. He is up there, and we are down
here.

I feel He is everything, and we are part of it also. We are all one, like a drop of
water from the ocean is a part of the ocean, whether in the form of vapor, water
or ice. Even the Bible states that we are made in God's image and likeness. We
each have taken on a temporary physical body in order to experience whatever we
came to experience, and for whatever reason. I'll stop here. Other people have
other points of view. That's fine, too.

[Taverner]

148. I see it as the other way around, we created god in Man's image

[Cal33]

160. Yes, many are doing that, especially those who claim that others who don't believe the way they do,

will be going to hell.

[barbtries]

163. that seems clear to me too.

looks human? all powerful, all knowing, everywhere at once? i have believed for years that people made up gawd and not the other way around.

[Taverner]

164. Especially since gawd evolved as man did

Evangies and Fundies say gawd never changes - but he/she/it/them has

[Cal33]

166. This thought has crossed my mind also: The representation of God as an old man in the clouds

probably came from one of the great painters of the Renaissance. Now comes the
difficult part: How does one represent God in a painting? The painter possibly
chose an old man (to represent wisdom) and up in the clouds looking down (as
someone seeing and knowing everything). Just a fancy of mine.

The Muslims made it a point not to draw pictures of God, the Prophet Muhammad,
or any human being, for that matter.

[mucifer]

119. I watch a lot of people die and I personally think you are wrong.

I am a hospice nurse. Many people who are dying talk to and/or see relatives who have died. It's fairly common. Most people don't experience this, but many do. Yes, it could be that people know they are dying and they hallucinate while their bodies are dying. But, I don't believe that. I believe the dead in many cases help the living die peacefully.

Of course I don't have any proof.

[orleans]

55. not all the nde report seeing any white light even though ALL of their

synapses were shutting down. so if the white light is an effect of that why don't all the nde include white light?

many of these people saw loved ones who had passed
many of these people were overwhelmed by an encompassing feeling of love and peace
many didn't want to come back to life
some people report seeing objects, people, events occurring and overhearing conversations taking place in other locations

the premise is equivalent to stating: there is no ocean because i have never seen one OR there are no other planets b/c i have never seen one

open your mind

[In_The_Wind]

64. I agree ~ open your mind

to all that can be

[Taverner]

74. My mind is open to reasonable explanation

Heaven is far from reasonable

If you can't prove it, then it doesn't exist

[orleans]

85. who said anything about heaven? i certainly did not.

i wasn't talking about heaven--made no mention of it, no reference to it. why are you bringing heaven into this?

oh, that's right. it's in your op. heaven & hell.
well, i wasn't referring to heaven.
(i don't actually believe in heaven and certainly not hell)

i was talking about an afterlife
about life after life
and since *i* saw proof it i tend to believe it exists

so i'll turn your argument around on you
your idea that our energy dies when our body does
"is far from reasonable
if you can't prove it..."

[In_The_Wind]

90. welcome back

[Cal33]

91. What you are implying is that the human brain (or at least the brightest ones) is capable of

understanding everything. I happen to think that the human mind is quite limited in its
capabilities. There are things in nature that we simply don't understand.

One example: a scientist in one area can make changes in a sub-atomic particle. The
same changes will also be observed in all sub-atomic particles of the same type by
scientists in any other part of the world. At the present time, all they can say is that
sub-atomic particles don't seem to obey the laws of macro-particle nature in regard to
space and time. But they don't understand why.

Of course, it's possible we may get to understand this problem sometime in the future.
And there is no end to the number of things we don't understand. But they do exist.

[Taverner]

159. Why? Why does gravity bring you toward it rather than push you away?

It just is

[Frosty1]

156. There are more things on heaven and Earth Horatio....

[Taverner]

158. Perhaps, but the only way we can truly understand them is Scientific Research

Think about it - all of the "mysteries" of religion have been explained by natural explanations

I don't think that's a fluke

[Honeycombe8]

79. There is no evidence that it's "your synapses." You choose to believe that, like others

who choose to believe in what they saw. It's as simple as that.

[Taverner]

81. There is actually quite a bit of evidence...

Check out the chemicals that are released when you die.

Thankfully, you body makes your passing into death tolerable.

[Honeycombe8]

84. I'm familiar with scientists' explanations. It's not evidence of anything.

All it shows is that certain things happen in the brain when certain things happen to other parts of your body. That has nothing to do with whatever the person experiences after death, even temporary death. Of COURSE the brain reacts to whatever happens to the body. That's what a brain does. It reacts to everything that happens to the body.

I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong in your belief. Just pointing out that what you believe is a belief and not knowledge, just as the other beliefs are. We cannot know until we die. But whatever one believes is right, for that person. "Whatever gets you through the night, is all right...it's all right."

[sendero]

89. you can also..

... "see the light" by closing your eyes and pressing on them in various ways.

Natural phenomenon, yes. Spiritual relevance, no.

[felix_numinous]

32. An interesting website

http://www.nderf.org/

What an interesting world we live in, I never forget, I'm just a human being experiencing reality through this tiny brain and body

[davidthegnome]

33. What am I doing right now?

Wondering what makes you so sure. The only way to really have this knowledge is, well... to die, after which, well, I suppose you're probably not coming back to talk about it.

Heaven and hell - loved ones greeting me.. bright white lights, whatever. I'll be the first to admit I have no clue - but neither do you. No one knows any of these things for a fact. Neither intellectual nor preacher can tell us what really (if anything) comes after. This is part of what makes life an adventure, the fact that, eventually, we're going to die... and no one really knows what (if anything) happens next. Perhaps nothing. Perhaps we simply rot, fade away. Or perhaps there are more things on Heaven and earth....

[Taverner]

34. I can only go by the evidence

And the evidence shows there is no brain activity after you die.

Which means there is no "you" anymore.

You are your body, like it or not.

[kwassa]

43. There may be evidence beyond your evidence.

Which we are simply not capable of ascertaining at this moment in history due to the current limitations of scientific knowledge.

[Taverner]

111. This may be true, but Occam's Razor suggests not

[davidthegnome]

47. You may be right.

You may also be wrong. I suppose we'll just have to wait and find out, or fade away to nothing...

It is my hope (not my belief, not my conviction) that there is something after this life. It's not so much because I fear losing this existence, I have less fear of that with every passing year. It's more that I hope there is something better, that there is something more beautiful, more meaningful... that, well... makes more sense, than this life.

If the brain is all we are, then I suppose I'll never know just how disappointed I would have been.

[datasuspect]

174. it's the one thing we will never know, never have certainty about

while we walk around alive.

[zonkers]

35. Whoa. I just came for the strudel.

[Kennah]

172. I came for the porn, or, something like that.

[tavernier]

36. I have had far, far too many things happen in my life

that can't be explained, many having to do with deceased friends and family, so I must respectfully disagree with your opinion... at least for me. But remember that I am very old and I've been around the block a whole shitload of times; and the block holds many surprises.

As they say in Paris, always look up. The best architecture is above your head.

xx Tavernier

[In_The_Wind]

65. well said

namaste

in the wind

[Mr.Bill]

37. I'd be happy if just my dogs were there.

[RebelOne]

38. Yes, me too. n/t

[MrScorpio]

41. No one will be there, except for this guy:

[hunter]

42. Hah! I can leave the holodeck anytime I want.

This 21st century is one of my favorite scenarios.

This is what I see when I'm leaving this place:

wikipedia

But it doesn't stop there. I think it's holodecks within holodecks within holodecks all the way down. Were all immortal in the machine memory.

I have my computer set up in a similar way. Every computer I've owned is emulated on my current system. I've got software and files I've kept for forty years, even some from the 'sixties, and I it's all available instantly on my desktop. I've got family photographs of my grandparents as babies, and my great grandparents as kids.

You know, I always wanted to start a religion. Perhaps I'll call it the Church of Eternal Holographic Memory.

What am I doing right now? Like any good preacher, I'm asking you to give generously to the church...

Thank you.

[Generic Brad]

44. Of course. I'm not welcome in the afterlife

I pissed off too many of the "good" people. I have repeatedly been told by them that I am too horrid to get into heaven. Apparently athiests in interracial relationships are barred from everlasting paradise.

[Cal33]

108. Sounds like you've come across too many rigidly fundamentalist type of people. Are you

living in such an area?

[Generic Brad]

109. Rigid fundamentalism is more a state of mind than a place

Family. What more can I say?

[Cal33]

114. Of course it's a state of mind. But I'd say you'll find a higher percentage of them in

South Carolina than, say, in New York. Wouldn't you agree?

[Generic Brad]

132. I do agree

My immediate family turned hard core fundamentalist. But life is so much better since they shunned me.

[VOX]

45. Respectfully disagree -- partially, and in terms of form.

If one accepts the the principle contained in the ‪first law of thermodynamics‬: that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Most Western beliefs would state that a higher power (God, to many) created this energy, but that same creator is somehow not part of this world; he/she isn't bound by time and space, and is therefore separate from our dimension. Plus, he/she got to invent the rules.

However, in Eastern beliefs, many would state that our world is only a holding tank, as it were, and our individual energies are here for only a brief time, after which we return to an eternal pool of the Tao or Brahman or whatever.

Therefore, in a sense, when we die, we DO join our families, loved ones, pets, ancestors -- the whole show. All the energies will be joined (as they are now, actually), it just won't be in bodily form.

I take comfort in this idea, but am in no hurry to get there. In the meanwhile, you're correct, now is all there is. As musician/writer Mason Williams cleverly put it:

Now was right then
Here it is again
Right now.

[Taverner]

128. Just because there is energy, doesn't mean its you

When you turn off a computer, the energy doesn't disappear, but it's not the 1s and 0s that make up your Windows/Linux/Mac session is it?

[femmocrat]

46. Don't tell me that.

I am sure my dogs are "up" there. I have seen them in dreams.

[In_The_Wind]

48. I believe your dogs are "up" there too.

I believe that mine are playing with our cats.

[femmocrat]

49. That's a lovely image.

Mine are frolicking on a hill. And when I call them, they all come running down the hill, so happy to see me again.

[In_The_Wind]

52. I like that!

Byron and Lady Leigh are being stalked by Willamina ~ she who would not be ignored.

[Separation]

50. I don't have anything to lose by believing and being wrong.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. I'm eating a sub. All I had ended 5 years ago.

[In_The_Wind]

59. ~ ~ ~

I hear you

[In_The_Wind]

57. he cannot

[In_The_Wind]

60. but then

we might have to deal with him we could play nice with the newbie.

What sayeth ye . . . re young Taverna ~ ~ ~

[hobbit709]

66. When I die, the universe ends as far as I'm concerned.

[union_maid]

67. I'm keeping my options open

No idea what there might be in the universe. And that's a good thing, because I'll be spending the morning at the supermarket. I need to believe that there's a plane of existence that doesn't involve carting groceries around.

[In_The_Wind]

68. ponder this along your way today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018311851 because you are a wise one

namaste ~ union_maid

in the wind

[union_maid]

69. Thank you dear ITW

All kinds of love can bring pain. Will bring pain to someone, almost certainly. Partings are inevitable. The questions are only when and how. But I assume it's one of the main things we're here for. Enough, however, is sometimes seems like more than enough.

[whistler162]

70. Sorry but I will go along with Blaise on this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

At this moment I am waiting for a hard drive to finish imaging so it can be cleaned of virus's and waiting for a raid5 array to finish building.

[Glassunion]

71. I disagree.

Right now... I have all of my yesterdays. A sight, sound or smell can take me back to any of those yesterdays.

Right now... I have now of course.

Right now... I have tomorrow as well. I have yet to play it out, but she is there enticing me none the less. She may abandon me, she may be taken from me, but right now tomorrow is there.

One day there will be no tomorrow, but that will not be the end of me. I have left my mark, I continue to scribble all over the place. What I am may go away, but who I was will still live on. You should always color the world around you with rich and fantastic colors. Change the world and you will live forever.

You shouldn't try to change the world, it's too big.
You shouldn't try to change the nation, it's too big.
You shouldn't try to change the state, it's too big.
You shouldn't try to change the town, it's too big.
You shouldn't try to change the neighborhood, it's too big.
You should try to change yourself. Be the change you want to make. If your neighbors can see the good, perhaps they will change. If your town sees the change in your neighbors, perhaps they will change... On and on, until by accident you may actually change the world.

[pink-o]

72. Okay, gonna get serious, right here in the Lounge

I'm an agnostic, albeit I was not always so. But from when I did have a belief in the supernatural to now that I'm in my skeptical dotage, one thing has not changed: we must live life to its fullest. We must find what makes us content, interspersed with those thrilling moments of bliss that get us out of bed each morning, and we must follow it. We must gather to us those we love, who value us as we value them, and give them the best we have to offer.

Cuz y'know why? If this life is a gift from God, we owe it to him to live it fully. If there is no god, then it's all we got, and we owe it to ourselves to live it fully. Even if we're reincarnated and get to do it all again, we have to live a full life so we don't repeat lessons not learned.

Any way you slice it, the journey is more important than the destination.

[Festivito]

73. Wondering why someone would post something like that.

I doubt the person knows.

[Taverner]

75. Because I am sick of this war menality!

I want us to go to a peacetime economy - not the perpetual war our leaders have consigned us to...

[Festivito]

82. Oh, well, I was kind of enjoying the wonder.

As absurd as believing in a God seems to you; your belief there is no God is just as absurd to others.

And, if people believe in absurdities, they can commit atrocities.

IOW, it's not God that is the problem. It can be you, yourself. After stealing from Voltaire, my personal quote is: You cannot change the world unless you could at least change yourself. We each need be wary and not conflate bad ideas along with our best beliefs.

I'm not trying to be personal except inasmuch as I see you caught in a conundrum of your own making.

As you go through those last moments of life, your brain might very well present such things to you that you profess will not happen. Denying that has you just as susceptible to being beset by absurdity-atrocity wars as would insisting it true without ever having experienced it for ones self.

You're barking for the right reasons, but I think you're at the wrong tree.

[Frosty1]

165. I hear you and I agree 100 percent!

[Honeycombe8]

77. Well, you don't KNOW that. You believe that. There's a difference.

Just like when someone believes there's a heaven and hell (of some sort).

No one KNOWS until they die....and they ain't talkin'!

[Taverner]

78. I don't - but I am CONVINCED that there is NO GOD

[Honeycombe8]

80. Others are equally convinced there is a God or a supreme being of some sort.

Some believe in Buddah.

Who's to say, since we can't KNOW if any are true....until we die.

But whether it's true or not, it is helpful to some in the throes of grief to believe. And that is a good thing.

[Jamaal510]

161. +1

[HERVEPA]

101. Yup. One can make up any fairy tale they like. There are whole books of them.

[LiberalElite]

83. before answering this post -

watching Harlem Shake videos on YouTube

[Jasana]

87. I never expected all the false glory when I die so...

I put all my energy into this world. My main goal is to leave it a little better than I found it. If I can do that, then I have won.

For me the right now, it means helping my 88 year old grandmother live a decent life. (It ain't easy. She doesn't get much assistance because her husband had the nerve to die expensively and they made a naive decision about his pension.)

The rest is trying to help my blue collar fiends survive. It's not pretty out there for the working poor. It's not pretty for me. I used to be lower middle class then I became disabled and I've been falling down ever since.

[Cal33]

88. I believe that many become atheists as a reaction (whether consciously or not) to

some unpleasant experiences they have had with religionists -- oftentimes
with clergymen of that particular religion. Example: A friend of mine was
attending church one Sunday when he was 18 or 19. The preacher was
saying that those who did not accept Christ would be condemned to hell.
Someone asked, "What about those who have never even heard of Christ?"
The preacher said, it couldn't apply to those who have never heard of
Jesus. Another asked, "What about Gandhi? He knew about Christianity."
The preacher replied that Gandhi was in hell.

Well, my friend was a great admirer of Gandhi. He couldn't believe his ears.
He went up to the preacher after the service and spoke with him about
Gandhi. The preacher insisted that Gandhi was in hell. My friend became
an atheist on the spot, and has remained one ever since.

Jasana, just keep on being the way you are. To me you are one of those
spiritual people who are practicing as their conscience tells them to. And
each one of us is at some level of development. We do change with time
according to our ability as we experience and learn more. There are no rigid
doctrines to follow. We just do what we can. If more people did what you
are doing, the world would have been a far better place than it is now. Well,
it isn't. You seem to be accepting that too, while continuing to be the way
you are, Just keep it up.

[Jasana]

92. Thank you for your kind words Cal33

Your advice is golden.

[Taverner]

98. I went through a very long journey

Starting in a Calvinist home, with lots of ministers in my family. Went Calvinist->Evangelical->Liberal Christian->Deist->Agnostic->Weak Atheist->Strong Atheist

I am convinced by the data that there is no God, no afterlife, no explanation for phenomena other than naturalistic causes.

I do not see religion as inherently evil, and I don't see atheism as inherently good.

Atheism and religion are tools. Mine just happens to have scientific support.

[Cal33]

120. Science deals with the physical. God, by definition, is non-physical. You can't

compare the physical with the non-physical any more than you can compare
apples with oranges.

By the way, some physicists are beginning to toy with the idea that since
sub-atomic particles seem to have some properties ascribed to the
non-physical, maybe apples and oranges can be compared some time
in the future? Could sub-atomic particles be a bridge to future understanding
of what we can't grasp now?

Let me try to make it a bit clearer with another example: Many scientists
believe that space and time began in our universe with the Big Bang. Through
mathematical formulas they are able to trace TIME back to 0.000 many zeroes 1 part of a
second, but they couldn't reach the exact time of the Big Bang itself. At that time,
this whole universe of ours was roughly the size of an apple!

And SPACE itself is still expanding at roughly the speed of light in all directions.
Most of us already think of space as being made of nothing. We use the
common phrase "empty space." So, what is space expanding into? What's
on the other side of the space of our universe as we know it?

To people in our universe TIME also began with the Big Bang. What was there
before the Big Bang?

At this moment, all one can try to say is the nebulous "There was NO TIME and
NO SPACE." With our human minds, who can imagine what "no time" and "no
space" really mean? Our human bodies are part of the physical world, and so
are our brains. It's tough to try to understand what is of a dimension different
from what we know and are used to -- to say the least.

[HERVEPA]

102. Nope. Most atheists just realize the belief in a god or an afterlife makes no sense.

You have to be pretty weak-minded to decide to be an atheist because something bad happened to you.

[Cal33]

118. Or very young. He was still a teen-ager -- a freshman at college, I believe, and very

impressionable. But he stuck to his guns. He hasn't the slightest interest in
anything dealing with religion or spirituality since.

[Orrex]

124. You know that you're making an offensive and belittling statement, right?

I could as readily (and with at least equal justification) declare that many become theists simply because they were trained from childhood to believe without actual evidence. They may not stick with their initial faith, but once the groundwork is set for belief in the unverifiable, it's not hard to convince oneself that such beliefs are supported by evidence even when in fact they are not. That, I suspect, is how you've convinced yourself that anecdotal "near death experiences" prove existence beyond physical death.

More cruelly, one could assert that theists simply fear a universe that doesn't have some over-arching metaphysical "purpose" or "meaning," so they make up a concept of Truth or some magical guardian to mind the store.


I never tire of theists taking it upon themselves to educate atheists on the nature of atheism and to advise those atheists why they aren't theists.

[Arugula Latte]

150. My husband's family lost a child (his sibling)

They were told by their minister that their "faith was too little" and that's why the child had died.

They went from church-going, Sunday school teaching people to all atheist/agnostic and very disgusted by the whole gawd-n-jesus scam.

However, I grew up realizing that "God" was a myth people told themselves to feel better about things. I never could "believe" in a god, even when I tried my hardest due to peer pressure from churchy little friends.

[Cal33]

170. I have no quarrel with atheism at all. You seem to be simply following what feels right to you.

Nothing more than this should be asked of anyone.

[darkangel218]

93. BS.

When I die there will be bunch of demons there to greet me. As I will myself be a demoness in the afterlife.

[Evoman]

94. Yep, and who cares. I've got stage 4 cancer, and I don't want an afterlife.

Fuck it. When I really think about it, a complete absence of consciousness sounds like heaven. Eternal life might be cool the first hundred years or so, but I think I'd be done after a while. Hell, I've more than a couple of times wished I was just dead instead of putting up with pain and sickness.

[Cal33]

95. Am sorry to hear of your condition. I am open to most ideas about the hereafter. But, don't be

surprised if, when you're on the other side, you find yourself still conscious, when you know
that your physical body is dead. How come I am still aware, still conscious when I'm dead?

Eventually, it will occur to you that there is an afterlife, after all. Just be glad, think of
those you love. Think pleasant, loving thoughts. And then see what happens.

I've read quite a bit about those who've been clinically dead (from minutes to days) but have
somehow been resuscitated and are alive today. This is becoming quite common nowadays
because of the improved methods of resuscitation. If you're curious enough about the
experiences these people have had when they were clinically dead, you can try reading:

http://near-death.com
http://iands.com
http://nderf.org

These are some of the sites where opinions, scientific studies, all pros and cons can also be
read. I'm an old guy who probably hasn't got much time left either. I was afraid of death at
one time -- but no longer.

Good luck!

[Taverner]

97. Got any evidence other than antecdotal?

[Evoman]

99. Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I'm straight atheist, and no matter how long I'm in this cancer foxhole, I'm not switching back. If anything, the shit I've been through has convinced me more than ever that there is nothing after this. Life isn't that fair.

[Cal33]

106. I had a long-time neighbor whose mother passed away. A few days later while (I'll call her Mary)

was at home, her mother appeared to her in the late afternoon and said "I'm okay," and was gone.
I asked Mary if she saw her mother "as clearly as you see me now?" Yes. "And did you hear
her as clearly as you hear me now?" Yes, again. This happened during the daytime, too. It
wasn't at night in a dream.

Mary is the honest, straightforward type. She wasn't religious, either. In fact, she had been
a Catholic, was divorced, and had remarried.

A friend of mine died some 10 years ago. He appeared to his long-time-neighbor family
next door, and asked them to tell his wife that he "was okay." His wife had a heart condition,
and he didn't want to shock her by appearing to her directly. That was why he appeared to
his neighbors instead.

The same identical "I'm okay." Not much else. This friend and his wife were very religious.

I have joined a near-death experience forum on the Internet. You don't need to have had
a near-death experience in order to become a member. I have never met any of them
in person. But I have written them, of course, and also spoken over the phone to a few.

Like I said in a previous post, Taverner, if you're not willing to put in the effort to go into
this matter in depth, you're only wasting your time -- unless, of course, passing away time
is your purpose in bringing up this subject.

[Taverner]

112. These are both examples of antecdotal evidence

Our brains do play tricks on us

I don't mean to anger anyone, but I've always strived hard to know what's really going on. Having been raised in Calvinism, I had to wade through a lot of bullshit.

[Cal33]

123. Your traumatic experience probably was the slow type and in small doses, and it

probably lasted through most of your chlldhood years. It's possibly also difficult
for you to deal with ambivalence. You seem to need to know "for sure. And
you are looking for this certainty in science.

You must surely know by now that even though science has made great strides,
what science does know and can prove is only a very tiny fraction of what it does
not know, but can only guess at.

It's good to be able to feel comfortable in accepting as fact that there will always
be doubts and ambiguities in living our daily physical lives. Feeling uncomfortable
about this (whether we are conscious of it or not) only causes us unnecessary pain.
It's of no positive use to us at all.

I was raised in Catholicism and also had to wade through a lot of bs. I was
an agnostic for nearly 40 years. Then I began to learn not to throw away the baby
together with the bath-water.

[HERVEPA]

103. You're welcome to believe in woo.

perhaps the person who is sick and made his feelings clear would prefer not to hear your woo. Just possible.

[Evoman]

145. Eh, I don't care.

Don't buy it one bit, but it doesn't bug me.

[Taverner]

96. I'm so sorry

I wish you peace

[Evoman]

100. Thank's bud....I appreciate it.

I'm not upset at all by the news that I'm not gonna live for eternity, lol. I would have liked about 80 years or so just fine. Who knows...may still get it.

[hamsterjill]

104. Right now, I'm reading your post.

If you regret something that you've done, NOW is the time to change it. That could include changing your belief system, if that were a regret. I'm not directing that specifically to you, the OP, but rather to anyone to whom it might apply.

I don't agree with your belief system. But I believe very firmly that you have a right to believe as you do as long as you are willing to respect my right to believe as I do.

To me, THAT's what it's all about. Accepting one another, respecting one another, loving one another and helping one another. I feel no need to make others believe as I do. Belief is a personal journey; a personal decision.

[Arugula Latte]

105. I believe in neither god/s, heaven, hell, an afterlife nor ghosts ... but

I kinda like this sentiment:

[DerekG]

107. I'm an agnostic, uncomfortable with these absolutist statements

You're right that this is all that counts, but you might want to curb the certainty.

[a la izquierda]

117. My husband is too...

And he believes something exists after all this. Why? Because he's experienced too much to suggest that there is nothing.

I have complex beliefs myself.

[edbermac]

110. Yes, there will be.

Because it's always Christmas In Heaven.

[nomorenomore08]

115. What I do know, is people have all sorts of experiences that, while perhaps not "objectively" real

are quite real *to them*. I suspect that this partly accounts for the belief in an afterlife. Along with the (arguably understandable) psychological need to believe that deceased loved ones still exist somewhere, somehow.

I have my own still-developing theories involving brain chemistry, the subconscious, and "near death" experiences, but I don't feel confident enough to really take a stab at it here. Suffice to say that what people call an afterlife could simply be a (subjectively) eternal dream-state, which really only occurs within the brain's last moments of awareness.

[kentauros]

121. So what am I doing right now?

Wondering whether to waste my time reading a worthless thread. And you?

[Taverner]

126. I'm fucking my hand...

Oh wait, that was a pencil sharpener....ow

[Capt. Obvious]

125. That's just not true at all

For many there will be bugs. For others, scavengers as well.

[Taverner]

127. ....

[hollysmom]

130. I died and was resusitated.

I remember it pretty well, but afterwards is a fog for 3 days.


The dying part - had high blood pressure due to extreme stress at work. Went on vacation, did not have a blood pressure machine with me. Took my pills twice a day like the doctor ordered. Kept sleeping more and more on vacation, was hard to get up to go home. The next day, got up to go to work felt funny. Called the doctor to tell her I felt funny. She said if it was weird enough for me to call about it, that I should go to the nearest emergency room yadda yadda yadda,

To the point. They took me right in after they looked at me and hooked me up to a blood pressure machine. I was hooked up and wondering how long this would take when alarms went off and a crash cart came in the door - it was like in slow motion I was watching my blood pressure plummer for the initial 60 over 30 to 0. I looked at the crash cart and wondered why they were there and I would have to see what they wanted to do, but I was very tired, so I would just close my eyes for a minute and then would see what they were going to do. I woke up with my brother crying next to me, apparently they had to resuscitate me. then the alarms went off again - rinse, wash repeats to thinking I wanted to talk to my brother and would do it after my nap. I woke up 3 days later and was told they had to resuscitate me 3 times.


So no greeters, no being sent back, no white light, no acknowledgement in my mind I was dying.

I guess the lesson to this is if you want to die peacefully and quietly - over dose on blood pressure pills.

When I woke up, the doctor smacked me in the head and called me a goof for dying like that. But she was glad to see I was OK. And told me never to take a pill again without taking my blood pressure first!

[HappyMe]

131. Wondering why you dumped this in the Lounge.

[kentauros]

133. Or "Took a dump in the Lounge"

I'd expect to see this kind of thread in Religion or one of the atheist forums, not here.

[Taverner]

140. I am reality. Hear me poop.

[pintobean]

134. He wasn't thinking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018312157#post126

[Rex]

135. Says the guy with a huge transparency page.

Like anyone would believe a thing you say.

I'm agnostic, but your post makes me lean toward organized religion with it's huge amount of arrogance.

[Taverner]

138. Go ahead!

I'm sick of self-loathing secularists anyway

[Major Nikon]

136. So grandpa really can't see you masturbating?

That's a relief.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

137. And this concludes Taverner's Cheerful Thought of the Day. (c)

[Taverner]

139. What can I say? I'm just puppy dogs and fucking rainbows!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

141. Somebody needs to throw a Crocogator in a Hurricane into the mix.

If indeed there is no afterlife but one does witness a crocogator in the middle of a hurricane, then life is still very well worth it indeed.

[Taverner]

142. Can crocogators fly?

If so, what's the terminal velocity?

[graywarrior]

143. This needs to be explained to the walking dead WalMart shoppers because

there is always someone there to greet them.

[yellowcanine]

147. The neuroscientist claims he was brain dead but yet he remembers.....

It stands to reason that if he was brain dead he would remember nothing of the experience as memories can't form in a dead brain.

[LanternWaste]

149. I don't pretend to know one way or the other...

I don't pretend to know one way or the other.

"So what are you doing right now?"
Not pretending...

[liberal N proud]

151. Wishing I could take back that I opened this post

[LiberalFighter]

152. How will someone be waiting for me when I'm not going anywhere?

If there is anyone "there" they will be waiting a long time. Besides if there is anyone waiting "there" it will be awfully crowded. I don't like crowds!

[barbtries]

153. maybe, maybe not.

i expect to be reunited with my daughter and my parents and a whole bunch of loved ones who passed before me.
there is also the past and the future.
right now, i'm working. how about you?

barbtries, a spiritual humanist atheist. i really do believe in LOVE.

[Still Blue in PDX]

157. Oh, darn.

I've always found solace in the certainty that if there really is a heaven and hell I'll land with one or the other of my parents. And I'm not saying which one is going where.

[Jamaal510]

162. Until there is some type of device that can revitalize deceased people,

none of us will ever know for sure what happens after someone dies. This debate is going to drag on forever.

[eppur_se_muova]

168. Actually, I will be greeted by a surgeon -- I'm donating my organs. nt

[Taverner]

169. Wouldn't you love to come back for like 5 seconds

Just to sit up and say "Yeaaaahhhhhh What's up doc?"

[SpartanDem]

171. Says who?

No one knows what happens when we leave this world. You are right we should live to fullest because we don't know. But anyone who thinks they have all the answers is foolish IMO.

[datasuspect]

173. i'm about as "feet in the ground" as much as the next guy

and hold no truck with religion.

but i do make room for "mystery" in life. whatever that means: for me it is a pantheistic conception where i find great inspiration in nature, the diurnal cycle, and the love that binds all decent people together.

there are gods in everything. there is power in the mundane. the mere presence of the sun can send waves of ecstasy through me.

knowitallism has been the bane of my existence for more years than i can remember.

i have to keep focusing on the realization that i know that i do not know many, many things.

i still understand that absence of evidence of existence does not constitute evidence of existence.