DU pilots - need help identifying some old planes **DIALUP WARNING**

[csziggy]

I'm scanning a photo album from my Dad's family. The album starts in 1916 and I am up to 1939. There are two groups with airplanes but with no identifying information as to exactly when and where they were taken. My Dad and uncle could be among the boys in front of the plane.

The first picture of a plane was from a series taken at an airfield. Most of the shots were of this plane. There is at least one other plane but that photo is so bad I am not posting it - the photos are tiny, about 1.5 square. I'm scanning them at 1200 dpi to get them big enough to really look at.

The photos were taken between 1934 and 1938 (years from the photos before and after). There is a possibility this airplane was associated with the Chicago Exposition of 1934-35 - pictures on the same page of the album were of electrical arcs with the name "General Electric" visible. Here's the first photo:



The other pictures I'm posting here are of a crashed plane. Again, no information, but the photos were around 1938. The location is most likely Polk County, Florida, but it could be Upper Peninsula Michigan during a summer visit or just about anywhere. There is one shot on that page of the album that could not have been taken in Florida - a rocky outcrop that could not be Florida geology. Another shot shows what happened to the missing wing - it is in pieces hanging from the tree the plane is next to.







Any information on these planes would be great! Thanks in advance!

[hack89]

1. First one is a Martin B-10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_B-10

[csziggy]

4. Great! I thought it was a bomber, but couldn't figure out which one

Would this be the same plane from a different angle?



And is this also a bomber of some sort?



What are the things hanging down below the wings of each?

You can see why I didn't post these at first. I've got to see if I can get better scans of them.

[The Magistrate]

5. Dates Might Help With These, Sir

It looks pretty likely to be an A-17A, a Northrup designed attack plane able to do a true dive-bombing attack. It was in service with the U.S.A.A.C. in the mid-1930s. But there were a couple of similar items employed by the Navy about the same time, and Northrup and Douglas blur as companies about this time as well.

The perforated panels are dive brakes, put down when the machine was making a dive bombing attack. The trick of this form of attack was to dive slowly, while at a near vertical angle: it would not be possible to pull out from a dive to a level low enough for accuracy otherwise, and in a normal steep dive, speed would build up and buffeting of the machine would often be a feature. Seversal ideas for brakes were tried by various manufacturers, but the perforated brakes became the favored means in the U.S.

The 'Dauntless', the SBD of WWII, was a reasonably close relative of the A-17/17A.

[csziggy]

9. Best guess is between 1934 and 1938, sir, based on surrounding pictures

Some of the sections of the photo album have detailed information, some have little or none. The set of photos preceding are dated 1934, the set following, 1938, but that is no guarantee - some sets of pictures are not in date order.

These last two photos were in the same group as the first picture in the first message and seem to be at the same location. As I said, I suspect they were part of a display connected with the Chicago Exposition of 1933-34 (not 34-35 as I posted originally) since the other pictures on the same page may have been taken there.

While my father and his brother may have been in the photo with the B-10, I doubt it - they would have been 10 and 8, younger than the boys in that picture.

Your identification looks good - the prototype for the A-17 was delivered to Wright Field in '34 - which fits my time estimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_A-17#Development_and_design

Thank you!

[The Magistrate]

14. Happy To Help, Ma'am

Not often the old hobby is helpful....

[hack89]

10. I think you are correct

the diameter of the engine nacelle looks too small for an SBD now that I take a closer look.

[The Magistrate]

12. That Is The Tip, Sir

I am planning a build of an A-17 ( the fixed gear version ) with the 74 A.S. at Panama, so I have an eye tuned to the thing....

[csziggy]

16. Does this look like the same aircraft?

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2922

[The Magistrate]

17. That Is The Original, Fixed Landing Gear Version, Ma'am, The A-17

The pictures you put up look to me like the landing gear retracts, the A-17A.

Just about everything else was identical.

[csziggy]

19. Ahh - showing my ignorance of the fine points of aircraft

Thank you, again.

[The Magistrate]

20. You Picked Up Pretty Quick, Ma'am

I know more about this sort of thing than is decent, even for an old man.

[csziggy]

23. I trained to be a librarian but I was already good at research

Give me a starting point and I can dig up tons of facts. But in areas where I have no place to start, it's difficult.

I have my own areas of esoteric expertise, so I understand completely, sir.

[hack89]

7. Looks like a Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber

those are the dive brakes under the wings that allowed the aircraft to dive at extremely steep angles without going too fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_SBD

[csziggy]

11. I think it's too early to be a Dauntless, but maybe one of the prototypes

Even the Northrop BT is a year or two later than I was estimating for the date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_BT
The cowling around the front of the plane does not look at all similar to my pictures.

The Wiki for the Dauntless shows two of the prototypes and they do look very similar:

Comparison of the XBT-1 and XBT-2 (SBD).

Thanks!

[Tgmr55]

26. Dive bomber

Those are dive brakes.

[Xithras]

2. Top plane is a Martin B-10

One of the cooler early aircraft designs IMHO, and it was also the first metal-skinned bomber used by the U.S. military. They became outdated pretty quickly and never saw any real combat use.

No idea on the second one though. Nothing jumps out at me from the aircraft design.

[NV Whino]

3. That last one looks like it could be a Piper Cub

But it's sort of difficult to tell in that condition.

[sgsmith]

6. Not a Piper Cub

The door doesn't match up.

[img][/img]

[catnhatnh]

8. Second is possibly a Fairchild 24

Much info on wiki with both army and navy usage contemporaneous with your time frame...

[The Magistrate]

13. For The Crashed One, Ma'am

On a suggestion from a gentleman on a modeling site I frequent, I would bet money on this:



Aeronca Chief, a side by side two-seater, around in 1937/38.

[The Magistrate]

15. Apparently, Ma'am, NC22328, Which That Number Looks Like

Was registered as an Aeronaca 50F Chief.

The 50 refers to the horsepower of the motor.

[csziggy]

18. That certainly looks correct, sir!

Great find. It's amazing that circa 75 years later the registration number can be found! Any clues where in the country that plane was flown? Though where it was registered has nothing to do with where it ended up since those planes seem to have flown cross country.

A verification - from the Wiki article, "The Aeronca high-wing formula used a welded steel tube fuselage covered with fabric, wooden wings covered with plywood and fabric braced by V-struts to the rear undercarriage attachment point on the lower fuselage." The tubular steel braces can be seen in the photos!

Thank your friends on the modeling site. I really appreciate this!

[The Magistrate]

21. There May Be More To Be Found, Ma'am

A Google on the number does not turn anything up, but there are tabulations of crashes maintained by an air safety group, and the civil registrations are recorded, and I believe have been published. It may be possible to find the location of the crash. I have indeed posted up thanks, and I will contact the gentleman who traced the number. We are a friendly bunch of lunatics....

[csziggy]

22. This is why I love forums and the internet

There are people with so many special interests that are willing to share their knowledge. And the information often remains available for years so many can learn from it.

I could have searched for years and never found anything about these aircraft. Here we are, a few hours after I posted the pictures with some definitive information about all three!

[byronius]

24. Awesome thread.

[micraphone]

27. I concur

One of the reasons I love this place called DU!

[Arctic Dave]

25. The second one looks like a Fairchild 24

Hard to tell from the crash.

[csziggy]

28. Look at message #15

It seems that if the number was read correctly, the crashed plane was registered to a Aeronaca 50F Chief.

[Arctic Dave]

29. Ohhhh, he is correct.

Right on.