Ladies, some thoughts on this conversation. Gentlemen, too, if you care to wade in.

[Flaxbee]

Please, tell me how you would react to this, were you the "Wife" wearing a slightly-above-knee-length dark denim pencil skirt, a pink top, and pink espadrille wedges. Husband and Wife to remain anonymous; I am trying to understand both sides.

*********

Husband: Wow, you wear that skirt a lot. It's frumpy.

Wife: No, it's not. It's cute.

H: No, everyone knows they're frumpy.

W: Well, tell me what you like.

H: You know what I like, you don't want to wear what I like, I've told you before and you don't do it.

W: Please, tell me again. The last time I saw something you liked it was clubwear, which just isn't what I would feel comfortable wearing. But tell me what you like and I'll try; let's see if there's something we can agree on.

H: You can't really be that stupid.

W: What do you mean?

H: You just don't know how to dress attractively.


**************
H then refused to tell W what he likes, and stated he will never ever talk to her about clothes again. None of this conversation was joking or banter. I was in the backseat of the car, trying to disappear as this conversation took place. We've all been friends since forever, which is why I heard all of this w/o them thinking twice about my presence.

Is H a jerk? W oversensitive? Apparently this has been an ongoing source of conflict and I don't know all the back story. But W was very upset. H claims he can't understand why W was upset and that upsetting W wasn't intentional (but to me, perhaps because I'm female, it seems like his conversation was a bit... harsh).

What say you?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I'd say he sounds like a jerk. "you can't be that stupid."??? Really?

I would not be married to anyone who talked to me like that.

Period.

[Flaxbee]

2. yeah, that's what made me cringe.

[raccoon]

71. I strongly second that emotion! nt

[pinboy3niner]

3. And she probably doesn't say a word about the crap he wears

There seem to be some control issues here...

[Flaxbee]

4. he's a pretty innocuous dresser ...

khakis, dress shirt, etc.

But he lets his hair get shaggy, doesn't always shave, has a few extra pounds... certainly none of these are crimes, but he's not really in any position to criticize her a whole lot, either. I can understand wanting to be attractive to your spouse, but how the hell can you do that if the spouse won't tell you what s/he likes (beyond spandex miniskirts or whatever the male equivalent is)?

[mythology]

40. Even if he was utterly immaculate

he's still being an ass. It's her body and her choice in what to wear given that she's a grown woman.

And saying that your wife or husband is stupid, well that's just never acceptable.

[lastlib]

54. That pretty well sums it up!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. ugh.

painful.

sounds circular though. not the first round.

[Flaxbee]

6. yup.

As I said, I got the feeling this was a sore point. With other unresolved issues masquerading as clothes/appearance issues.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. oh yeah. if you guys have been long time friends, surely you have seen signs before now?

how long have they been married?

[Flaxbee]

13. a little over 10 years.

Yes - other control issues.

She later said to me she thought it would be interesting to see what happened if they could just remove the clothing issue from their conversation for a while. If the true issue comes to the surface, or if he really just did have a bug up his butt about her clothes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. Does she work? Any children?

I know a lot of women that dress their husbands ... literally lay out their clothes for them every morning ...

This would take away the clothes distraction and perhaps the real issue would come into focus.

But, I see further down that there is no money for clothes ...

Surely, he does Not expect her to dress that way All The Time.

They need to have real conversation about Something ... who knows what that is.

[Flaxbee]

38. No kids.

And yes, she works, but she's self-employed so she doesn't work out of the home - can do what she does from home. Which is, I suspect, one of the reasons she doesn't have the fancy-schmancy wardrobe he seems to want - she has no real need for it in her lifestyle. She has some pretty things (I think; not sure what he thinks) but it's not like she has to wear a dress and heels to work ...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

60. well, so much conversation is subtly conveyed by tone and inflection that I hate to judge

from this one incident.

I know at work when we are cutting up and carrying on if someone says something really Silly ...

someone may say: "You -so- Stupid" ... and it really is not meant that way.

It is not so much What is said as How it is said.

[winter is coming]

43. Wow. The only man I know who lets his wife lay out his clothes is severely color-blind. n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. I know women that buy their husband's clothes, as in they do shopping, and husband pays the cc bill

every month.

[winter is coming]

63. I sometimes buy my husband's clothes, but he wears the same type of things over and over,

so it's like, "Could you get me a new pair of Dockers while you're out?" If he wants something unlike what he's already got, he has to go out foraging.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. and that works for you two and that is fine. I don't really think Clothes are the issue in the above

conversation. But, honestly who am I to say about a whole marriage with this one snippet of dialogue ...

Why he would want her to dress sexy while out with a friend of the family, I have no idea.

Not even sure that is what he is getting at here.

but, He did start the conversation, for whatever reason, in front of Flaxbee.

meh.

oddness.

[winter is coming]

65. I've known what guy who did that to his wife.

They've been divorced for a long time now, thank dog. For that guy, at least, it was an excuse for running down his wife. Not enough context here to see if the motivation is similar in this case, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

66. well, really - nothing much suprises me any more. Peace.

[siligut]

76. I buy my husband's clothes and I pay for them too

Because if I didn't, OMG, he doesn't CARE what he wears, series

[Chan790]

7. He feels she doesn't listen to him. She feels that he's not communicative about his needs.

Beyond that, I suspect I know the nature of the issue.

He gets a personal satisfaction from other people looking at his wife as an object of desire...she's not comfortable being on display or with the fact that he clearly wants her to dress sexy at all times. It's a proxy-exhibitionism fight; they've clearly had it before. He's also verbally abusive. She's playing coy because she doesn't want to dress that way. (I can assure you she knows what he wants her to wear.)

The entire last paragraph is made up of them lying to you and each other. He knows damned well he's upsetting her and doing it intentionally. She's playing up victimhood seeking an ally to tell him he's wrong and is likely not as upset as she lets on. It's a dramatic act being put on for your benefit as audience, a power play.

(What I want to know is where you met my parents.)

[Flaxbee]

16. lol

are your parents still married?

I think she just doesn't want to walk around dressed like Marilyn Monroe singing to JFK all the time because she doesn't have that kind of lifestyle. She lives in the country. And right now, they don't have an extra cent for anything, let alone for her to buy new clothes, so she works with what she's had for a while. She's actually quite pretty, and perhaps you're right that he wants her to look sexy so it reflects on him (he's quite a bit older than she is, too).

I don't want to be in the middle! But I was, and now it's on my mind.

You think he was doing it intentionally? I thought he might be trying to pick a fight... but like I said, I was trying to disappear and quietly hum to myself.

[Chan790]

28. Oh yes.

I honestly think in my parents case they enjoy the bickering because they know it drives us insane. He picks because she forgets everything including really obvious things. She picks because he's a diabetic under the mistaken impression Twinkies are a food group. He picks because she jacks the heat up to 100'F then complains she's too warm. She picks because he dresses he chose the garments with his eyes closed. He picks because she thinks blue jeans and a black tee shirt are appropriate funeral attire if you didn't like the dead relative to begin with. They bicker over whose car to take to go 1 mile to the center of town; it takes longer to decide what car than to drive to town.

[MiddleFingerMom]

33. "(What I want to know is where you met my parents.)"

.
.
.

.
.
.
If the rest of the thread weren't so somber, that would be DUzy-worthy!!!
.
.
.

[HappyMe]

57. I think you are bang on with this.

Damn, you are good.

You should consider a "Dear Chan" type column.

[OneGrassRoot]

67. I definitely cast a vote for H = jerk. n/t

[alarimer]

8. I would have said "You don't tell me how to dress and I don't tell you how to dress."

And "Call me stupid one more time, and I am out of here."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. That's exactly what I would say too. Yuck.

[Avalux]

9. The skirt isn't the issue. Major power struggle going on there.

I'd say there's an underlying issue neither one of them are willing to discuss, so they pick on each other over something insignificant.

[Flaxbee]

17. Sigh.

I think there's long-term unhappiness. They don't do this all the time (or I'd not hang out with them) and I know there is also love, but definitely unresolved issues.

[Kali]

11. husband is an asshole

wife shouldn't play along

[Paulie]

19. Bingo!

Totally agree.

[Flaxbee]

20. I suspect that sometimes she can't help herself.

I don't know how often this happens, but if he makes comments like that with any frequency, it might not be that easy to hold her tongue. If it is a proxy war for something else...

[handmade34]

14. both immature

H baited W by initial disrespectful comment... W bought into it. W could have diffused the negative interaction by refusing to engage or merely acknowledging H's statement w/o comment. Someone in that couple needs to grow up.

a dysfunctional relationship that I would never be part of...

[Flaxbee]

21. I think that's the problem

W doesn't want to be a parent, she wants a partner. But if partner is being a jerk ... it might be hard not to rise to the bait every once in a while.

[Paulie]

29. Why does W have to diffuse anything

Out in public H being a jerk is not her fault so why is it up to her?

I say something inconsiderate while trying to be funny my spouse is happy to retort fuck off. And I take it as proper constructive criticism.

[handmade34]

35. she doesn't HAVE TO...

I just said she could, so as to stop what appears to be a destructive pattern in their communication... if there are problems, it takes one or both to change behavior in order to break the patterns... This couple has problems

people being different have varying levels of sensitivity... I respect that.

Me? I would NEVER tolerate my partner telling me I was stupid or to fuck off (even off handedly) or to be disrespectful of me in any way... I understand that others communicate differently though

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. H is immature. Why blame W who is clearly the victim?

W should not have engaged H.


Ignore him.

Best way to diffuse his BS power trip.


He is a bully.

[BainsBane]

18. He sounds like a total jerk

and verbally abusive.

[Flaxbee]

23. the "stupid" comment made me catch my breath

and if it had been banter, said with a different edge, it would have felt different.

But it wasn't said jokingly. And it felt like bad juju in the car.

[BainsBane]

24. I agree with others that there is more going on here

If he speaks to her like that in front of others, imagine how he is in private.

[one_voice]

22. The stupid comment; very hurtful...

The whole thing was hurtful. I don't know if I'd stay with someone like that. Being his wife aside, she's another person that deserves to be treated with some decency and respect, especially in front of other people.

Seems there's more going on, the clothing arugment is just a symptom. IMO.

I wish them the best, whatever that might be.

[rug]

25. What was he wearing?

[madinmaryland]

26. WWSD...

What would Sonia do?

Little Sonia (Idget) is catching up to Sonia in size. We actually found a little toy that Sonia loves. It only took eight years!

[nolabear]

27. I think they could use some counseling to help them talk to one another.

On the surface he sounds like a jerk but it also sounds like a lot has gone on between them already. They have an actual disagreement on clothes but the dynamic is very dominant/submissive in tone. (Not in the sexual sense) That doesn't mean it doesn't work for them. Couples can stay in this dynamic for years, triangulating in people like you to relieve tension but never addressing what's being satisfied by staying that way. And they might not know themselves.

How would I react? I'd either get used to it or stay out of the car. If they want to deal with it they'll deal.

[pipi_k]

30. He sounds

like a real fuckwad, if you ask me.

Although I guess if I were the wife, I would...just once (or maybe more than that just to make a point) dress in something blatantly revealing that would be sure to invite male attention.

See how he likes THAT.

OK, so I see a few posts down from your OP that the H isn't exactly a Greek God himself. Typical assholishness. Where the hell do people who aren't movie star material come off criticizing the appearance of their spouses?

But anyway, yeah.

I'd give him something to think about. Hey, buddy...you don't like my "frumpy" clothes? Deal with THIS.

[rrneck]

31. H is being a manipulative jerk.

If he doesn't like the way she dresses he could voice a reasonable opinion, but finding fault and defending it with passive aggressive bullshit is wrong.

[JoeyT]

32. H is a jerk.

A controlling jerk at that. If she starts wearing what he claims to like, ten bucks says he'll start sniping at her for dressing slutty.

FWIW I'm male and think it was a little more than harsh.

[a la izquierda]

34. Oh mercy.

I dated a guy like this. Note the -ed. My husband would never, ever tell me what to war unless I looked like a prostitute (which would be very unlike me).

How awkward that must've been for you and the wife.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

36. Happily remind him that if he does not like it...

He can go look for what he likes. Then start eying other men in the area.

The key to my relationship with my SO is that we both know we WANT each other, we do NOT NEED each other.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

37. frumpy like this?

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[distantearlywarning]

39. Obviously long-term poor communication between them

Beyond that, the husband in this partnership is verbally abusive. I only put up with someone talking to me like that once in my life, and it was the worst decision I ever made. Never again. If my husband ever called me stupid even once there would be a major problem (and vice-versa; of course I don't speak to him that way either).

[TreasonousBastard]

41. I don't know these people and, unlike others, can't judge them, but...

I have observed that many married couples have managed to accept a "script" that allows them to quibble about some little thing to avoid a real blowup about a real problem.

For whatever reasons, and there could be a lot of them, this is how they choose to deal with whatever is really going on, or maybe they just like to fight over stupid stuff... If nobody's getting hurt (as if you'd know) it's just embarrassing watching it.

Been there myself observing these kinds of scenes, and tend to look for the exit. I always seem to feel worse about it than the participants do.

[pipi_k]

45. Absolutely!

If nobody's getting hurt (as if you'd know) it's just embarrassing watching it.

Been there myself observing these kinds of scenes, and tend to look for the exit. I always seem to feel worse about it than the participants do.

It's one thing for people to have their issues at home, but quite another for them to inflict them on innocent bystanders.

[TreasonousBastard]

49. Every time I've seen it, it seems like...

they've been living these roles so long it's just natural for them, no matter who's there.

But, is that really worse than them putting on a false front when going out?

And how is "friendship" defined when confronted by the reality of their marriage? Should I care about what's happening?
I'm pretty sure I shouldn't get involved, but just where do I fit in this if we're friends?

[pipi_k]

52. I'm not sure

I would get involved in their stuff, although I do think you're perfectly justified in withdrawing a bit if it makes you feel uncomfortable, and then if they want to know why, just tell them you feel uncomfortable.

As far as people putting on a false front, we all have public and private selves.

I don't see it as putting on a false front. I see it as being respectful of the people they're with. Just like people who are extremely affectionate with each other in private should probably control themselves when they're out in public or with others.

[In_The_Wind]

42. H is a control freak. Seems to enjoy turning W into a submissive underling.

I think H is a jerk.

[HappyMe]

58. The only one that can turn the W into

a submissive underling is the W.

[In_The_Wind]

59. W seems to be allowing it.

[winter is coming]

44. H needs to figure out why he does this shit; W needs to figure out why she lets him. n/t

[Raven]

46. Hit the road, Jack! Any man who

called me stupid, either in private or, worse, in front of others, would get his walking papers. I've lived long enough to know when the flags are down on the field.

[datasuspect]

47. i generally stay out of husband/wife communications

in fact, i generally don't interact with marrieds or children much.

each couple has unique communication protocols that might unnerve an outsider.

i knew one couple who had pet names for each other: bastard and bitch.

so, there's no telling.

[TreasonousBastard]

48. Fits in with what I said above...

but I am constantly fascinated by how many will jump in so sure they know exactly what the problem is.

And how to solve it.

[datasuspect]

51. unfortunately there is no shortage of stupidity

in our world.

[NV Whino]

50. H is displaying typical passive aggressive behavior

W wants to talk. H refuses to discuss thereby maintaining control of the situation. And, in his eyes, is the "winner." Quotes because there can truly be no winner in a situation like this.

[lastlib]

53. From a male: He's a major jerk.

The correct response to whatever she's wearing is, "My dear, you look lovely!"

[hamsterjill]

55. Wife should dress how she wants and forget about asking Hubby what he likes.

Perhaps I've been single too long to understand this, but I would not tolerate anyone dictating to me how I could dress. I don't dress to please anyone but myself.

And if this occurred in front of you (i.e., not in private) - that makes it all the more distressing. Hubby is a jerk and wife is too accommodating IMHO.

[Jeff R]

62. Guys point of view:

He seems controlling, to start with.
He also does not give his recommendations, therefore how can an attempt at compromise even be started.
I would agree with harsh, almost as an understatement.
If the roles were reversed I believe he would be upset also. Unless he is a non feeling person.

[PasadenaTrudy]

68. You lost me at "Ladies"... n/t

[LWolf]

69. A jerk.

A "bit harsh?" How about she wears what she likes, and is comfortable in, and fuck him if he doesn't find it "attractive?"

[In_The_Wind]

75. +1

[Ilsa]

70. If my husband said he wanted me to wear something more attractive

after that conversation, I'd go buy a wardrobe of slutty clothes and wear them everywhere except with him.

Nobody calls Ilsa "stupid" without regrets.

[Dash87]

72. Husband is a raging domineering asshole.

How the heck is it his business what she wears? Weird.

[patricia92243]

73. Did she wear sexy clothes before they married? The husband says he has told her what he likes - so

her saying she doesn't know what he likes is an untruth.

He should never call her stupid.

She should be honest and say she is going to wear what she wants to wear - so he might as well not bring up the subject again.

Lot of game playing going on here.

[Xithras]

74. H lost any sympathy the moment he called her stupid.

Husbands and wives certainly have the right to comment on each others clothing and fashion, and both are allowed to have differing opinions on each others tastes and styles, but the moment the discussion becomes demeaning or controlling it crosses a line. He not only suggested that she was stupid, but went on to suggest that her knowledge of fashion was inferior to his own.

This guy blew over that line like it wasn't even there. My wife and I have been together for 20 years, and I've commented on (and occasionally criticized) her clothing many times during our relationship. I'd never consider going anywhere CLOSE to what he did.

"Honey, that skirt is looking a bit dated and kinda frumpy. You're way too sexy to be wearing something like that!"

[raccoon]

77. I agree with the general consensus that the husband is an abusive butthead. nt