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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:51 AM

How cow! I nearly did it AGAIN! Jumped into a hot-mess medical discussion in GD!

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by rrneck (a host of the The DU Lounge forum).

Whew! Dodged a bullet there. I should know better!

The howling hyenas are at it again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024183692

I was going to point out that naturopathic medicine is a science. It's evidence-based medicine, just like clinical medicine. Naturopathic medicine is things like nutrition, exercise, massage, natural, non-pharmaceutical remedies, etc. All of which I have a great deal of respect for.

What they seem to be referring to is homeopathic medicine, which isn't science; it's things like aromatherapy, magnets, candles, scented oils, etc.

But I finally got smart. I'm staying away from their brainless shit-spewing. Life is too short...

38 replies, 4765 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply How cow! I nearly did it AGAIN! Jumped into a hot-mess medical discussion in GD! (Original post)
Aristus Dec 2013 OP
HappyMe Dec 2013 #1
Aristus Dec 2013 #3
HappyMe Dec 2013 #4
Aristus Dec 2013 #6
grasswire Dec 2013 #36
Chan790 Dec 2013 #16
riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #21
Chan790 Dec 2013 #29
pipi_k Dec 2013 #27
magical thyme Dec 2013 #2
IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #12
riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #20
lunasun Dec 2013 #33
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #5
Aristus Dec 2013 #7
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #8
Aristus Dec 2013 #9
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #10
Aristus Dec 2013 #11
loli phabay Dec 2013 #23
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #24
Kurska Dec 2013 #32
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #34
IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #13
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2013 #14
HappyMe Dec 2013 #15
Kali Dec 2013 #17
ConcernedCanuk Dec 2013 #25
In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #26
Kali Dec 2013 #35
LiberalEsto Dec 2013 #18
Rambis Dec 2013 #19
loli phabay Dec 2013 #22
SidDithers Dec 2013 #28
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #30
riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #31
Liberal Veteran Dec 2013 #37
rrneck Dec 2013 #38

Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:04 AM

1. I stayed the hell out of that thread.

After the antibiotic melee...


Years ago I had a GP that once my latest sinus infection from hell was cleared up, prescribed a couple of herbs that kept them straightened out.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:11 AM

3. Yeah, that was fun...

...NOT!

I actually thought I could explain Post Hoc, Ergo, Propter Hoc to people who probably weren't able to tie their shoes without extensive coaching.

The attitude was: "I had a virus, and my doctor prescribed antibiotics, then my virus went away. So that means the antibiotics cured it!"

"After it, therefor because of it" doesn't necessarily apply in science. And it never does when it come to the notion that antibiotics can cure a virus.

But, boy did I catch hell for trying to shine a light in the darkness of their medical ignorance...

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Response to Aristus (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:22 AM

4. I don't get why people don't respect

your opinion. I mean really, why take a medical professional's word for it.

With all the info that's available, why don't people understand that viruses just have to run their course.

I was particularly amused by a couple that said that people should just diagnose themselves and order meds. Good way to keep the population under control, I suppose.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:24 AM

6. A lot of it may have to do with simply getting a rise out of people.

I suspect they know exactly what they're doing, and are just doing it to be provocative blockheads.

One more reason not to jump into that lake of raw sewage...

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:26 PM

36. There you go again. nt

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Response to Aristus (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:49 PM

16. Keep in mind...

 

these also tend to be the same people that ignore their family doctor to take the opinions of charlatans like Andrew Wakefield, Stanislaw Burzynski, Andrew Weil, Wayne Dyer and Joseph Mercola.

I mean why believe the word of the medical professional examining you over the word of a snake-oil salesman giving you medical advice having never examined you, looked at your chart or even met you?

People like that make no sense to me.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:50 PM

21. The thread in GD isn't about that though. Its about naturopaths

 

Who do examine you, read your chart etc

Fair disclosure however I've never been to a naturopath myself but I have been many times with my 93 year old grandmother who only went to a naturopath her whole life

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:45 PM

29. Oh, I was referring to Aristus talking about people that want to think antibiotics treat viruses. nt

 

I have no issue with naturopathy as long as it's backed up by science.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:31 PM

27. Waddaya mean...

it doesn't work???

Every week I sprinkle special herbs around and say some secret words to keep polar bears and tigers away from my yard.

In nearly 18 years, I've never seen one polar bear or tiger in my yard!

It absolutely does work!!!


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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:11 AM

2. I venture in briefly to provide my veterinary anecdote

 

and quietly left. I doubt the "anti-wooers" will touch my post, since several state veterinary universities offer "woo" training to veterinary students. I'm too lazy to walk to the kitchen to look up which university offers which disciplines.

Plus Massachusetts permits animal chiropractic by licensed veterinarians only (and I had a licensed equine vet/chiropracter down there and have a licensed canine vet/chiropracter/accupuncturist/herbalist up here in Maine, lol).

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:08 PM

12. Want to know something fun?

 

When doing the research for the micronutrient deficiency stuff for Preemie Growth Project, I actually found more stuff in the veterinary literature than the human one.

True story - veterinary literature explained why moms who were born premature ("maternal deficiency" were not able to pass stuff on to their offspring because (as the veterinary textbooks explained) "nutritional deficiency during pregnancy impacted two generations down" in vet world.

But humans being members of the family mammalia, and thus being impacted the same way as horses, cows, pigs, puppies and kittens?

Pseudo-Scientific Woo Woo!

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:47 PM

20. I did too. Animals can't fake whether a treatment is working or not

 

There's no placebo effect. There's either a result or not. After 25 years in the sport horse biz I know they work - chiropractic, acupuncture, massage therapy - all of it. And pretty much every vet i know uses and prescribes homeopathic remedies (Evitex aka chaste berry tea for C ushings,, Red Cell, liniments etc)

The ferocity of the responses is amazing though.

I'm not sure how I ever missed one of these threads before.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:35 PM

33. I saw that anecdote on the other tread -Yes walk in to most any vet

Some people's insurances -BCBS etc . often pay for alternative medicine and visits depending on the plan type too I was going to add but decided nope

I hope they never take an aspirin
The active ingredient of Aspirin was first discovered from the bark of the willow tree in 1763
or maybe it is OK if it says Bayer on it

You can trust Bayer but not any unmarketed willow bark could be the reasoning ? who knows

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:22 AM

5. Well, it's a change

from porn.








Who wants to jump in that "hot-mess" again?

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:25 AM

7. Hey! This is MY thread!

At least post a pic that I might like!...



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Response to Aristus (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:35 AM

8. I might have to send you a PM with that.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:40 AM

9. Fair enough...

Whenever you're ready...


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Response to Aristus (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:49 AM

10. ... incoming ~>

Check your Inbox!

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:58 AM

11. She has such a lovely......

...smile!...

(She does, though, actually...)

Lovely, thank you...

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 02:14 PM

23. lol, now that is my expertise.

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 02:24 PM

24. It's a distraction from playing outside in the traffic.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:33 PM

32. Congratulations, someone reported you for this.

"At the risk of having a jury go 6 to zero against me, I would like to know why this "woman" is constantly posting exploitative, titillating, or otherwise sexist images of women on DU? If men posted this crap as often as she does they would be banned or at least excoriated. Some kind of DU reverse double standard?"

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:30 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm not sure...ummm. What was the question?
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: yawn
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: You miss the picture of the man upthread?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: What the heck? A look she is doing it so why can't we do it request, with a smattering of "oh woe is me I know you disagree"? I AM NOT MOMMY OR DADDY! Stop pestering me and solve your own problems.

I was juror 3

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Response to Kurska (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:45 PM

34. Well, there is one DUer who cannot alert for 24 hours.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:09 PM

13. I am not so smart.

 

I jumped in with a whiny post about dealing with getting stuff investigated.

I will probably be beaten up about it.

Sigh.



And GRRRR!!!

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:16 PM

14. Don't be dissing homeopathy in GD - you'll stir up the woo crowd.

Of course it's pure nonsense, but don't start talking about Avogadro's Number, it just gets them confused and even more angry. I got into one of those shitstorms once, too - you try to explain that it's mathematically impossible for any molecules of the substance in question to be present in the expensive water they just bought, and they get all snarly.

Best to leave them alone to play with the anti-vaxxers.

I do like aromatherapy, though. It smells good. And magnets are great for sticking things to your fridge.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:28 PM

15. I have found the magnet cure excellent

for the dreaded Bare Fridge Syndrome.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:13 PM

17. you need to make this funnier, because it is pretty much just whining about DU

Lounge SoP

Our social forum. Relax with your friends and talk about off-topic stuff. The Lounge is supposed to be a friendly, welcoming place for everyone. No cliquish behavior. No drama. No political arguments. No whining about DU.

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Response to Kali (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 02:30 PM

25. Relax Kali - this IS the Lounge after all . . .

 

.
.
.

If anything the OP is complaining about GD -

Most of us knows ya gotta have thick skin in there -

Skinner described it as "throwing poo in GD"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594361

anyhoo, some of us like light "whining" if'n ya want to call it that.

I just see a discussion here - ITW's contributions are OFF-TOPIC if ya wanna go there ,

but I don't think anyone objects to them

certainly not me.



chill

CC

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Response to ConcernedCanuk (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:19 PM

26. Ha!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
Do you see that blue tarp? If I want to complain it isn't going to be about GD.


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Response to ConcernedCanuk (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:45 PM

35. no problem with a little joking around and general mocking of GD

but this was pretty much straight complaining, name-calling, and linking to the specific thread in question. it is whining about DU and the Lounge SoP specifically mentions no whining about DU.

most of these do get locked or self-deleted.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:40 PM

18. Didn't you read the warning?

 

Warning: Side effects of GD include severe headache, neck pain, buttalgia, dizziness, helpless rage, homicidal fantasies, bad breath, severe itching, purple face discoloration, hallucinations and extreme flatulence.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:42 PM

19. Why?

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 02:12 PM

22. i have discovered that its best to stay out of threads where you have expertise, as the google exper

 

experts will take you to task. i just shake my head and let them get on with it now, much safer and less bother in the end.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:35 PM

28. You canít have naturopathy without homeopathy

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/28/you-cant-have-naturopathy-without-homeop/

Sometimes a comment in the comment thread after one of my posts ends up turning into the inspiration for another post. This is especially likely to happen if I respond to that comment and end up writing a comment of myself that seems way too good to waste, forever buried in the comments where, as soon as the commenting on the post dies down, it remains, unread again. So it was after my post on the ďintegrationĒ of quackery into academic medical centers. In that post, I applied some of my inimitable not-so-Respectful Insolence to a deal between Georgetown University, what should be a bastion of academia emphasizing science-based medicine, and Bastyr University, probably the most famous school of naturopathy in the United States. A commenter objected to my lumping naturopathy in with quackery like homeopathy and reiki.

Quoth Kelly:

Bastyr has a good reputation. Do they embrace woo there? Sure, but they also donít force it on anyone, and they embrace the scientific method in their research and teaching.

Lumping in naturopathy along with homeopathy, reiki, and so forth, just makes you look ignorant in the end. And thatís a shame, especially since so much of medicine is moving forward to acknowledge that reductionism in medicine (and pharma, thanksomuch) is a bad thing.

Leaving aside that this quote is self-contradictory (the part about admitting that Bastyr embraces woo but embraces the scientific method in research and teaching), itís also plain wrong. It demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of what naturopathy is. In fact, there is no woo that Iíve yet been able to find that naturopathy doesnít embrace. As an example, I thought Iíd take a look at homeopathy and how naturopathy not only embraces it, but requires it. Letís start by looking at Bastyr University itself. Here is what the Bastyr University website says about homeopathy. First, it describes homeopathy as ďnaturalĒ and ďnontoxicĒ (the latter of which is hard to argue with, given that itís nothing more than water). Moreover, Bastyr even offers homeopathy services in its clinics.

More pertinent to the question of whether naturopathy embraces homeopathy is this answer to a question in Bastyrís FAQ about homeopathy:

Q. Do all naturopathic physicians use homeopathy?

A. All naturopathic physicians are trained in the use of homeopathy, but not every naturopathic physician will use it as part of their treatment.


Letís repeat that: All naturopathic physicians are trained in the use of homeopathy. All of them.


Woo and The Lounge. A match made in heaven.

Sid

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:11 PM

30. Definition of Naturopathic Medicine, from the American Association of Naturopathic Doctors:

 

http://naturopathic.org/content.asp?pl=16&sl=59&contentid=59

The Healing Power of Nature (Vis Medicatrix Naturae): Naturopathic medicine recognizes an inherent self-healing process in people that is ordered and intelligent. Naturopathic physicians act to identify and remove obstacles to healing and recovery, and to facilitate and augment this inherent self-healing process.


Acknowledge, respect, and work with individualsí self-healing process.


Treat the Whole Person: Naturopathic physicians treat each patient by taking into account individual physical, mental, emotional, genetic, environmental, social, and other factors. Since total health also includes spiritual health, naturopathic physicians encourage individuals to pursue their personal spiritual development.
bold mine

Naturopathic Practice
Naturopathic practice includes the following diagnostic and therapeutic modalities: clinical and laboratory diagnostic testing, nutritional medicine, botanical medicine, naturopathic physical medicine (including naturopathic manipulative therapy), public health measures, hygiene, counseling, minor surgery, homeopathy, acupuncture, prescription medication, intravenous and injection therapy, and naturopathic obstetrics (natural childbirth).
bold mine

Based in science? Homeopathy and Acupuncture? Really? It all sounds like it's based in woo to me.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:23 PM

31. Run Aristus! Run! They've followed you into the lounge!! Run!!

 



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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:27 PM

37. Those folks probably are choleric from an excess of yellow bile.

Too much meat in the diet will get the humors out of whack. Roasted chicory root and cucumber will soothe them.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:42 PM

38. Locking.

This lounge looks kinda uncomfortable.

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