How do I bring topic up to wife without sounding sexist?

[RandySF]

Last edited Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

During my period of unemployment, I was Mr. Mom. In between job interviews I took the kid to school and picked him up, Cleaned and straightened up the house, washed the dishes, did the laundry, pretty much everything. I didn't mind because. Now, it seems to be my turn to be working and hers to be unemployed. And on the those days when she's home all days, the place looks like a disaster. Like everyone else, I'm working harder for less than the job I had before, so I barely have the energy to help the kid with homework, much less all the chores I see not being done. I feel too timid to bring it up because A) I give her all the credit for working while I was unemployed and B) I don't want to sound sexist. But at the same time, I want to be abler to work at a desk that is not cluttered with food and coffee mugs. How would you handle this?

[DebJ]

1. You could start out by just focusing on that one area, the desk,

and say that you would very much appreciate having a clean space to work,
that's why you leave it clean for her.

[IrishAyes]

10. I doubt she'll be swayed by that approach. If she cared about her husband, she wouldn't

be sitting on her ass while he works.

[DebJ]

20. I disagree that this is the only reason.

As other posters said, it could be depression. I went back to college from 2006-2008 for 5 semesters,
to get a teaching degree, just in time for Pennsylvania to lay off 20,000. It didn't take long to realize
that I wasn't ever going to be able to teach now. I was 53 by the time life afforded me the chance to
get that degree and teach; I had wanted that my entire life. All I was given was the opportunity to
long-term sub for one year, and then the massive layoffs began and continued for three years. Some
areas that didn't do layoffs back then are NOW doing it, having used up their own rainy-day funds.

I was in deep mourning for quite a few months. I had no motivation to do anything. I'm over that now,
but somedays the cabin fever gets to me instead, and I have to fight myself to do anything. (I totaled
my car last summer so now I'm really trapped since this country doesn't believe in public transportation.)

BUT, when I clearly know that it is something that is important to my husband, something that makes
HIS day brighter, well, then doing at least THAT makes MY day brighter, too. And once I get moving,
it's easier to keep moving.

And as other posters also said, different people are comfortable with different levels of OCD-clean or
utter chaos. My husband likes to have piles and piles of stuff everywhere. I ask him nicely to please
put thus-and-so away, only to find that for weeks on end he adds to the piles of stuff around his chair,
on his table, on the dining room table, on the floor. So I give him warning: you've got x amount of
time or I am moving it because I can't stand it. And then, I move it all to his hobby area. He was furious
the first few times I did it. I explained it to him this way: we BOTH live here. I have accomodated you
by allowing you to have 'x' weeks of complete clutter. Now I can't stand it anymore, and it is MY turn
to have 'x' weeks clutter-free. He doesn't complain anymore and he even actually moves SOME of his
stuff...but never all of it, because he piles it so deep. I think he's agoraphobic and I know I am claustrophobic...
plus I'm the one trying to dust and vacuum around his stacks of books and hobby crap. So, we take turns.
Every person is different, every couple is different. To just blatantly say they don't care is not right at all.,

[uppityperson]

2. People have different standards of cleanliness. Do not expect her to be you, or do what you did.

We deal with this all the time here, whoever has the least tolerance for mess ends up cleaning and not understanding why the other doesn't see it also. It's taken a long time to figure out we are different. Good luck.

[IrishAyes]

11. You might be different people, but you have equal responsibilities toward one another.

[bigwillq]

3. Man up and tell her straight out.

She's your wife. Just be honest. Feelings may get hurt, and it's not a guarantee that she will modify her behavior, but have an honest talk. You need to say how you feel.

All the best.

[PassingFair]

4. How long did your "period of unemployment" last.

Your wife might be depressed.
Or maybe you two have different ideas of what constitutes a disaster.

I don't think you're being "sexist" to expect a level of cleanliness.

[magical thyme]

5. doesn't sound sexist at all to me.

You need to tell her how you feel -- too tired from work to help as much as you used to, but uncomfortable with living in a mess. But you also need to find out how she feels. Maybe she has a higher mess tolerance or maybe she's feeling depressed from being out of work. If she's trapped in depression, she may be having a hard time getting herself to do anything.

[IrishAyes]

12. Yes, but getting up off our ass and doing something is very theraputic. I recommend it highly.

[magical thyme]

16. can't argue with that at all.

But first they need to identify the issue. If it's depression, there are strategies to deal with it. If it's something else, then they can deal with that.

[IrishAyes]

18. Later on I did say something about getting her to a doctor first.

I'm perhaps one of the few who loved that tv spot explaining why retired drill sergeants don't make good therapists. Made me cackle every time I saw it.

I'm not heartless. Just all too aware that the rest of the world will run you over if you stumble, so I'm very interested in keeping on my feet.

[Tsiyu]

41. Well you ARE all that and a bag of chips, aren't you?

But not everyone is as awesome as you say you are.

Many people suffer from depression, and telling them to "just get over it" is harmful, rather than helpful.

But you keep on your feet there. You are just so stinking awesome

[IrishAyes]

42. Don't put words in my mouth. Your description of what I said is totally inaccurate.

I do advocate self help to the extent possible. That's not at all the same as 'just get over it.' But I'm sure you know that deep down. If you just needed to strike at me, fine. Stick to reality while you're at it. I don't give a rat's ass whether you like me or not.

[Tsiyu]

43. Like you or not?

I have no earthly clue who you are.

But I do have an earthly clue about depression. I have sometimes debilitating PTSD, which includes episodes of depression.

I can tell you that the words you wrote here I have heard from others.

They don't help.

Just because you are strong and mentally fit, does not mean your personal approach to life will work for all.

That's all I was stating.

Carry on with your big, bad awesome self....

[IrishAyes]

46. Any decent shrink will tell you

that emotions are influenced by activity. If you don't even want to get up and move to improve your life, you will remain mired in place. Urging activity, even upon the unwilling, is a kindness, not abuse. If and when you accept the notion that you are totally helpless - note I did NOT say impaired, because that much is undeniable - you have participated in your own defeat. Trying to fan the tiniest spark of life into a person is doing them a favor. Agreeing that the situation is hopeless is cruel and unusual punishment. One reason I don't give a damn whether you like me or not is because I want to ignite some spark of life in you no matter how you revile me for it. Emotions follow actions just as much as the opposite is true.

If my bootcamp philosophy offends you, try to consider its survival utility. You're in a fight for your very life. I want you to win. If that makes you furious, at least you've made progress. All these naysayers in this thread seem to have no clue as to how devoted many a DI is to recruits; on the surface it might appear to outsiders and some shavetails to be mean as hell. No. It's an ultimate kindness. Until you realize and admit that principle to yourself, yes, I'd have to agree. You are doomed.

So choose. Hate me and let it make you want to live if for no other reason than to kill me; or hate yourself and perish.

[pipi_k]

51. Activity...

As a long time sufferer of depression, I sometimes have bouts of milder depression interspersed with deeper, more frightening ones.

About 13 or 14 years ago I had a bout with one of the deep, black hole scary ones.

Above I made mention somewhere about depression that's so bad that just breathing is too much trouble. Often it's accompanied by extreme anxiety as well. To say it's hell is an understatement.

Anyway, Mr Pipi was concerned.

He "squealed" on me to my therapist, who told him to make me go into our cellar rec room and get on the treadmill, even if I just stood there for five minutes.

I hated him for doing that, but I did it. Then I thought, well shit...I walked all the way down these stinking stairs, I might as well turn the damned thing on for a couple of minutes. So I did. And I walked.

Just for a few minutes...and when I was done, I felt tingling in my body. My blood was moving. My muscles felt relaxed. And my mood improved for about 30 minutes.

But it was a start. Each day I would go downstairs and walk...just a bit...on the treadmill, and I would feel better and better.

That's when I realized that Mr Pipi "forcing" me to go down and stand on the treadmill at my therapist's direction probably saved my life. For real...I was this close [] to being suicidal.

Might not work for everyone, but it definitely worked for me.

[IrishAyes]

53. Your post from the frontlines will have far more effect on others than anything I could ever say.

[Tsiyu]

54. I'm sorry Dr. Frist

I don't take advice from anonymous posters on message boards.

You are no more than a judgmental, pompous, self-aggrandizing, self-important ass.

That is the kindest thing I can say to you.

You will be my first ignore in a very long time.

[kcr]

45. You might want to clarify what you've been saying then

because you seemed highly dismissive of the notion that depression causes the problem. I don't think the poster was putting words in your mouth. I interpreted it that way, too.

[IrishAyes]

47. I just did. See #46.

[Sheldon Cooper]

6. What happened before your period of unemployment? Presumably you were working outside the home,

but what was your wife doing? Was she also working, or was she a stay at home mom? How were the chores met then, who did what, etc.? It's not reasonable to expect someone who is working full-time to come home and work a second shift there, but that's been the fate of women for a really long time.

Having said that, I don't think you're being unreasonable to want things cleaner, and you should certainly bring it up with her. It's not automatically sexist to broach the conversation. She could be depressed, as someone else suggested, at the loss of her job. Perhaps being a full time homemaker is not her cup of tea?

I'm rambling now, just bring it up with her and go from there. Good luck.

[IrishAyes]

13. I do a LOT of things I don't like doing for the sake of the common good. Not one to enable slacking

Slacking is passive aggressive at best. Get the woman to a doctor if she's depressed and get her moving. Yes, I grew up in a military family and that might sound harsh to some, but it's really the greater kindness.

[merrily]

24. Telling RandySF that his

wife doesn't care about him sounded harsh.

[IrishAyes]

29. Point taken.

Won't debate the finer points.

Kindly see post #9, if you will, please.

I grew up in a household that often included 8 or 9 people, never more than one bathroom. That's a laboratory for learning cooperation and familial duty. I suppose with some it could result in chaos, but we were just glad to have indoor plumbing.

[merrily]

38. I have been researching some of the homes in California.

Not the mansions. The little family homes that went up in the 1920 and 1930s as the film industry was burgeoning. Not the home of the stars, but maybe the seamstresses and tailors, the cameramen, etc. (although all of them make good money these days).

Many of them are so sweet looking, with interior details. I could just see in my mind the family in the living room, listening to the radio.

But they were 2 bedroom, 1 bath. (And this was before the birth control pill.) I don't know how anyone raised a big family in one of them.

[IrishAyes]

57. It gave us practice in not murdering each other. People had to be supportive and stick together

and do right by each other - if they didn't want to suffer the consequences. No fun to be sent to bed w/o dinner for not doing your chores. Mom also docked your allowance if you shirked. You got double duty on top of it too. If one of the kids misbehaved badly enough, the door to his or her overcrowded bedroom might disappear for a week, and then everybody else in the room would deal out their own brand of justice. We had a chore chart but were allowed to swap so long as we remained responsible for seeing that our original assignment actually got done.

[merrily]

58. People do what they have to do or

they get into deep trouble.

[IrishAyes]

60. Yes, there is some modicum of justice in the world.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. it's not sexist to discuss fairness. My partner and I do so all the time.

I think you should ask her if everything is ok when you are not there. Like some kids are more unruly with one parent than the other, maybe that's sucking up her time? Maybe, she's job searching like crazy or is depressed?

If none of these are potential explanations, than I would be honest about household chores and child care chores and find a way to divide these in an equitable manner

[noamnety]

8. I want to suggest another approach.

I am the messy one in our relationship. Cups left around just do not bother me at the same level as they bother my husband. If he started a conversation about how I am lazy, I would know it was true, but also I would resent that he's acting a little like a parent. I don't take too well to people bossing me around. I also don't like when he's passive aggressive - staring at clutter like he's pissed off.

But what DOES work for me is a simple request that's not a discussion about my worthiness as a spouse or a critique of my personality. "Hey, I plan on running the dishwasher when I get home, can you gather up the cups today and get them loaded up?" or "I'm running out of clean socks, can you run a load of wash today?"

I have a positive reaction to that instead of a negative one because it's not being packaged in a bunch of complaints. I'd rather do things because it makes him happy than do the same chores because he nagged me.

[NewJeffCT]

27. Good idea

she could just be mentally tired/depressed from losing her job.

[IrishAyes]

9. Turn about is fair play, not sexist. She's taking very unfair advantage of you. Maybe she's

clueless, but if so and nobody tells her, how's she to know? Was she always this self-centered? If you show her the very nicely worded OP to read, maybe she'll catch on. But if she pitches a fit, she needs the riot act read to her. This situation is so grossly unfair I'm embarrassed on behalf of women everywhere. She's spoiled rotten!

[Wounded Bear]

14. Don't see how it's sexist...

Whoever is the stay at home parent has responsibilities.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. People have differing levels of (let's call it) "acceptable chaos..."

Tell her how you feel (it's not sexist), but don't expect her to change in a heartbeat. She might be comfy with it, and then you'll have something else to work on--but you'll have gotten it off your chest instead of letting boil over into something much worse than it is now. If you really, really need a clean desktop, make that the one thing you take care of in the house.

[Texasgal]

17. There is nothing sexist

about a couple sharing household duties.

My husband and I have a good system. I work late, usually he cooks and cleans the kitchen during the week, on the weekends I do all of the regular household duties ( vacuuming, dusting..etc. ) I do alot of cooking on the weekends as well. We generally share laundry duties. it's not been a big issue for us because we share our duties.

I would share your thoughts and offer to split them.

[seabeyond]

19. I think starting the conversation with how the mess really bothers you

And interferes with your ability to find any Down time or comfort when you come home is a way to start. Focus on you. How it makes you feel. Not on her lack.

Understanding my husbands needs and wants takes me a long way doing the things I do not necessarily want to do. It is a two way street

[pipi_k]

21. It could be possible

that the place is a mess because she's depressed and just doesn't have the mental or physical energy to do much.

You might not be able to see signs of depression in her if she's good at hiding them, which is why, if this cleanliness thing is something rather recent, it might be a good idea to get an assessment from a professional.

[840high]

22. Direct approach. Tell

her like you told us. Nothing sexist in it.

[nessa]

23. Concentrate on the desk. Do you share it? (m)

If it is just your desk and the mess is yours, clean it up yourself. If it's yours and she uses it, ask her not to use it. If you share it, and the mess is hers ask her to not make a mess on it, or clean up after herself. It's not sexist.

[merrily]

25. I think the person who asked what she was like as a homemaker

before you were unemployed made a good point. If she was same as now, how did you handle it then? (I do not mean to imply that cleaning is all there is to homemaking.)

If she was very different, then I think you have some threshold issues to deal with, like what is causing the change? Is it depression? Is it resentment? Was she happier working outside the home? If so, would it be possible for her to get a part time job and then you can hire someone to clean. And so on. Don't be fixed on one solution.

If she has never been a good housekeeper, have you discussed it before? What came about then?

I do not recommend pointing out that you managed the home better. I like the idea someone posted above about simple requests, no shaming, no blaming. Also, is there a time, maybe an hour, even a half hour, that you, she and the kids could designate every weekend when you all pitch together and make it a family bonding* activity as well. Maybe even ten minutes an evening, too?

Are there things that could be changed to make picking up easier, either temporarily or permanently? A container where everything in a given room could be dumped? Sure it's not an OCD solution, but maybe better than nothing. Can your kids pitch in? Do they put away their own stuff? And so on. Is china a must in your home, or would paper plates help, at least temporarily.

I bet you could find online a lot of information on all of the above, both on how to approach your wife, how to keep things tidy efficiently, organizing tools, etc.

Also consider family meetings at regular intervals where family members can bring up issues, but do set ground rules. Bet you could find tips for that online, too.

Very best wishes for solutions that work for all of you.


*typed "family bonging activity" the first try. Not recommending that!

[TeeYiYi]

39. Why not?...

... Might help.

re: *typed "family bonging activity" the first try. Not recommending that!

TYY

[merrily]

40. Young kids?

[lunatica]

26. You probably shouldn't be afraid to have a good impassioned fight

I would say go ahead and have that fight. You both probably could use one. You can certainly tell her how much you appreciate what she's done in anger if you keep the fight clean and factual.

[TeeYiYi]

31. This sounds like a ploy...

...for make-up sex.
...GOOD IDEA... I like it!

TYY

[Marthe48]

28. Share the load?

I worked from home for a long time, and took care of my Mom, too. My husband was able to retire because of the job I had, and between us, we kept the house pretty clean. Now that we are both retired, we both tend to let the chores go, thinking we have time to get to it. We usually set aside a day and do as many chores as we can. We have paper and clutter that piles up, but the cleaning chores get done weekly. You best best might be for all of you to hit the chores one day a week, sharing the work, just so it gets done. If you are tired from your job, set aside a couple of hours on that one day, and get done what you can. It is frustrating when your family has a different level of comfort.

[TeeYiYi]

30. I'm a little confused...

(I know,... SURPRISE!)

But seriously, for some reason, I'm unclear about whether you were working or unemployed while being 'Mr. Mom'...

During my period of employment, I was Mr. Mom.
<snip>
Now, it seems to be my turn to be working and hers to be unemployed.
<snip>
I give her all the credit for working while I was unemployed...

TYY

[auntAgonist]

33. I think, just a simple typo. It's pretty clear he's talking about a period of UNemployment I think.

[raccoon]

34. I didn't understand the OP either. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

32. Is she having depression/coping issues with being unemployed?

If that's the root of the problem then you might try discussing that instead of the mess.

[TeeYiYi]

35. More questions...

Randy, are you working from home?..., or bringing your work home with you?...

re: ...I want to be abler to work at a desk that is not cluttered with food and coffee mugs.

Regardless, there's this: Your marriage is a partnership. Any discussion should be based on the idea that you are friends first, and not predicated on outdated gender stereotypes.

You are each responsible for 50% of your partnership. Working or not, you're still responsible for half of the household responsibilities. Forget about how things were done in the past and move forward with the understanding that you are still responsible for half of everything.

Don't have expectations and you'll never be disappointed. Do your half and feel good about yourself. Stop worrying about what you 'feel' she should or should not be doing with her time. Stop trying to control her and the resentment will fade. If you're feeling anger over what you feel or believe she should be doing, you're wasting energy that could be better directed.

Believe it or not, your wife doesn't wake up each morning trying to think of ways to annoy you. I'm sure she's harder on herself than you could ever hope to be. You're in a healthier place than she is, by far. I'll bet you money she'd rather be employed right now.

So, hold up your end of the 50/50 partnership and then help her with her part if you so desire.

Re: the desk and the coffee cups... Whether working from home or bringing work home with you, you should set up a small office space for yourself and keep it clean and off limits to the rest of the family; even if it's just a card table in the corner of the dining room.

Well, that's it for now. Good luck.

TYY

[LWolf]

36. Make a chore schedule together.

Share and share alike, and rotate. Don't attach household chores to employment or lack of.

[NewJeffCT]

37. Is this her first time being unemployed?

Or, first time in recent years? If so, she may be feeling stressed out or depressed because she's out of work Maybe she thought she'd be the sole breadwinner for the foreseeable future, only to have the rug yanked out from under her? And, because of that, she's stressed out and/or depressed.

Maybe she's still in the stage where she thinks a job she applied to is going to call her back right away, or that a headhunter will call her any minute, and she might miss the call if she's vacuuming or washing dishes, etc.

It might just be a matter of her getting into a regular routine at home - drop junior off at school at this time, then on Monday do laundry, on Tuesday, clean the bathrooms, Wednesday, it's time for vacuuming, etc, etc.

[merrily]

44. The OP must be busy cleaning up after his wife?

Or maybe posting elsewhere about the perfect guy, anxious to be dealing with a do-nothing woman in a very p.c., non-sexist way.

The OP has nothing to do with the fact that DU has been having so-called gender wars.

I wanted to offer what I could anyway, just in case.

Good info on this thread for anyone having this problem, though.

[seabeyond]

50. ya. lol. that. i took in good faith myself. nt

[merrily]

56. I had a feeling from the jump.

That's why I came back to check if the OP had been back.

aBut, since you can't be sure, I chimed in originally, for whatever help my suggestions might be.

So did everyone else, trying to help. All this thread shows is that DUers are good people who want to help each other if they can, even if they have their doubts.

Meanwhile, though, I tried to give everyone else a heads up without violating TOS, but people are still posting helpful hints. Well, as I said, the thread has good thoughts for anyone who actually is in a similar situation, so it's not a total waste.

I don't tend to remember which poster posted what. But, I think I will remember RandySF. I wonder if the F stands for flamebait?

[Iggo]

48. She's your wife.

You already know how to talk to her.

[chrisa]

49. Not sexist at all

That would drive me insane.

[stevenleser]

52. I think the way you phrased it in the OP is pretty much the way you should say it.

Use an understanding tone and ask her at the end if there is something going on that is preventing her from doing it.

[IrishAyes]

55. Incidentally, anyone who thinks there's a shred of privacy or anonymity on the internet

is living in a fool's paradise. (not talking at you, Randy) Anyone who gets too hot and bothered about my username can easily find out exactly who and where I am, even, with a little effort. If they don't know how, they should ask a teenager. Then if they feel compelled to contact me at home against my wishes, they should find a lawyer to talk to mine. I'm not a public figure and to harass me in such a way would be classified as stalking. No, I don't believe any of you have such an inclination. But it goes to the fact that having a username is not only a very, very common and healthy situation, it is also beyond petty to cast aspersions on those who do. The people who need to know my personal identity and location already do. Ragging on a person for employing a username is a juvenile fit of pique equivalent to shouting "Your mother wears combat boots!"

I'm using this independent post because a certain responder claims to have blocked me, and I don't know if responding directly would make my post invisible too. Unlikely, but here it is anyway. Don't go calling people a sneaky coward for having a username. Not that a one-word name is any better or worse! Unless you print your full name, address, and phone # on every one of your posts, you have no room to throw stones.

[IrishAyes]

59. hmmm... to no one in particular. (not!) I found my previous post entirely relevant since

I'd been sharply criticized for having a username like probably 99% of the rest of DU. And yet someone - probably the complainer - seems to have turned me over to the gendarmes for pointing out the huge disconnect. Is such overreaction an exemplary response? I don't think so. Otherwise we'd never be allowed to disagree with one another at all, would we?

I'm going to take my widdle hurt feelin's to bed now and sleep like a lamb.