we have a 7 pound mini toy poodle and a 2 pound teacup mess

[backwoodsbob]

she is half teacup pekinese and half teacup maltese......she is close to going in heat.

When the pups happen I will consider requests for the adorable pups on a how much do you love me scale

Seriously...is it safe for dogs this small to have pups?I've always dealt with my big doggies....I've never dealt with dogs this small.Is a 2 pound dog capable of taking care of pups?

She is TINY and she is closing in on breeding age...I'm really worried.I've just never dealt with dogs on this small of a scale

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Get her spayed. There are too many unwanted pets as it is.

Please spay and neuter your dogs and cats.

[backwoodsbob]

2. I'm the king of spay/neuter

but the wife wants one litter...I do too to be honost

I just want to know if a two pound mother can produce enough milk to sustain her pups?

[demmiblue]

8. The king of spay/neuter wouldn't even entertain the idea.

Selfishness often rules, though.

[backwoodsbob]

10. and being a smartass often overules common sense

There is nothing wrong with pups...if we spay every female dogs would be extinct within 15 years

[demmiblue]

11. Oh, please.

Someone is lacking in common sense, and it is not me.

[LiberalElite]

24. No body is saying spay every female dog -

just this ONE.

[Ilsa]

4. Amen. my pet is a rescue.

It would break my heart to see him wandering, no family, no love.

[Rhiannon12866]

29. So are mine - and they're also toy breeds

Brussels Griffons, but the little one became homeless when his owner died, might have been euthanized if I hadn't heard about him. And my other dog was a "pet shop rescue," couldn't be sold because he wasn't "perfect."

[ailsagirl]

67. All of mine were adopted

Don't know if that's the same as rescued but I'm sure crazy about them!!

[Rhiannon12866]

73. It's the same.

The difference is if you pay big bucks for a puppy from a pet store or a breeder. My guys all have sad stories and I adopt the older ones - except for my little Jack who found me at five months. He was rescued from a pet store, couldn't be sold because he had a health problem, a hernia that was repaired when he was neutered. There were four dogs in that rescue and a vet tech who used to work for my vet contacted me about him because he was the same breed as my other dog - who I adopted at age nine because his owner had died. This is Jackie. He turned eight this year.

Jack

[ailsagirl]

76. Awwww... what a little cutie

How lucky you are to have them!!

And vice-versa

[Rhiannon12866]

77. Thanks! And I certainly am the lucky one...

I've never been disappointed, though they do seem to find me. Back in June, when I stopped for groceries, I found a little guy in the parking lot who seemed to be all on his own. With the help of a couple of caring employees, I managed to get him into a carrier, so now I have a rescued kitten, as well as my dog, LOL. He's healthy and is becoming more of a little sweetheart every day...

Here's Felix:

[ailsagirl]

79. He's beautiful!!

Those eyes-- so mysterious and mischievous both!!

Looks as if he's thriving, thanks to you!!

[Rhiannon12866]

80. He really is adorable, getting bigger every day and he seems to be long haired

I'll be grateful when he learns he can't climb everything, including me, LOL, and he really is thriving, has one more inoculation to get at the vet's, but he's healthy and just wants to play...

[ailsagirl]

81. Does he have a little spot of white on his chest?

I love it when a cat will grab a soft toy and kick it violently with their hind legs.
Always makes me laugh!!

[Rhiannon12866]

82. He has a small white spot on his chest and the tip of one of his feet is also white.

He knows what is his, everything from dishes to toys, and keeps an eye on everything, very cute.

[ailsagirl]

66. AMEN!!!

[uppityperson]

3. Even if you wish to breed her, do NOT do it her first heat as she is not mature enough to

have it not hurt her. That is the advice of every vet I've ever talked with, no matter the size of a dog. It is like impregnating a 12 or 13 yr old girl.

Just because it is possible does not mean it is a good idea for the female.

[backwoodsbob]

5. we have discussed that with the vet

he reccs that if we want a litter before we spay her we go ahead and do it

[uppityperson]

7. Is this the dog with epilepsy you posted about recently? If so, even more of a reason to avoid it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018682986

I have a difficult time believing any vet would say breed a tiny epileptic dog during her first heat, to not wait until her body is done growing.

[demmiblue]

9. Wow. n/t

[backwoodsbob]

12. yeah it's her

she seems to have childhood epilepsy.

She hasn't had a siezure in weeks...we are monitering

[uppityperson]

13. Why would you consider breeding a child dog? Let her grow to her full size first. 2nd heat

would be much healthier for her than a first heat.

Also, you said in that OP that she had seizures Oct 28, 12 days ago and was loopy from the meds.

From what you wrote less than 2 weeks ago, and with her being at most 6 months old (typical age for first heat), this is REALLY NOT a good idea to consider.

[a la izquierda]

37. My dog has epilepsy

I would never, ever breed him (he's neutered, but never mind that). I wouldn't want my dog passing on that genetic mess for someone else to deal with. When my dog has seizures, they last hours (they're lick-fit seizures, and they're awful).
Reconsider this. Seriously.

[dionysus]

145. holy shit. My beloved Snives (RIP) had seizures the last few years of his life. He was a kitteh,

and his seizures only lasted about a minute or so. I can't imagine a poor little guy having seizures that long

[a la izquierda]

146. It's awful. Truly, truly awful.

We had him at Ohio State's veterinary school to try and figure out exactly what the issue was, but they really didn't know. Their best guess was a sort of atypical seizure, or lick fit, which is somewhat common in Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs...but our dog is not a Swissie. From Wikipedia:

Lick fit[edit]
Lick fit is the frantic licking to which Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs can be prone.[1] This has been reported in 17% of the breed.[1] When in the middle of a lick fit, the dog will lick anything they can — carpet, floors, walls — and will eat anything they can find, including grass, leaves, dirt, carpet, and will gulp air and swallow constantly.[1] Their actions make it obvious they are in severe gastrointestinal discomfort.[1] Many owners are able to prevent lick fits by ensuring the dog never has an empty stomach by frequent, smaller meals and large dog biscuits as between meal snacks.[1]

Epilepsy[edit]
Idiopathic Epilepsy (IE) is the condition of frequent seizures with no identifiable cause.[1] Seizures occur when nerve cells in the brain become hyperexcited and send rapid-fire messages to the body.[1] Treatment of IE depends on the severity of the case and may involve daily administration of anticonvulsant drugs.[1] IE is present in all Greater Swiss Mountain Dog lines; it typically surfaces between the ages of 1 to 3 years, but it can become evident as early as 12 months and as late as 5 years.[1]

[Raine1967]

56. You are not a nice dog owner.

You are considering breeding an epileptic dog, and I will quote you:

we have a 7 pound mini toy poodle and a 2 pound teacup mess

she is half teacup pekinese and half teacup maltese......she is close to going in heat.

When the pups happen I will consider requests for the adorable pups on a how much do you love me scale

Seriously...is it safe for dogs this small to have pups?I've always dealt with my big doggies....I've never dealt with dogs this small.Is a 2 pound dog capable of taking care of pups?

She is TINY and she is closing in on breeding age...I'm really worried.I've just never dealt with dogs on this small of a scale

You are worried?

What the ever loving fresh compost pile is this? You are considering breeding a Dog you have known to be as epileptic?

Your Vet thinks this is ok? You come here with worries?

This is bad stuff. It is selfish stuff. I am not rue what you want from this thread, but you should know that you were not join to get approval.

[Raine1967]

52. If you are *really worried* you should talk to your Vet.

If you have already discussed this litter with said Vet why are you posting this OP here?

[Avalux]

138. Do you care about her health and well-being? If you do, don't breed her.

She's tiny, young, and the actual act of sex with a larger male will be very traumatic for her...let alone a pregnancy and puppies.

Sure they'd be cute, but please don't put her through that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

6. your vet didn't warn you that it's risky for tiny dogs to breed?

Tiny female dogs having a litter....risky. Better if the smaller one is the male.

I'm surprised your vet didn't talk about it.

[backwoodsbob]

15. She warned us of the risks

She feels if we are going to breed them to do it now.

We want one or two litters before we have her spayed...the vet says she is no more vulnerable the first time she goes in heat than any other time.

She says go for it

[Kali]

16. Now it is TWO litters?

You disgust me. Breeding an unsound, immature dog is irresponsible and ignorant. That a person who claims to rescue and promote spay and neuter programs would troll the good natured people of the lounge with this bullshit is just fucking over the top.

[uppityperson]

17. AKC says not 1st heat, as do all other sources I see. Risking her & pups life and health?

Do you seriously not care about her or the pups life and health?

No reputable vet would say that.

https://www.akc.org/breeders/resources/guide_to_breeding_your_dog/step_7.cfm

Bitches have their first estrus (also know as season or heat) after six months of age, although it can occur as late as 18 months to two years of age. Estrus recurs at intervals of approximately six months until late in life. During estrus, the female is fertile and will accept a male. The bitch should not be bred during her first season.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/breedingdogs/whelpingpuppiebreedingage.htm

Never breed a dam after 5 years old and before age 2. Even if your dog is in great shape, you are putting the mother dog and the unborn puppies at risk.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/WebPages/Library/BreedersFAQ

But the best answer to this question is to wait until both are fully mature so you can assess their physical traits and find the best mate to breed away from any faults. You should also wait for your dog to fully mature so that you can perform any necessary health checks on them to make sure that they won't pass on any heritable diseases or conditions.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. Get a second opinion.

This vet sounds incompetent.

[Ineeda]

21. Clearly there is no concern whatsoever

for this tiny child-dog. This leaves me to conclude the only reason that you would even consider breeding her -- the almighty fucking bucks you'd make from any pups that would survive. SHAME.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

23. no, she doesn't say, "go for it! Happy thumbs up smiley."....

She says, "I'm trying to warn you, but my position doesn't allow me to tell my clients what to do, and apparently, you two aren't getting the message, so there's not much I can say."

Don't you have any concept or concern for how delicate that little puppy is?

My Shrimpy is 5lbs. I had her spayed and that was rough enough on her. She also had a few seizures as a baby, first couple years. I would never even imagine putting her through a physical trial like that.


Seriously, backwoods, don't be backward. Can't you both use common sense? A larger, 7-10lb. dog impregnating a 6 MONTH OLD TWO POUND EPILEPTIC DOG???????? Excuse me?????? Do you think watching her die by internal explosion would be funny too???

DO YOU? Just SAY IT, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, PLAIN AND CLEAR.

Get a beany baby if you want cute and tiny.

[LiberalElite]

26. They just heard

what they wanted to hear.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

28. seriously.

Or this guy makes up shit and laughs watching people flip out?

[Raine1967]

59. I am starting to think that very thing.

This is all very disturbing. It makes me really sad. (and very angry)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

64. me too

He's getting his money's worth, I guess.

God, I hope this idiot is just telling fairy tales. Because if there's a dog out there endangered by this dickweed.....

[CreekDog]

134. you're being cruel, yet again to an animal

first you ask people here about what you're doing

then you get all kinds of input that it's harmful to the dog.

but then you just cavalierly go on about doing it anyway, and now it's 2 litters, not one.

cruel, cruel, cruel.

and with your history of bragging about shooting a dog (here on DU), i think cruelty is the correct word for it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Good grief! The dog is too tiny, too young, and has health problems.

Breeding her would be like impregnating a 70-pound 12-year-old girl with epilepsy. A pregnancy will probably kill the poor thing. If you want puppies adopt some from a shelter! A dog small enough to be eaten by a healthy house cat should not be bred. Period.

[alphafemale]

31. A 70lb epileptic child to a 300lb Man. What could possibly go wrong?

Why does this poster even ask for advice when he just does as he pleases anyway?

[uppityperson]

18. Here is the link to Pets forum. It might be better to ask there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1161

[uppityperson]

22. Wait a minute. Are you the guy who bragged about shooting a dog?

You will risk another dog with size health issues to try and get "adorable pups"?

Seriously?

[CrawlingChaos]

27. Please don't do it. Please.

It is very cruel and this suffering doesn't have to happen. The poor little dog can't make the choice to avoid this ordeal. Please, please, please don't do it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. Breeding this dog would be cruel and selfish.

You want cute pups for yourself, but to create them will cause that poor little dog to suffer and possibly die. And chances are the pups will be underweight, premature and sickly, and might not survive either.

Few things make me as angry as animal abuse, and frankly, this would qualify.

[alphafemale]

32. Maybe when that two pound dog is straining to give birth....

...to a pup with a head far too large to fit through her birth canal?

You can just shoot her.

[LisaL]

33. Breeding a mixed breed tiny epileptic dog.

Why would you even consider doing it?

[femmocrat]

34. Have her spayed.

It will prevent future health problems. Your vet is either incompetent or you are ignoring her advice on purpose and hearing only what you want to hear.

You must not breed her because it would be inhumane for the many reasons listed by other posters.

There should be some type of requirements for people to own a pet.

[Heddi]

35. More puppies to shoot?

Only if they're tied to a tree though, right?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8665082

PS, I like how the story changes---here, the original version, you got 6 stitches. Then you had over 100 stitches when defending the story later

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022831503#post53

Kind of like how your dog hasn't had a seizure in weeks...well, 12 days but what's numbers to someone who shoots a dog that's chained to a tree.

I love how you're "worried"....worried that you can't make $$ on some mutty breed to sell on Craigslist for $300 a pop? What will you call them? Cup-a-poos? Peek-a-tese? Kind of like Labradoodle and Puggles---back in my day we called them what they were --- mutts. Or maybe "target practice" is more of what you call dogs, based on your history.

Let me guess...that dog bit you and you had over 450,092,087 stitches!!! SHE DESERVED IT!!!

I'm sad that you're allowed to own animals. And guns.

[nolabear]

38. Look, this does NOTHING but drive away a man who's asking for advice.

I don't know Bob so I'm just going to do the best I can with the assumption that he's asking for real. If not it doesn't matter. But jumping on someone who asks a question and presumably is open to input simply ensures that he won't ask again but will do things without input.

You've made your point. Often. No one's missed it. But this kind of response does nothing to help and may do harm. If you really care about the dog, try to give constructive and not destructive ideas.

[LisaL]

41. It's irresponsible to breed an epileptic dog.

There is just no other answer here.

[nolabear]

43. See below. I wouldn't do it either. But I favor talking to Bob reasonably.

It's really all I have to offer.

[Heddi]

44. I do care for the dog. That's why I believe he shouldn't be allowed to own one

that's as constructive as I can get. He shouldn't own a dog. Or a cat. Or any other creature that depends on him for food, safety, and security.

He should not be allowed to own firearms. He abuses his right to own firearms as he abuses his right to own animals. He treats both miserably, and the privilege of both should be removed from his life.

perhaps if one does not want to be reminded about shooting a dog that was no danger, that was tied to a tree, one should not gleefully post about shooting a dog, that was no danger, that was tied to a tree, and punctuating it with "fuck that bitch."

Bob made the choice to post, repeatedly, about shooting a dog, that was no danger, that was tied to a tree. He then, repeatedly, post about what an animal lover he is. what a rescuer he is. But when he's not posting about shooting a dog that was tied to a tree, he posts about trying to breed a miniature dog that is going through it's first heat that just suffered debilitating seizures and has a sad because he only wants one litter. Well one or two. Maybe. Or more....

Don't blame me because he doesn't know to stop digging when he's a hole.

[nolabear]

51. Clearly you have your goal so I won't try to change it.

[arthritisR_US]

149. Seems to me their only goal is for the humane

care of animals and the responsible use of firearms. Neither which BWB has exhibited.

[uppityperson]

47. Way upthread I advised against it and he said the vet recommended to "go ahead and do it"

"if we want a litter before we spay her we go ahead and do it"

"She feels if we are going to breed them to do it now.

We want one or two litters before we have her spayed...the vet says she is no more vulnerable the first time she goes in heat than any other time.

She says go for it"

This does not sound like a person asking for advice, asking for real.

[NV Whino]

53. You obviously have not read any of his prior posts

He's just riling up the lounge. Again.

[nolabear]

55. Noted. I was taking it seriously.

One learns.

[FloridaJudy]

65. Anyone who would even *consider*

Breeding a female dog that has not yet reached full growth and maturity does not belong here. Even if the dog was a pedigreed champion, and the bitch was of a rare breed.

To do it with a mixed breed dog is completely unacceptable. I love mutts myself. All my dogs have been mixed breeds. And all have been spayed, because there are too many unwanted stray mutts already. I know because no one else wanted the ones I took in.

He needs to be driven off IMHO.

[uppityperson]

45. Thanks for those links. Odd how 6 became nearly 100.

From the older link

6 stitches and lots of family drama..was surreal

My wifes nephews shepperd came up here and attacked my terrier...I tried to pull them apart and his dog bit me in the arm...then jumped back on my terrier...I kicked it trying to get it off my terrier and it turned on me and bit the fuck out of my face.

From the newer

I killed the dog in cold blood.She was chained when I shot her.
Lets have this out FVe.

The dog in question had killed three dogs in maulings.
She attacked the Wonder terrier
I defended The Wonder Terrier
I ended up with twenty stitches to my face and nearly 100 stitches overall saving her.

And indeed, 12 days = "weeks".

All that aside, what he is proposing is animal abuse.

[Heddi]

46. This was my most favourite part

she's dead..oh well..I shot the son of a bitch..fuck her

Lots of compassion there. Tons of compassion. Just oozes. Compassion, that is.

[NYC_SKP]

88. Stay classy, Heddi, with your catalog of links to what other members said and did in the past.

You're just awesome!

[CreekDog]

135. how safe is bob's plan for his dog for it?

just let us know.

[NYC_SKP]

137. I would advise against breeding period, and toy breeds in particular.

I'm pretty firm about that.

[nolabear]

36. Hi Bob. Here's some important stuff to note.

First, a two pound bitch is very, very small. And it's universally wise if possible to have the male be a bit smaller than the female in the toy breeds because the pups need to be small enough for her to carry, and the genes of a bigger male might result in a pup that's too big for her to deliver without a section. Toys seldom have more than a couple of pups.

And she's too young if it's her first heat. Her own body isn't mature enough. It's like having a 13 year old girl get pregnant at her first menses. She isn't likely emotionally mature enough either. A young, nervous moths is the last thing you want. You might well end up fostering the pup or pups and that's hard.

Finally, talk to a vet. Let him or her examine your girl and let you know how healthy and well developed she is before you ever consider breeding her. Sometimes people don't do that because they don't want a lecture, but I guarantee it's best for her.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. She's depending on you.

On edit: I'm going to edit to note that I wouldn't breed her if I were you. I'd spay her. Just my two.

[LisaL]

39. The dog is epileptic.

She shouldn't be bred at all. Either now or later.

[nolabear]

42. I did edit to recommend spaying. I left that out.

Knowing she's epileptic reinforces that conviction. "Talk to a vet, talk to a vet, talk to a vet" would be my strong recommendation.

[uppityperson]

48. He said he did and...

"She feels if we are going to breed them to do it now.

We want one or two litters before we have her spayed...the vet says she is no more vulnerable the first time she goes in heat than any other time.

She says go for it"

[LisaL]

49. I don't know what kind of vet is going to recommend

breeding an epileptic 2 pound dog. With a male that is 3 times her size.
Epilepsy is genetic. Assuming that dog survives this breeding experiment, she can pass it on to her offspring.

[uppityperson]

50. Seriously, and on her first heat. I gave links to AKC and other places saying that was not right

[nolabear]

54. Makes no sense to me either. I don't know a vet who would say that.

I think I'll let my advice stand and have to accept that I can't control anything. It's dangerous for that little bitch in many ways to breed her, pRticularly now.

[Raine1967]

58. I recall DU had a Vet ro two that posted in the lounge.

I would really like to hear the voice of a veterinarian.

This makes no sense.

[femmocrat]

61. Kestrel?

I think that is her name. Does anyone know her?

[uppityperson]

62. I already checked, she's on a time out.

[Raine1967]

69. Damn. That was who I was thinning of. eom.

[CreekDog]

136. if she sends me a pm with a response, i will post it verbatim.

no problem.

i doubt she should be on a timeout while trolls post with abandon.

[Raine1967]

70. That is one of the names I was thinking of. someone

down thread she is on a time out. Damn.

I would love her voice for this thread.

[Rainforestgoddess]

105. My husband's a vet but doesn't post here

He says bad idea all around. Most tiny dogs need c sections, epileptic... If she survives the pregnancy and delivery, she's possibly passing on the potential for epilepsy to her pups (depending on the cause of the seizures, not all are genetic) too young, of course. 2yrs is best, and if she 'grows out of' the seizures, that will give her time to do so.

All that being said, spaying her before her first heat will reduce the chance of mammary cancer substantially.

[Raine1967]

57. Reasonable, you are.

I do not have the temperament that you do; my response was based on the responses I saw from the OP.

I have to be very honest, the OP already said that there was a conversation with the Vet. I don't know why this would need to be an OP. This is something that the vet should have answered.

Any dog that is known to epileptic should not be bred. Not to mention we are not even talking about pure breeding. I don;t know enough if anything about purebreds but I don't think this would be encouraged.

[nolabear]

60. I'm with you.

[a la izquierda]

40. *slams my head against the table*

I don't even know where to start. How about you start at an animal shelter. If I recall, you're from the south, right?
Well, the south has a really shitty record with its kill shelters. How about you go rescue some tiny "mutt" (that's all designer dogs are anyway) before it gets gassed or shot or whatever.

[irisblue]

63. Breeding a dog with epilepsy is a very poor choice.

watching her have a seizure was awful for you.....do really want someone else to watch that. Please don't.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

68. Breeding an immature, kitten-sized dog with epilepsy

with a dog three times her size is not only a poor choice, it's animal cruelty.

[LeftyMom]

71. The ineveitable surgical delivery is going to eat up all of your profits.

And unless your vet is a complete moron it's going to end in a spay.

If you're lucky the puppies will make it, but I don't like your chances.

You're not going to listen to any arguments about the welfare of the dog and we both know it, so let's just focus on that: you're going to spend more on this than you're going to get back selling fluffy little mutts on craigslist.

edit: Also anybody who isn't a complete dipshit is going to ask about the health of the parents before they buy your puppies. Even if they come through apparently healthy you're going to have to tell them the mother has seizures (and not sell any puppies because people aren't that stupid) or you're going to have to lie and go to court later when the puppies get sick and they sue you.

[RebelOne]

72. I have a 7-pound female Chihuahua and she was from a litter

of three and one of them was born dead. There is no way that I would breed my dog.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

74. Underweight, premature mutts with a family history of epilepsy

are not going to sell at all well, on craigslist or anywhere else. Dead ones are even less marketable. That might be something to consider.

This thread is just infuriating. I can't imagine caring so little for my pet's welfare.

[RebelOne]

129. My dog is not underweight nor was she premature

and has no family history of epilepsy. My son was a breeder of Chihuahuas and they were well cared for by the family vet. I was given the puppy on Mother's Day. Why this comment about caring so little for my pet's welfare? That was infuriating to me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

132. I wasn't referring to you! I was talking about the OP!

He's the one with an underweight, epileptic dog and is talking about breeding her, which is what everybody in this thread is upset about. I don't know why you think I was criticizing you. I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. I was adding to the remarks by LeftyMom in #71 and not commenting on your post at all.

[RebelOne]

148. Well, you replied to my post.

[BeanMusical]

75. Cool story bro.

[orleans]

85. and here's the photo

[Brigid]

78. I've heard of dumber ideas than this . . .

Can't think of any right now . . .

[CreekDog]

83. I don't think you should ever post about dogs on DU ever

given your history on the subject here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8665082&mesg_id=8665413

[helderheid]

92. Holy fuck!

[Whoa_Nelly]

84. You say you're a big fan of spay/neuter

and you are asking here about all this?

Seriously?

Have her spayed, don't treat her like she's a possession and wonder if she may survive, and how she might be able to have and/or take care of the babies.

[helderheid]

93. This!!!! What the hell?

[mentalsolstice]

86. Dog killer!

First you come on here to brag about shooting your dog while it was chained to a tree. Now your going to risk this poor puppy's life to attempt to a get a litter or three of "designer dogs" to sell on craigslist. Most reputable breeders, as in those who know what they're doing and do so with a standard of care and ethics, will tell you they don't make money off their litters. In fact, they usually end up losing money.

Maybe this will result in a hide, but I think you're a nasty piece of work...one of the worst I've seen on DU. There are trolls here, and some of them do it as a performance art. However, you don't rise to their level. Regardless of whether your tales are true, all you've proven to be is a big stinking POS!

[NYC_SKP]

87. You might want to reserve such condemning conclusions.

Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2014, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)

The member asked a simple question, no need to beat him up.

The man has a question, offer your sage advice or just hide the thread and find one that you can contribute to.

Good day.

[uppityperson]

89. NYC_SKP, how is breeding a 2 lb first heat epileptic puppy ok? I live rural and don't understand

your point.

[NYC_SKP]

90. It's not OK, and it's not my point. But insulting the poster will do not a whit of good.

Until I have reason to believe otherwise, I take the OP to be sincere with this question.

And, I'm encouraged by most of the answers, like yours, strongly urging that he cease this idea.

Personally, I don't get "breeding". My last two dogs were adopted, the present one from an itinerant family on the street.

I find the whole enterprise of toy breeds very off-putting, to be kind, and as I understand it, breeding for purity leads to physical defects.

One litter or two? I say no litters.

But I don't like to see the man called names and I'm even more angry with people who drag up a member's past and try to assassinate their character, as has been done in this thread.

Respectfully, as ever,

NYC_SKP

[uppityperson]

96. I have no problem looking at someone's history.

If you notice he wrote off "talk to the vet" as the vet saying "go for it". Hardly a point any reputable vet would do. And I have no problem looking at someone's history, especially as it relates to a current thread.

ETA, 12 days before he started this thread, he was posting about this puppy having epileptic seizures and reacting badly to the medicine. In this thread he has said she hasn't had seizures for a couple weeks. In the "I shot a dog" threads his story also changed from 6 stitches to nearly 100 and it also showed he had no regard for having the dog put down humanely.

History.

[Starry Messenger]

100. The only thing actually assassinated was a dog. By the OP.

His character speaks for itself.

[CreekDog]

102. bob isn't being given a hard time simply for shooting a dog

he's being given a hard time in large part for bragging about it in multiple posts on DU.

in case it's lost on you, there is a difference. even though what he did was indefensible anyway, bragging about it in the way he did was arguably sociopathic.

but you don't have any sense of reason or proportionality, which is evidenced by this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022002711

[helderheid]

91. Amen

[Kali]

94. shooting a dog in an emergency is one thing

constantly trolling DU and the Lounge with this bullshit is a whole 'nother deal.

[FloridaJudy]

97. A tea-cup poodle is hardly a farm dog.

Some farmers can't afford to be sentimental about animals. I know one who shot a feral dog that had killed dozens of his chickens, but that was only after numerous attempts to trap it, and calls to animal control had failed.

And he felt bad about it. He didn't gloat that he'd "shot the fucker".

[FloridaJudy]

104. BTW

When he went to bury the dog, and discovered she was lactating, he tracked down the puppies, and found good homes for all of them. That's how I got my first dog as an adult.

I didn't hold it against him that he'd killed my dog's mother. Both his livelihood and the safety of his other animals were at stake. I doubt very much that this is the case here.

[avebury]

98. Urban Vs Rural people has absolutely nothing to do

with someone making an extremely poor decision to breed a dog that could result in the death of said dog.

Have you read the OP's numerous dog related posts that he has put on DU? If you had you might understand why people are doubtful as to his sincerity about the welfare of his dogs. It matters not one whit what anybody tells this guy because he and his wife will do whatever they please, regardless of the consequences that it may pose for this poor dog. He is just intentionally stirring up a hornet's nest and ticking off a lot of people.

As it is, I would recommend that people just put him on total ignore and stop paying him any attention.

[CreekDog]

99. bullshit

shooting a dog then bragging about it on DU later is not an urban vs. rural issue.

it's what defines a poster as one who seeks attention in all the wrong ways here.

as for you, maybe you can figure out what basis you have for defending the OP. over the years, you've vacillated between defending him on the basis that he's had regrets about what he did (he hasn't posted any however...) to actually defending what he did.

[NYC_SKP]

109. Dahling! This OP is not about some shooting of some other dog only Lord knows when.

I personally consider it uncivil and trollish behavior when someone drags history into a "please advise" thread such as this.

Not that you did that, someone else brought up the dog shooting thing.

But it's not classy; it's playground bullying and nobody I know IRL does such things, it's just not dignified!

Anyway, I hope you're well, I was passing though again after another visit to Stanford Hospital last week, I don't go through the city without wondering what you're doing!

One of these days, CreekDog, we'll meet up maybe.

Ever been to the Academy of Sciences?

I get there more often than any other SF place, I'd say.

[FloridaJudy]

133. History counts

If someone who has previously posted something that shows he or she has little regard for an animal's welfare comes here asking for advice about how to care for an animal, it would be well to acknowledge "I've made mistakes in the past, and now I'd like to do it right.."

That is not what this poster has done. Instead, he has chosen to ignore every piece of advice people who actually know something about dog breeding has offered.

In that case we have every right to point out "Look, dude: you've acted like a jerk in the past, and we see no evidence that you've chosen differently this time".

I think most of us have been more than civil, considering that what the poster proposes to do is highly likely to cause unnecessary suffering to the animal in question. If I used the kind of language I think this boor deserves, you might have a right to complain. You don't.

[CreekDog]

139. just save the creepy invites for someone who wants them

[avebury]

140. Based upon you attitude about dragging in a person's history when

responding to a post should we forget the past actions of the Republican Party and Tea Party now that they control both the US Senate and House of Representatives? Should we know believe that the Republicans and Tea Party crowd are now prepared to do what is best for this country because past history does not really matter?

Please!

[NYC_SKP]

141. The Republican Party and Tea Party are not members of DU.

And, in any event, skillful dialogue involves calmness and reason, not over the top derision and insult.

Those are used by people who lack calmness and reason, and I pity them.

There's a better way.

[uppityperson]

142. However, derision and insult are appropriate when discussing animal abuse.

[NYC_SKP]

144. If the objective is to engage and educate the abusive owner, I would disagree.

If the objective is to shame the owner, and nothing more, then I don't see any good done.

Somewhere in there might be a positive outcome from the derision and insult; that shaming somehow works to reform the owner, but it wouldn't be my first choice in helping the situation.

[IdaBriggs]

103. Thank you for that.

As someone who did extensive rescue work (87 puppies! woo hoo!) over the course of years, I am biting my tongue on the wisdom of the initial poster, but the abuse by members of this board to another (and then to someone imploring them to stop the name calling) is over the top. The interesting thing is that (having recently looked at old meta threads from 2012) it is the same group who liked to play in meta....

After a certain point one can only conclude that this is more about their character, and less about whichever poster they choose to attack - and again, I say that as someone who does not approve of the intentions of the original poster.

There truly is no need for the nastiness, but some folks just can't seem to help themselves, regardless of the subject. I am pleased that at least two of the posts have been hidden.

Again, thank you for your call for good sense - the original poster has not responded to the abuse since yesterday, yet still the (dare I say it?) dog pile continues to grow....

[uppityperson]

106. How were you able to "recently look at old meta threads"?

If you'd let me know how that is possible, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[NYC_SKP]

108. This is becoming a sort of meta thread.

That might be what Ida meant. I still go back occasionally to see threads in DU2, pre meta forum, that were pretty meta in character!

Old grievances die hard!

[mentalsolstice]

117. No, it's a call out to me. Nothing new. Carry on. NT

[IdaBriggs]

121. No, actually reading some of the old ones saved offline.

For the drattable report. Lots of useful information.

Whimpering tonight - I may have to go back and review 524 pages of data AGAIN to validate the change rate. I need minions.

[IdaBriggs]

118. Certainly.

I had saved some of them offline. I quoted from them in "video 3" back in 2012 when I was getting beat up and called a liar about the stuff going on with "the neighbor girl." The more I protested my innocence, the bigger the gang up. I was re-reading them because of doing the drattable final report. I would be more than happy to send you the PDFs if you would like.

[mentalsolstice]

124. No need!

The large medical/research university in my city...one of the best in the country, was one of three to recently get multi-millions to study movement disorders in both children and adults. They only take referrals. After viewing my medical records and videos, I have a referral. I think I'll trust them, over non-medical quackery. Thanks anyway!

However, how convenient that you interject our past history about movement disorders into a thread about animal cruelty. Hmmm! Talking about meta issues...

[IdaBriggs]

125. Well, bless your heart!

[mentalsolstice]

128. Wow, for a person from the north

You know southern colloquialisms, and how insulting that term can be. Otherwise, I'm done talking about your research efforts, as you have no medical background at all. Please note, I've refrained from responding to your threads on that subject for quite sometime. It's only interesting that you bring it back up in a thread about animal cruelty.

[uppityperson]

127. No need to send them. Did you like to "play in meta" also?

I was just trying to figure out how someone could see meta forum.

[IdaBriggs]

131. No, actually.

I made a post that dropped like a rock, so I went about my business, then came back later in the day to discover it had blown up all over the place, with the assumption being my lack of response was a confession of ill intent. The main accuser sent me a PM that she had started a meta thread about my perceived villainy and thus I met meta in a vain attempt to explain what was going on (which I was repeatedly told I was making up). I was pretty upset about it as I do not lie, and I did not understand that "meta" was about being free to be nasty and vicious. Fortunately I later witnessed other people getting attacked, with the same lines, etc. so I realized it was not really me, but more about "target du jour." I am now working on the "final write-up" and kind of losing my mind. I shared a lot of good info/postulated a theory about what was happening, so saved a couple of the threads for that; pure coincidence that I recognized some of the players in this thread using the same tone/attitude.

[uppityperson]

130. What final report are you doing? Just being curious about another duer.

[avebury]

110. A lot of responses are coming from people who view

what the OP is planning on doing as flat out abuse. It sounds like they (OP and OP's wife) are more interested in trying to get puppies out of this tiny dog (who already has health issues) then doing what would be in the best interest of the dog. The OP is coming across as selfish to say the least.

Factoring on some of the OP's prior posts regarding his dogs it is easy to see why he is bringing out such a strong negative reaction from others.

[NYC_SKP]

112. But you have to agree that the venom that accompanies the replies can't be helpful.

These members would be terrible negotiators.

The OP may be cruel or confused or just uninformed but people who attack him are not going to get their point across clearly, it's just more fuel on the fire.

The best replies are the calm but firm informative ones.

[avebury]

114. You cannot negotiate with someone who

has no interest in negotiation. Just look at the Republicans in Washington.

[uppityperson]

113. Thank you, well put. eom

[mentalsolstice]

119. Not surprised, nope not at all! NT

[IdaBriggs]

123. Wish you and I had started better.

That old meta thread had some good information. It is two years later, and I still have zero data on adults, but suspect (based on the change rate for the older children) that it won't be as helpful due to the long term deficiency issues.

[mentalsolstice]

115. When it comes downright cruelty I call it as it is.

I've lived in both rural and urban areas. From my dad's side I come from a family of farmers, and I understand tough choices have to be made. It doesn't matter if it's rural or urban, sometimes an animal has to be euthanized because it poses a danger to others. However, I would expect the good people of DU, when faced with such a problem would do so in a humane way, after all other alternatives have been exhausted, and last I checked there are vets in rural areas. Not so in this OP's case. He bragged about it in a disgusting way, with no remorse, no explanation as to why he couldn't involve a vet, and as a result he didn't win a lot of friends, as most DUers are compassionate about animal rights.

BackwoodsBob came here, stirred up a hornets nest, and is now absent from this thread as he didn't get the advice he was looking for...as in his other posts. I called it, because it is what it is, cruelty to a helpless puppy.

[NYC_SKP]

116. You dodged a jury decision that came in close 4-3 to not hide it.

I prefer giving a warning before a hide, but the system doesn't work that way so I often write a reply asking for civility.

I've gotten hot under the collar and had the occasional hide, I'd like to have had a warning.

In this case, the jury ruled in your favor, barely.

[mentalsolstice]

120. It would be my 2d hide since DU3.

And in the name of animal rights, I would've taken it on the chin, PROUDLY!

[avebury]

143. I saw no validity in alerting on your post and

would have had no problem voting to leave it alone.

[NYC_SKP]

111. Oh dear, Ptah!

That's gonna get a hide, not from me, but dayum.

[Boomerproud]

101. I had a teacup chihuahua as a kid/teenager and she weighed 3 pounds

and the first thing my vet said is "If you ever breed her she will likely die giving birth." We had her spayed before her second heat. I am very surprised by your vets advice to "go for it".

[blackcrowflies]

107. spay her.

Especially with that weight disparity, it is not safe for her to have pups.

There are reduced cost spaying clinics, your local animal groups should know of them.

[riderinthestorm]

122. I'm shocked this animal abuse thread is still alive

Disgusting abuse of a "family pet".

[Le Taz Hot]

126. Good time to put you on Ignore

because in a few weeks when that poor pup dies in agony and you come crying on DU about how your dog and all her pups died I won't have to read it.

Nice hit and run, btw. Between that and your cruelty to animals it's showing everyone just what kind of person you are.