Older beginning guitar player

[Flashmann]

I started learning guitar,11 months ago,at age 58....I notice,in another thread,Scuba,also began at a later age...Are there others??

There are so many questions I'd like to ask,I hardly know where to begin..

For comparsion purposes,how far did you progress over your first year??...Once begun,were you surprised at how much time and effort it really takes??.

Teaching yourself??....With books??....Internet course??..Private tutoring?..Did you start with simple open chords,or the single string method?..Acoustic or electric?..Practice daily?..How long??..How long CAN you practice before your arm/wrist/hand/fingers get tired or sore??..

I guess that's enough to start with......

[Scuba]

1. Here's a (hopefully) encouraging update ...

I've been at the guitar for three and a half years now, and am finally gaining some competence. I have many excuses for being a slow learner - not naturally gifted and arthritis are two good ones.

If I have a single learning worth passing along, it's this: I failed to sufficiently focus on the positioning of my left hand. Instead of getting in the ideal position to form chords, I compensated by trying to apply additional pressure to get a "clean" chord. I was trying hard to be rhythmic (not my strongest of suits), making fast chord changes more important that good position.

As a result, I feel it greatly slowed my progress. If one can only hold a chord for a few seconds, and one's hand tires and cramps before playing more than a few than a few changes, it holds everything else back. I wish I had slowed way down and taken the time to properly position my hand with each chord change, learned that proper positioning, then worked on rhythm. Once I got the positioning down, everything else started to come much faster.

Note that I learned on an electric guitar expressly because less hand strength is required. It was only after 18 months of play - and building hand strength - that I started playing acoustic.

But that's just me.

I still take weekly lessons, and wouldn't be anywhere without them. Yes, you can learn some things from YouTube and elsewhere, but there's no substitute for a competent teacher.

Good luck, keep practicing. When you're really frustrated and feel like you're not progressing at all, practice some more.

[Flashmann]

3. not naturally gifted

Me either..If I have a shred of natural talent,it hasn't seen fit to rear its ugly head...

I compensated by trying to apply additional pressure to get a "clean" chord.

The death grip...Like most beginners I tried my best to strangle the guitar with each new chord..The worst was trying to dial in the big bad dreaded F,before learning any other E shaped bars....Oh yeah...I'm learning on electric too,mainly because that's what I like to hear..That it's easier to play than an acoustic is a happy accident...

I take weekly private lessons,in fact I go in later today,but I have a handful of online lesson sites I use too....Ultimate guitar is one...A couple have U-tube linked videos,like Justin Sandercoes site,whose method of teaching I really like....

In this past week I've gotten more heavily into music theory,learning to calculate the intervals between notes is just starting to make some sense....

So far,other than very simple and amateurish stabs at playing "Wild Thing" and "Louie Louie",it's mostly bits and pieces and chord progressions..

My instructor has me heavily into technique stuff,primarily,right now,to build strength/stretch/endurance and finger independence....Hammer ons,pull-offs,trills,"finger gym" exercises using all 4 fingers "walking" up and down the strings,in different combinations and I've gotten really fluid with 4 different scales...

[Scuba]

5. Sounds like you're on the right track and have a good teacher.

I've also watched Justin Sandercoes lessons and found him good. Now, go practice.

[Scuba]

2. BTW, one of the best YouTube teachers is Marty Schwartz ....

... At least I found him the most helpful.

[digonswine]

6. Exactly who I was going to recommend-

he is quite methodical and you can learn some simple stuff that keeps it from getting dull.

[Flashmann]

4. Marty Schwartz

Saved for future reference......Thanks!!

[Munificence]

7. I've been playing

for around 25 years so feel free to ask me anything you wish.

I can't really agree on getting a good teacher vs searching Youtube and watching lessons there, there is a wealth of info on Youtube.

Guitar is a lot about "math" and noticing patterns, once you get your head wrapped around this then you will advance. One thing I recommend for folks is to learn the "CAGED SYSTEM". Start on this once can make your typical open chords and some barre chords. The Caged System will open up the entire guitar fret board for you if you learn how to transfer movable shapes and learn the major scale (doe-rae-me-fa-so-la-ti-doe) around them.

Most start by learning their pentatonic scales (major and minor). And I would say the 95% of all guitar players in the world only advance to this level. With this, I will also say that probably 80% of all "modern music" (Blues and Rock) are based on the minor pentatonic scale (as in when the guitarist takes his lead break he uses those notes/scale to solo over).

Marty Swartz, Justin Sandercore are ok to a certain level, however if you are going at this to get good, go to Youtube and watch some of Pebber Brown and Andrew Wasson and the lessons they propose.

Learing the guitar is repetition. You will start by learning your open chords and will have to think about them and look at the guitar to make a change, 25 years into it you won't even have to look at the fret board, you will instantly be able to move your hand on any fret over any string and hit that note or chord. I very rarely have to look at my guitar fretboard.

Also, work on alternate picking. This is where when you play lead, you do a down stroke and then an upstroke...discipline yourself enough to do this as this is the "right way you learn".

Feel Free to ask me any questions and I will help you along.

[Flashmann]

9. I recommend for folks is to learn the "CAGED SYSTEM".

I'm getting to that...I got Sandercoes E-Book,"Practical Music Theory" and that's still a few chapters ahead of where I am now..I know the "note circle",the "key notes" on the low E and A strings..Right now I'm getting a handle on calculating intervals..Next up are 13 lessons,with work sheets,on chord theory and then 11 on CAGED..

I know my open chords as well as E and A shaped Barre chords...Majors minors and dominant 7s in opens and Barres...I'm fluid in the Minor Pentatonic,Blues,Aeolian and Ionian scales,as far as running up and down them..I've played the Minor Pent so much,that now,I use it exclusively to work my hammer ons/pull offs..Just in the past couple weeks have started playing with improvising in the Blues scale over backing tracks,something like every other day...So far it sounds gawd awful... Oh,I started alternate picking a few months ago and now it feels weird to NOT do it....So far I just run through the Aeolian and Ionian scales,but can do them easily at 100 bpm+.....

I went through 6 of 9 stages of Justin Sandercoes Beginners Course and started on the 7th,before in early December,starting weekly lessons with a private tutor..I frequent Justins forum,as well as the one on the Ultimate Guitar site,to pick up tidbits and different perspectives..I use Justins lessons,now in the intermediate section,for further info and reference on things my instructor has assigned,as both coincide...Things like blues riffs and technique stuff,mostly,though I occasionally also revisit the song book section for a change of pace...

My tutor,all the while,has been heavy on technique stuff..Hammer ons,pull offs,"finger gym" stuff,bends,curls,vibrato and trills..All things I'll use in my playing,but at the moment the focus is on development of endurance,strength,stretch,agility and finger independence..He introduces at least one new element each week,in the form of chords or chord progressions,small riffs,strum patterns and touches on theory,as he realizes I'm ready for more..Although now,I think,I'm ahead of him,with studying the Practical Music Theory book I just got..

When I began,last mid April,I thought I'd be thrilled to get good enough to play around a campfire..Now that I am,it's nowhere near enough...

Thanks much for your reply...I'm sure,at some point,I'll have questions for you.....Hopefully not to the point of annoyance....

[Munificence]

11. Other things

You should consider is record yourself or making your own backing tracks at different tempos. For instance with you saying something to the tune of you trying to do improv and it not sounding good. I'd suggest since you know your major scale and your minor pentatonic then you should say pick a G chord, strum it in time for maybe 5 minutes and record it, then you go back play it and try to improvise over it and only it, simply play your G major (Ionian) and you major pentatonic scales (please not that in G you have the "relative minor" is E, so you can play your Eminor pentatonic and it is the same notes as your G pentatonic.

So record a rhythm of G over and over again, then play only those 2 scales. Think of your own melody over that G chord and try to reproduce in time, then once you get comfortable doing this, then go back and do say a G chord for 8 measures then a C chord for 8 measures over and over again, then work on your lead over paying special attention to the chord change...pretty simple to start, when you have the change coming up, right when you change hit a C note...that's the best way to do it...when you go back to G, make sure you hit a G note. Once you get comfortable with this, then start expanding on your Triad. You should have studied your Triads by now (and inversions) so now you will start seeing that in the case in G major the notes that make up your triad (chord) are G,B and D, so try to use these notes more than others when you are in that chord. The Diminished 7 (in G that would be the note of F#) is really a "grace" note..as in use it to slide or hammer onto G verses trying to use it as a quarter note.

Little things like this take a long time to learn, but it will all come SLOWLY!

Another suggestion and I am sure you have heard it "ear training". You mentioned intervals, well man, say them allowed or hum them in tune. If you go from the root to the 3rd say in G major then you are going G-B....say out loud in tune with the notes and this will help your ear training on your intervals. Also "recognize intervals as other songs". So if you go from the root to the 3rd of the major scale you should hear the 1st two notes of "happy trails to you"...now in the future if you will hear those 2 notes and say "wow that's an interval of a 3rd"

Once you practice this ear and interval training it will stick out about as obvious as a friend calling you, for instance if someone familiar calls you as soon as they start to speak you recognize who they are by their voice.....hearing intervals is just like this. You hear an interval of 2 notes and low and behold you will be able to recognize it just like you would a familiar voice.

I have asked friends that were "good" at playing music how much time to they think once has to put into guitar to become proficient, we've pondered and pondered it and have come to the conclusion that outside of being a true natural then one should expect about 10K hours!

I have an engineering degree was easy as pie to get it, I played college golf, I likewise played a year of college baseball, I was in Nuclear Weapons in the military, I delivered my 3rd kid on my bathroom floor, I started a business from the ground up at age 29 and sold it and retired at 40.........None of these things or "accomplishments" were as hard as learning to be a "real player" of the guitar.

[Flashmann]

12. Other things

My tutor has me building toward my making/recording my own backing tracks..I'll be looking to pick up a looper pedal in the next few weeks....What you tell me is very much the same as he is saying...

In the Practical Music Theory book I'm going through,chord theory comes right after the interval stuff..I'm not yet comfortable with calculating intervals to the point that I want to move on....I'll spend a fair amount of time on theory today,as I'll be letting my arm rest...I'm told not to expect to absorb everything in one pass through the book..That I'll go through it a few times,each time understanding more,but that each time,especially the 1st,I should have some grasp of the material before moving on..And I don't..I sit with pencil and paper for an hour,working out intervals in perhaps 15 note/problems and get roughly half wrong....Mostly from calling one minor when it should be diminished or visa versa..Then there is the double sharp,double flat thing which just maked my had spin.... Hopefully by this time next week I'll have started chord theory and will know a little of triads and diatonics..

I'm ashamed to admit I've been very lax on the ear traning..It's be easier for me if I had a "jam buddy",but other than the 30 minutes each week with an instructor,it's just me and the internet...One site I frequent heavily has an exercise where it plays notes that I write down then check the answers after....I don't do it nearly often enough,and haven't done it in some time now...When I was using it,I did great with A-E-D major and minor and ok with C-G major....

That,with all the things you've done/learned,you find guitar the hardest,fits with what I've heard from several quarters..That guitar is the hardest instrument to learn to play,but the easiest instrument to learn to play badly.....

I really,really appreciate others,such as yours,perspectives and input..Thankyou SO much!!..

[Munificence]

13. Don't get weighed down

Last edited Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:44 AM - Edit history (3)

with trying to learn it all at once. First try and enjoy it and learn some songs, then learn the important stuff/scales and such that relate to the type of genre you like to play.

For example, "blues" is the easiest to play when it comes to soloing so instead of focusing on your major scale focus on your blues scale. Folk/Bluegrass/old fiddle tunes likes to add in the blues scale also but you see the major scale pop up a lot also. Jazz or Gypsy Jazz is all over the place with 7th's, and to me can play about any notes over that. So what type of genre are you into? Practice that fo rnow and learn your chords, once you get your head wrapped around that genre. learn scales that compliment it then you can easily learn new stuff once you get the basics and understanding of theory.

Also if you are gonna be a lead guitar player really concentrate on that right hand (picking hand) and how you hold the pick and if you are gonna play with an open hand with a planted pinky or with closed hand. Going back and learning the proper technique with the picking hand is tough once you get into bad habits.

Recording yourself:

Free software on line is "Audacity"..search it and download it, You will need a set of headphones (decent set $100 used) and you can simply set up your tempo for the beat (generate a click track), toss on your headphones, hit record and play your rhythm over and over. You can then select an option to record another track with this track, so you have your rhythm track so you select to add another track while playing this track through your headphones and you can record your lead over it. If you do not have a decent USB mic then you can get a Blue Yeti Pro ($175.00) or the Audi -Technica AT2020 ($130.00) and these are just about good enough to do recordings on a studio level.

I used to play Rock/Blues then got really bored with it, even the shredding guys are not making much music. Now my style leans more towards "Hippie Grass" and old fiddle tunes. Give me Grateful Dead, Byrds, and anything Tony Rice and I am as happy as a pig in shit! I love flat picking at 240 bpm.

Also if you check out "tabledit"- http://www.tabledit.com/tefview/index.shtml This is a great way to learn to play lead...it's basically tab that you can play, hear, and slow down, speed up, highlight sections and there is a free basic version that will really help you.


EDIT:

I wanted to mention that when you play for a few years you will build up some pretty tough finger tips. Sometimes in the winter months I can get out of bed, grab my guitar at 8:00 in the morning and not quit til maybe 12:00 at night or later. I hate taking a 5-7 days without playing the guitar as I know that my fingers tips will soften up and it takes a good week to get them back to being as hard as rocks! For the most part I can play without ever experiencing any pain for 8-10 hrs although my hand does like to fall asleep from time to time, but i just shale it out and drive on.

Here is the style of music I like/play, its gets pretty good so listen to the entire song/the guitar work.

|

[Flashmann]

14. weighed down

Thanks.....It seems so easy to get weighed down....I just this morning,between these 2 posts,went over the interval worksheet again,after re-reading the chapter...This time I was able to work out the double sharp/flat problems,although I had to stop and think....A LOT!!....

I DLed Audacity a few weeks ago,but haven't gotten to where I feel the need to play with it yet......But I HAVE it!!..

I am focusing on Blues,being that,that is mainly what I prefer listening to,and is the style I want to play....

I do really need to address my picking technique,especially in how I hold it,which is with 2 fingertips and my thumb.....I know that's not good,but my tutor says go with it for now,since that's what I'm comfortable with.....I have tried other ways and with and without anchoring the pinky...It feels so weird and unnatural and I get flustered...

[Zorra]

8. I started playing when I was 14, self taught but later hung out at Berklee and got some

great advanced lessons from student friends for free.

Started with open chords playing three chord songs that I liked, by ear.

I am a performer, and have been a guitar teacher, and can play for 8 hrs or more under the right circumstances.

I highly recommend Guitar Pro as a learning tool; but it might be too advanced for you at level of development you are in at this time.

Good luck, but you should know that you just ruined your life with this awful addiction.

[Flashmann]

10. you just ruined your life with this awful addiction.

I'm starting to get a sense of that... .....Nah......Just kidding...I'm retired with no other hobbies..Gave up booze years ago and cigs last year,so I need some sort of vice...That said,had I known just how much time and effort guitar would require,before I began,I might NOT have....Now I'm too far in to give up...

8 hours......Wow!!....I'm good for maybe 3-4 hours a day...My first practice each morning,which I'll get to momentarily,I can knock out a good hour,before I need a break,other than just shaking out my arm...After that the rest of my "practice day" is in 15-20 MAYBE 30 minute chunks...I've gotten beyond the point where I ever have to take an easy day,or a day off from soreness..Though once weekly,or so,I'll need to from the kind of weak feeling you get from over use...Those days I spend lots of time browsing guitar forums,(And here )....I got a book on Practical Music Theory 2 weeks ago..I study that and do work sheets from it om "off days" now...

I looked up and saved "Guitar Pro" for later use..Looks like right now I'd only make use of the tuner and metronome,except I already have at least 2 of both...

Thanks for the reply!!.....

[Iggo]

15. Also know this:

Along with this particular addiction comes a chronic condition known as Guitar Aquisition Syndrome (or GAS), which is the uncontrollable urge to buy just one more guitar.

[Flashmann]

16. just one more guitar.

LOL....Yeah.....I have 2 already and I drool over the new telecasters,each week, at the music store my lesson are in.....

Then there are the Rickenbackers they keep behind the front counter........ I think I've already been exposed to the GAS.....I have a LP style Washburn,cheapo...A Squire Stratocaster,which I really like...So now I think I need a Telecaster.....Fender rather than Squire,of course...But then I think maybe after the Telecaster a "real" Strat might be nice...Then I'll need a decent Rickenbacker style one.....Somewhere along the way I'll probably need an acoustic.....

Does it ever end??.....

[Iggo]

17. It doesn't, but it can be controlled.

I currently have a wish-list of a half-dozen items (1x12 or 2x12 tube amp, Martin 6-string, any brand 12-string, any brand acoustic/electric, cheap small scale bass, bass amp).

I'm allowing myself one list item per year. This has led to the unintended consequence of lots and lots of shopping around. (Bonus!!!)

[Flashmann]

18. Amps!

Oh man......I didn't even consider amps......I need more AMPS!!..

Seriously,right now I have just what I need,in a little Peavey 15w "Rage" transtube,(whatever THAT is),practice amp....

[Munificence]

19. I am a guitar SNOB

when it comes to mine. I pretty much only play pre-1970 Martins (D28 - D18 and D35)

Gave up the electric guitar a long time ago, sold my Les Pauls and Tele's and have never looked back.

Momma gets pissed when I come home with a New Martin as she immediately knows I have just dumped anywhere from $2500- $5000 on a Martin guitar.

Never thought I'd turn into a guitar snob, but I have. Think I have around $25K in 6 of my Martins and all are over 43 years old.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. There's a Guy on Guitar Central.com You Should Check Out

His name is Claude something. (Sorry can't recall his last name.)

He has lots of good video tips on there every day and he's got a system. I've never bought it, because i've been playing for decades, but i've seen his "promo" of what is in the system.

I'm pretty impressed at his approach.

Might want to check that out.
GAC

[Flashmann]

21. Claude Johnson?

I get almost daily e-mails from Claude Johnson with little tips,riffs,licks and whatnot,and trying to sell DVDs.If it's the same Claude,he has a lesson website, Pluckandplayguitar.com,with video and text lessons,chord charts.Lots of free stuff.Mostly,what I get there,is a different perspective on things I'll get stuck on.

I saved the website you put up to check out later.Thanks much!

[ProfessorGAC]

26. That's Him

I'm not familiar with PnPGuitar dotcom. Never gone there. I always use guitar central or i just use the links from Claude.
GAC

[clarice]

22. If I may....

I have been playing guitar, dobro, mandolin for many years.
It sounds like you are on the right track. If I were to give just one peice of advice, it would be this. Much like a golf swing,
if you start out with the wrong mechanics, it will really hurt you in the future. For example, left hand technique (if you are right handed). Have you ever noticed that really good guitar players (especially bluegrass flat pickers) look like they are hardly moving their fingers? This is because they pay special attention to the excercise I am going to describe.
I wish someone had shown me this years ago.

Start on the low E string on the 5th fret.
put all four fingers of the left hand on frets 5,6,7,8 touching the strings. Now, pluck the note on the fifth fret - here's the key, lift your finger off of the note you just plucked and keep that finger VERY close to the string while plucking the note on the 6th fret and so on, work your way up through the A,D,G,B high E strings. It sounds complicated but what it boils down to is NOT lifting your left hand fingers too high off of the strings when you pluck a note. This is the best way to develop fretting speed.

[Flashmann]

23. If I may....

Certainly you may... I welcome any and all tips.

I started,months ago,doing something very similar,but for stretch,which I still do in the first 4 frets.You're describing a minimum movement exercise I'm aware of,but don't do nearly enough of.Mainly when I'm reminded that I need to is when I see my flyaway fingers when trying to push my speed doing scale runs.I need to go back to keeping a written journal.

[clarice]

24. fly away fingers. lol

Have you ever heard of Tony Rice?

[Flashmann]

25. heard of Tony Rice?

I had not,until you brought him up.I just did a quick google.My exposure to Bluegrass is limited to some old Flatt and Scruggs.I'll have a closer look at Tony Rice later.I'm trying to get my little half acre mowed before the rains fire back up.

[clarice]

27. Flash....

Bluegrass might not be your cup of tea....BUT.....
He is one of the best acoustic guitar players in the world !

Fast ???!!!! OMG. check him out on google. Let me know what you think.

[Munificence]

30. Come on man....

Look at my earlier post above from Youtube....that is Tony Rice! The song is Manzanita!

And to say you never heard of him....damn you didn't even listen to the song i posted...come on man! I am contacting the guitar gods as I type and letting them know to give you some really shitty hand cramps!

I live, breath, and eat Tony Rice, Clarence White, and Doc Watson

Oldhat

[Flashmann]

31. you didn't even listen to the song

Yes I did...

So you're to blame for my hand cramps.

I've spent a bunch of time the past couple weeks trying to get down,what my tutor says is one of Jimmy Pages main riffs and learning to play "Folsom Prison Blues",played as Luther Perkins played it,laid out by Dario Cortese.

I thought that was the source of my cramps,but all along it was YOU!!...You're a bad bad man.

[jeepnstein]

42. Bluegrass is where acoustic players go to really stretch their limits.

The best ones all seem to land there for a while. The great ones, like Tony Rice, stretch the limits and drag everyone else along with them. You wouldn't believe the insanely good players you run across at your typical festival. And then there are the guys at the very top of the heap...

One of the absolute best I've ever heard is playing for this group right now. They are very traditional in their approach and it's kind of rare to hear Matt really tee off on something. But when he does he will cause your jaw to drop.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DaveMountainview

Don't think of flat picking as the domain of dumb hillbillies. Sure the music is rooted in the Appalachian way of life but it is very demanding in a technical way to master.

[Flashmann]

43. Don't think of flat picking as the domain of dumb hillbillies.

I don't...I don't recall saying anything even close to that,here or anywhere else.I don't despise bluegrass,where it sends me screaming and running from the room or diving for the channel change knob,like say,cRap or contemporary C&W does.While I can recognize and appreciate the musicianship,in bluegrass,it simply isn't my "cup of tea." Call me a snob,but I want to learn to play what I like to listen to.Chiefly,Basic simple Rock,in the vein of Buddy Holly,Chuck Berry,Roy Orbison,et al,and Blues,mostly to the exclusion of the acoustic stuff.I don't have an acoustic guitar and have no plans or desire to obtain one,at this point.

I've been to Bluegrass festivals and had a blast,though admittedly,each time I went was more for the party atmosphere than for the music,the last two being private affairs just outside of Paonia,Colorado in '09 and '10.Where those were was very near Joe Cockers ranch and the possiblity of his attendance was an attraction,though if he made it I never saw him...Or I didn't recognize him.The people that were there,were decidedly NOT hillbillies by any stretch.If anything it was much more of a "hippiefied" feel.

[jeepnstein]

44. Don't know how I morphed the thread into an acoustic guitar thread.

I must have been reading one thread and responded to a different one or something. I'm really interested in the festivals in Colorado. I would expect the crowd to be vastly different from what I see locally. Folks outside of Appalachia really do view the music in a different light.

Lots of the tricks by the guys you like are done by flat pickers all the time. Clarence White of the Byrds was the King of the Flat Pickers and probably did more to kick off the New Grass movement than anyone. Jerry Garcia was a pretty good flat picker and played in the Renfro Valley. The list goes on and on.

Whenever I have to play electric guitar, a Telecaster naturally, I generally come off sounding like some sort of Deadhead most times. Not surprising since I followed them around for a couple of years. Some times I'll drop into a more Reggae feel because it closely mirrors some of my bluegrass rhythm playing. Garcia, Joe Strummer, Johnny Ramone, and Buck Owens; those are my electric influences.

Go deep into the mountains of West Virginia and you'll hear Rockabilly and Bluegrass fused into a really weird kind of thing. It's not unusual to see a player from the region switch through several genres during their career path. And everyone has to play in the obligatory rock cover band at least for a while to feed their music habit. The trick is not getting hung up on one genre or style too much. Ever see a kid with mascara and spiked hair who makes six figures in a metal band playing an old standard on his old D28? I have, more than a few times. I've also seen an electric guitar used on the stage by Ralph Stanley's band. Round these parts the rules that most bluegrass aficionados live and die by are more a mild suggestion.

I'm just a simple hillbilly. And not a very smart one by most accounts. It's all about the scales and the theory, and oh how I hate playing scales. Oh, and learning to read standard notation. That's just a time consuming chore. But around here if you don't know your theory and can't read music you just painted yourself into a corner, musically speaking.

Sorry for rambling, I just get wrapped up in talking music some times.

[Flashmann]

45. Sorry for rambling, I just get wrapped up in talking music some times.

Please,don't be sorry.I started this thread to talk about music in general,guitar in particular.Not really having anyone,in actual real life,with which to talk,I actually wish this thread,or others like it were much more active... There is always something to be learned or better understood!

I'm really interested in the festivals in Colorado. I would expect the crowd to be vastly different from what I see locally.

I'm afraid I can't help much with that.Most BG festivals that I was aware of,open to the public at large anyway,were over in the Vail-Eagle area or Denver,and I never made it to any of those.I was way over in the western part of the state,Montrose area.Some 30 miles from the Utah line,as the crow flies,90 miles by road...
The 2 years I did go were semi private affairs,not widely publicized.The general publics attendance was neither actively sought after,nor discouraged.
What it boiled down to was:A friends father in law,something of a 60s artist/sculptor "hippie" holdover and something of a celebrity,in those circles,having sold pieces valued in the 10s of 1000s of $s nationwide,lives on a small 20 acre "ranch",outside of Hotchkiss,Co.The surrounding area,Cedaredge,Paonia,Somerset,Delta and even Montrose is loosely populated by like minded folks,though not all artists.There are 3,who together run a custom/high performance motorcycle shop,specializing exclusively in American bikes.There are several,mostly in higher elevations,that grow hops,which are marketed to micro breweries,along with some especially and amazingly high powered "herbs" Handymen,Custom Van builders and plain ole regular people like myself,who by some measure of luck have got to meet and befriend some of those folks.I never met him but Joe Cocker has a "ranch" up there,with an actual commune nearby,complete with the VW vans and all the tie dyed wear one might imagine.Some of the people,having come from other parts of the country,have musician friends,or at least know a guy who knows a guy well enough to put together something of a "mini Woodstock",very mini,only with Bluegrass as the focus.

Both years we went,were at the same "ranch" outside of Paonia,known world wide I am told,for its particularly powerful "herbs",chiefly Paonia Paralyzer,which I can swear is just that! There is no paid admission,though everyone is strongly encourages to bring something along the lines of food or beverage.There are kegs of beer,boxes and case of wines,waters,sodas.There was a roasted hog each time.Every kind of salad,dessert or munchie you might wish for.Tents and campers are set up,being it's a 3 day weekend affair,attended by all the friends living in the area and the friends they have invited.Locals who have got wind of it through word of mouth show up.All in all,I'd estimate the crowd size,both summers,as something around 250-300,with 50-75 camping.Others,like us,just went home each night.

Having gone mainly for the partying and not being really immersed into the BG scene,I couldn't name any of the performers we saw,though they were all good.Allison Krause is said to have attended and performed,though not either of the 2 years I was there.

It's all about the scales and the theory, and oh how I hate playing scales. Oh, and learning to read standard notation.

I'm at a point,in my learning,where I'm getting something of a grasp of basic practical music theory.I'm finding that as I can do more things,more theory makes sense and visa versa.It's a process.
I haven't done scales enough yet,I guess,to hate them.I think I learned the minor pentatonic,in A,6-7 months ago and quickly went to the Blues scale and the major scale.all of which I used primarily as a means of developing finger strength/dexterity/independence.While I'm still doing that,I've lately taken to trying to play solos over backing tracks,using notes from within those scales,with bends,curls and vibratos.I've also started playing the Blues scale with,what I'm calling a triplet pattern,to further develope my finger independence. A 1-2-3-2-3-1-3-1-2 pattern,up and down.Another process.I haven't started in on standard notation yet,but am becoming more comfortable with tabulature.

I suppose I've rambled enough,now and I do have other things I need to do today,with and without a guitar...

Nice hearing from ya/talkin' to ya/talkin' atcha!

[stevebreeze]

28. I am also older and late to pick up a guitar I have one addition suggestion

I have many of the same problems others do here. I am a carpenter and have some serious mobility issues with arthritic fingers and shoulders.
Play with other people as much as you can. It will help you with tempo, if you are off it will stick out like a soar thumb.
I would also recommend open mic nights. Nothing focuses the mind like the possibility of making an ass out of yourself. Though you will most likely find that the vast majority of those at open mic have had their own learning curve. I have always been treated extremely well and courteously, even when I really did suck.

[Flashmann]

29. I am also older

I guess I got really lucky,in somehow so far avoiding arthritus,after 34 years of painting/drywall finishing.

I've been thinking about going to an open mic night,mainly to see if I might meet potential jam buddies.Not ready to be onstage myself yet.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Munificence]

32. Jam buddies are great

but realize that their are "clicks" that are mainly associated with what level you are at in your playing.

A lot of folks aspire for different goals in playing guitar. Some like to sing and strum, others like to tear it up with a lead break....so your goals may not be the same.

With this said, realize the level you want to get to and your goals and find like minded folks, this will really help you progress along. But be warned that their are "clicks" in jam circles and folks on similar levels tend to find each other and may or may not invite you in to play. Just view it like you would say when you were 10 years old and trying to play back yard sports with the 15 year olds, you could not compete or "keep up" at their level but in another 5 years you could.

Jams are fun, especially when you get into folks that go the Americana, Folk, Hippie Grass, Newgrass, Bluegrass type of genre. But be forewarned that they are disciplined to a level where they want you and most other folks that are gonna take a lead break to be able to focus on the melody line. Most aspiring guitarists do not want to take a lead break and just flail a lead out, they want to follow the melody line and add in some of their own take on it when they have the space (rests) between notes on the melody line.

Melody lines and improvising over them:

Think of the song "happy birthday to you"....sing that line (Happy Birthday to You Happy Birthday to You), that is the melody line, now sing in the same time frame but add in other notes when you can.....that would be "Happy Birthday to You (your freaking so old) Happy Birthday to you" By adding the comment in between you have in essence retained the melody around the original song and added your improv in where you had a blank spot.

The level that one should aspire to get to in their lead playing is to be able to hear a song for the 1st time in their life and after listening to the 1st verse and chorus a single time through they should be able to then take a lead break and be able to play their break with taking into consideration the melody line and staying pretty close to it.

A good way to practice this is by simply picking say 20 popular songs (cliche' songs such as "Happy Bday to You", "Sailors Hornpipe (Popeye's song), Dueling Banjo's, etc) you can hum without hearing the music that are ingrained in your head and you should work them out note by note on the guitar without using tab, sheet music or anything else...transfer the note that you hear in your head to the guitar and output it there.

This entire process takes years to master and I am constantly workingoin it daily, but in 4-5 years of practice you start getting pretty good at it. I typically can turn on the TV and listen to the back ground music in a commercial or on the main show and within about 10 seconds be on the melody line and following it with my guitar. I watch TV a lot with a guitar in my hand and simply try and play along with the music or background song that is playing. This will help you immensely in a "jam situation".

Blues follows a "question and and answer" type scenario when doing a lead break and you can get by with a lot more and get off of the melody, bluegrass/Country/Folk/Americana hang on the melody and instead are "humming the song" through their instrument.

Just some food for thought.....I've lifted your curse of cramps from earlier....next time I'll tell them to break your stings!

[Flashmann]

33. next time I'll tell them to break your stings!

Last edited Fri May 10, 2013, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Too late...I've broken two,actually the same one twice,in the last several weeks,and probably am about due for a 3rd.The high E,doing full tone bends at the 8th fret,breaking the string in the middle both times.I know this is indicative of either a burr or a groove on that fret sawing away at the string.I'm not overly concerned,since both breaks occurred after weeks of literally hundreds of bends.I can live with that level of frequency,for now.After the 1st break I bought a new set of strings with 3 extra high Es,in case in happened again.Plus,once I can make up my mind whether I want a telecaster or another strat and if I think I can live with a MIM or if I really need a MIA,i'm getting a new guitar,and will get the fret fixed on this one.

Jam buddies.Yeah I'm aware of the cliquish aspect,hell that comes with anything.When I was a teen,a hundred years ago,I'd often tag along with a friend who was learning guitar,mostly for the girl watching/meeting opportunities. We'd go to the quad behind the student union at the U of I,where there were always little gatherings of of a few guitar torturers and a handful of victim/listeners/friends.All different styles,well not so much C&W,pick your poison and join in.
My problem is,at 59,I'm not going to fit into that scene,if it even still goes on.Other than music store bulletin boards,there doesn't seem to be many "quad equivalencies" for my age group.

I was recently told that the local community college offers something like a 6 week intermediate course,through the summer.I'll check into and possibly do that,with an eye toward extracurricular jamming. Last I checked online,a couple weeks ago,all they showed were beginner courses during each semester of the current school year and nothing,yet,for the summer.

A friend here,who plays in a working bar band constantly offers to have me over to jam with him,wanting more rehearsal/practice time.When I get to an appropriate level,I'll do that.I'm afraid right now,I'd only hold him back and frustrate myself.I'm hoping maybe by mid summer I'll be far enough along.

Another thing I plan to do is get the series of 3 "play along with whatever genre" CD the music store carries and jam with my stereo.Series of 3 Blues,3 Jazz,3 Pop,3 Rock and so on.
===============================================================
*ETA*

Something else I'd like your input on,as well as anyone else's:
My last 3 private lessons have pretty much been,"keep doing what you're doing",with no new stuff added,with the exception of one week being shown a descending 'Jimmy Page lick' that simply playing the minor pentatonic beginning with the C on the high E string,pull off to the A,pick the 8 fret B string,pick the A again,move to B string and repeat.A 1-4-1-4-1-3-1-3-1-3-1-4 pattern.Sounds cool at speed.Not so much,yet, at the 60 BPM I do it in.

So now I'm wondering if I take a while off from lessons,bring what I know and can do now,all up to speed,then restart lessons,will doing so be harmful to my progress?
The next things my tutor wants to move onto hinge on my being faster,smoother,cleaner at what I'm doing now.
This assumes no breakthroughs occur during tomorrows lesson or the 2 weeks following,that are scheduled and paid up.At that point,it'll be 6 weeks being told to keep on keepin' on...Hell,I can tell myself that.For free!.

So...Good idea,craziness or meh?

[Munificence]

34. Although it may not be in your

genre of music, here is a little jam session of a "grassed up" version of "I know You Rider" that me and a couple friends done. I play all the guitar parts here, sing harmony on the common verse, then sing lead on "Wish I was a headlight".

Technically speaking these breaks (guitar, banjo, and mandolin) are pretty simple stuff and not much to write about, but "It works", so you don't have to get all technical for something to sound good, it's about having fun.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11754127

Oh and about taking time off from your lessons:

First I think lessons are over-rated. Over-rated in a sense that outside of a few technical aspects or methods that are tough one really does not need a lot of music instructor lesson. Get your foundation down then do the lessons yourself via watching Youtube lessons.

If you feel you have to keep up with lessons to create the discipline required to "stay with it" then by all means keep on keeping on. Lessons are good for the beginner. Once you have a firm understanding of music theory, understand chords, modes, scales, intervals, etc and can grasp them all then it is up to you to keep learning new things and progressing through playing. Make no mistake about, no one can teach you the "art" of being a guitar player.....it's an art. I have met many that took all the lessons and played for 30 years and without a piece of music to sight read from they were lost.

If you really learn something you will not forget it. It's like riding a bike. So time off from lessons should not hurt you at all, that is if you keep on playing some and expanding your knowledge. Most people take lessons when they have no clue in how to play a guitar and continue lessons when they want some type of "master" to discipline them enough to keep going.

[Flashmann]

35. about taking time off

I think I might mention,at tomorrows lesson,that I'll likely take off awhile after the end of the month.I wrote out a list of all the things I'm working on,in 5 minute at a time chunks.65 minutes worth of stuff just right there.Then the stuff that I have down well enough that it's more playing with rather than working at,is probably that much again.So I think I have the momentum to continue on,on my own.I see where I am at a point where each thing I finally get dialed in to,opens the way for other things.

There are 2 websites I use that have lessons with utube videos,text,charts and tab,that lately,out of boredom,I've been spending as much or more time on,than the tutors stuff anyway.

I'm anxious to hear the piece you linked to,but probably won't get to it,now,til Monday,when the wife goes back to work.If I turn the volume up enough to actually hear something,anything,she will immediately start whining that it's too loud. Plus we're expecting company in from out of town,literally any second,for a nephews wedding tomorrow.

Thanks!!

[Flashmann]

36. Just listened

That is an impressive bit of playing... I hear quite a bit of finger picking,something I've avoided mostly,so far.

[Munificence]

37. Haha

No finger picking in their besides for the Banjo guy. I flat pick pretty much exclusively.

What you are hearing is your brain telling you that there has to be multiple fingers there. The "speed" will slow down for you after awhile as it does for everyone....just takes time.

About playing and instrument:

Some have asked me how I got to where I am at with guitar and they think that I am a "natural" when this is not the case what-so-ever, it is all about putting in the time...baby steps all the way. When asked "How did you learn that" relating to a really fast song I give them this:

"Imagine walking 1 mile in the snow, then you need to walk backwards along the path you came without looking and retrace your exact steps going back"...that is what it takes to get good on technical songs (not the one I linked above). Playing lead guitar (or any instrument is like a fine choreographed dance.....it takes practice, you go to one section and "bust a move" then you go to the next section and do the same...all of these pieces strung together give you a product.

It is also like becoming good at a video game. When you start "Level 1" is difficult until you memorize the moves to get through that level, then after some time that level is a cake walk since you have done it so many times, you have learned it.

That's some analogies for you.

You have to pretty much have an excessive compulsive personality or be a perfectionist.

I played a year of college baseball - no scholarship, I was a pitcher and could run fast so the coach picked me up as a walk on as he had someone that could throw 10 pitches to get out of an inning and be a pinch runner. I roomed with the golfers and was pretty much a "hack" at golf. They had tryouts so I walked on, shot my lowest score in my life of 73 at the time (got some nice breaks and a lot of luck)...I was offered a scholarship for golf so I quit the baseball team. I knew that I could not even come close to shooting 73 again, I did not have the talent and I really wanted to remain on a golf scholarship for the next few years. I proceeded to hit 700 balls a day nearly every day and played at least 18 holes of golf 4 days a week on top of that. I never played in a tournament that my fingers were not taped up from being blistered. I won my first tourny during my second year....a really big accomplishment for me on a personal level.

As I mentioned before in some above posts, playing guitar is the hardest thing I have thing I have ever tried to do.

[Flashmann]

38. So was what I heard as fingerpicking

Maybe raking stings and hammer ons/pulloffs?

[Munificence]

39. Yes!

In the "split break" at the end I do a lot of hammer on and pull offs and a rake....toss that in with alternate picking and that is pretty much all of it.

Even though both your teacher and I mentioned "Alternate picking" and how you should learn it, there are really never any songs that I know of that are exclusively alternate picking. You may "rake" here and there then go back to alternate picking, cross picking, or other styles. Discipline yourself enough to be true to alternate picking, but pop some other stuff in from time to time. You will jump in and out of picking styles just like you jump in and out of the major and minor pentatonic scales and major scale...it's really common.

What is cool about the song I linked for you, are those guitar parts are "mine". Mine as in I did not copy my parts from anyone as a whole but might have stolen a few notes here and there. You will find that for now all you really want to do is to learn how to play. Once you start learning how to play at a level that you are good enough to "gig", then all you will be doing is playing other folks stuff that you learned note for note....there are a million "Stevie Ray Vaughns", Hendriks, Claptons, and such out there...learn their stuff then come of up with your own, then you will get a real cool since of accomplishment.

I am not much of a fan of hard line "traditional" bluegrass. I am really a "hippie grass" type of guy. In the late 60's bluegrass got away from the major scale and really went into the blues scale as the main focus. It's real close to playing the blues and we operate pretty much in the same manner, but we do not bend any strings and will stay on the melody line. About the only time we get off the melody line is if we take a second break then it's kind of a free for all. The idea is that you proved your ability to hang on a melody line the first go round and you are now getting a second chance to do "free style". In the song I linked we had three lead breaks for the guitar, banjo, then mandolin, we had another spot for a break so we "split it" and let all three instruments make a statement that were off of the melody.

Good catch on the rake and hammer on and pull offs. I'd say you thought it was finger picking also because in some spots I was alternate picking over two strings.

Once you get your ear trained, can indentify intervals, and have a firm foundation on technique songs and stuff like identifying what someone just done will become a lot easier.

if you go at it pretty hard (say 30-50 hours a week) then in 2-3 years you will become a good enough musician to gig...that is with a strong base on scales, technique, ear training and the like....do not skip them, at least have the understanding of the theory and focus heavy on the technique and you will be playing your own stuff before you know it.

[Flashmann]

40. 30-50 hours a week

Man...That's easily twice what I'm currently putting in.It's all I can do to put in 3 hours a day.I WANT to do more.My fingertips might take it but my wrist and arm won't.
In my first practice session each day,I can go 60-90 minutes,depending on what I'm practicing,5 minutes at a time each,and in what order I do them in,before a soreness or fatigue somewhere makes me stop.After some rest and recovery time,I'm only good for 15-20 minute spurts to make my daily 3 hours.I always try to push myself a ways past where I start feeling sore/tired,hoping to stretch that point.I'm not noticing that that's happening so much as the time I need to rest between is becoming shorter.Months ago I had to recharge a couple hours.Now it's as little as 15-20 minutes.So I MUST be getting stronger,but it's not showing up as letting me go longer.

My practice routine is already pretty heavy with scales and technique stuff and I think I have a grasp of practical music theory beyond what I can physically do with it.Although I'm taking something of a break,I am studying music theory.Ear training is something I've been unable to buckle down to.My instructor mentioned once,kind of offhandedly,that ear training comes as a consequence of learning all the other stuff.That it,in large part,resolves itself and can be fine tuned later.That,at this stage,we have bigger fish to fry.Being that,for some reason I've come to dread the ear training exercises I have been exposed to,I accept that as reasonable...

[Munificence]

41. Keep playing regulary

Last edited Wed May 15, 2013, 11:29 AM - Edit history (2)

and you will see that the amount of time you can play will keep increasing to some extent. Guess a lot of it has to do with "old battle scars" and such. I never really physically hurt myself in the form of any broken fingers, arms, etc so I don't have a lot old battle scars to hinder my playing. If I have my fingers calloused up nicely then I can play for 12 hours at a time and have done so on many winter days.

Also as you go along this path of learning to play the guitar that you are learning a lot at once and it will also become easier to learn new stuff once you can do things like hit the right string without looking, memorize your scales, etc. at this point your learning will increase per practice setting dramatically and you will be able to focus on "making music".

Music is a language. Go at it like you are learning a new language. Think back to one of your kids or when you were a kid and how slow the process really is! You start with words, then come sentence fragments, then complete sentences, then you grab a pencil and start to learn how to write it down. In the first 9 years you have managed to get the basis/structure down and understand what language is about.

Music is a language, make no mistake about it. You are in essence "talking" or "singing" through the medium of an instrument.

On to a great training aid:

If you have not, go download this software (tabeledit), you can download the free "TefView" and listen to tab until your heart is content:

http://www.tabledit.com/


I do not know what is available in the form of "blues" out there, but there's plenty of bluegrass stuff and other stuff out there. Just for talking purposes go download "Blue Railroad Train" from here:

http://www.freewebs.com/guitarmantabs/


Now you are able to "hear tab". You can go into "midi", then to "midi options" and change the BPM and slow it down, you can even click on the little red square while it is playing, it will stop and then you can highlight a section and then it will only play it. You can find these files everywhere on the web in the form of scale practice, songs, licks, etc. and I suggest that you use this resource out there.

So now for "Blue Railroad Train". I can take this file that someone worked out "Tony Rice's Break" and play it through tabledit and in 4-6 hours have it down enough to play it slow and not have to look at the file/listen...have it barely memorized. From there it will take another 100 times or so to get it up to speed. Then I will record with a USB mic the rhythm backing in audacity (if you are gonna take the time required to become a lead guitar player then do not over look the rhythm section) and then I will play the lead maybe 50 times over the rhythm backing track I created through and then I feel confident enough to play it with a group or in public.

Your learning curve for this may be a month or more to be able to do this. But your learning curve will decrease with time.

OH and here is Tony Rice playing blue railroad train live for your reference (you can really see his playing when he takes his break around the 3:00 minute mark).

Now, those 5 guys on stage are all pretty much prodigies with their respective instruments, make no mistake about it, all of their lives from the age of 5 or 6 has been dedicated to playing an instrument and they all are disciplined in multiple genre's so don't think for one minute that these guys just fell off the turnip truck like you and I.

EDIT ADD:

On Fatigue:

It's pretty common for folks at your level to put a damn "strangle hold" on an instrument as you have not developed the forearm muscles, strengthened your fingers, etc. so once you get your technique down you will find that you will be able to fret some easier or "lighter", this will increase your playing time. It's almost like a runner training for a 20 mile marathon who has never ran before....gonna take a lot of time doing 1-3 miles a day in order to work up to 20 miles at once..will take a year or maybe two to condition their body....you should expect the same thing to happen over time in conditioning your hands/arms/fingers in playing an instrument.