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geardaddy

(24,926 posts)
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:48 AM Jan 2015

UKIP: Fly Union Jacks over Welsh schools to ‘reassert’ Britishness

http://dailywales.net/2015/01/22/ukip-fly-union-jacks-over-welsh-schools-to-reassert-britishness/
snip
The culture spokesperson for UKIP wants all British schools to fly the Union Flag to help ‘reassert’ Britishness.

The idea comes from Peter Whittle, a former stockbroker and failed Tory Party candidate, who would also like to see a reduction in the number of non-English languages taught in schools.

Whittle set out his views in an interview with the Guardian newspaper. He states:
“I would like to encourage schools to display the Union Jack. The time has come when we have got to draw together and reassert who we are.

“I don’t know about the anthem necessarily, but I would certainly like to see the Union Jack in schools. That’s not UKIP policy, that’s just what I would like to see.

“It is something that in America does make a difference. The old idea that the British don’t proclaim all of this stuff was born of another time.”


/snip

He also wants to limit the number of languages taught in schools.

The rest at link.
26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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UKIP: Fly Union Jacks over Welsh schools to ‘reassert’ Britishness (Original Post) geardaddy Jan 2015 OP
UKIP county councillor (former Tory) for 'benefit claimants' driving ban muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #1
Argh LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #19
Why doesn't he just say shenmue Jan 2015 #2
Yep, total dumb-ass. geardaddy Jan 2015 #3
Er..... T_i_B Jan 2015 #4
Yes, in place of the Welsh flag, not in addition to it. geardaddy Jan 2015 #5
Do all Welsh schools fly the Welsh flag already? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #7
I assumed he meant in place of. geardaddy Jan 2015 #9
Do you not think there would be a difference in perception Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #6
Should that difference in perception mean he shouldn't encourage it, then? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #8
Since you ask, do you think he should? Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #10
It becomes 'coercion' a long way beyond what he said, I think muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #12
I explained where I saw coercion coming in. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #13
To be honest, I think the writer in 'Daily Wales' is a fool, getting annoyed over nothing muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #15
I think the display of a Union Flag in an environment where children are compelled to attend, Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #16
Bollocks T_i_B Jan 2015 #23
"Bollocks" "idiotic" Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #24
I think in a big way... geardaddy Jan 2015 #21
Sectarian issue in Norhern Ireland T_i_B Jan 2015 #11
It's already very much a sectarian issue in parts of the Central Belt of Scotland, Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #14
Looking at the Independence referendum... T_i_B Jan 2015 #17
I think if you try to view the Referendum debate from what the London-based media Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #20
Update on that last point: Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #22
Obviously trying to imitate American culture... LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #18
Welll said, LB non sociopath skin Jan 2015 #25
Maybe they should go back to Turbineguy Jan 2015 #26

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
1. UKIP county councillor (former Tory) for 'benefit claimants' driving ban
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jan 2015
A UKIP member has produced a leaflet calling for all "benefits claimants" to be banned from driving to free up space on the roads.

Lynton Yates said they should catch a bus instead, while cyclists should "go back to the pavements".

Mr Yates published the leaflet as part of a canvassing campaign for the general election, but UKIP has now suspended his candidature.
...
Mr Yates, who remains a Leicestershire county councillor for UKIP, also stated in the leaflet that he would send prisoners to overseas jails to reduce costs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30931266


(Former Conservative Mr Yates)

LeftishBrit

(41,203 posts)
19. Argh
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 04:48 PM
Jan 2015

So he regards benefit claimants the way the Saudis regard women? Also won't this result in overcrowding on buses; but I suppose he thinks only peasants take buses!

As regards the other idea - what makes him think that other countries want to house a bunch of British criminals?! This is no longer the 19th century, and we can't just send people off to Van Diemen's Land!

T_i_B

(14,735 posts)
4. Er.....
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 04:40 AM
Jan 2015

.....He wants the Union Jack flying over all British schools. Not just Welsh ones.

Sorry to be the one to prick the Welsh parochial bubble here.

It's about the least insane of his proposals if I'm honest.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
7. Do all Welsh schools fly the Welsh flag already?
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jan 2015

Is that a rule, or just that they all do it without anyone telling them to?

I don't see anything, either in the 'Daily Wales' piece, or the Guardian article, about it being 'in place of' any existing flags. Where did you get that bit from?

In fact, he only want to 'encourage' flying the union flag. He didn't say he'd force it (and it's not UKIP policy either). Are you saying it's bad for him to even encourage flying the country's flag? Is the UK really that bad?

geardaddy

(24,926 posts)
9. I assumed he meant in place of.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:02 PM
Jan 2015

My mistake. I also didn't think it was just "encouraging"

I'll retract my statement on the flag.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
6. Do you not think there would be a difference in perception
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jan 2015

between display of the Union Flag in an English school, and display of it in a Welsh, Scottish, or Irish school?

Or is this an example of an English parochial bubble?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
8. Should that difference in perception mean he shouldn't encourage it, then?
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:51 PM
Jan 2015

Should people only make suggestions if they're sure that 100% of people will agree?

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
10. Since you ask, do you think he should?
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jan 2015

And when does a suggestion become coercion? And when does disagreeing with a suggestion for cultural reasons warrant an accusation of living in a "parochial bubble"?

The Union Flag has different connotations for different people, for a variety of reasons, as does any national flag.

I actually don't recall any flags on display in school when I was brought up in Wales. I don't see that a school's choice to display a culturally charged piece of cloth on its premises, with the connotations of coercion displaying it in such a diciplined milieu would have implied, would have done anything for social cohesion - in fact, I could see it having done the opposite in the mixed-nationality environment where I was brought up. I've since lived in England for about a decade, and currently live in Scotland, and have done for about 25 years, so I do have some experience of how different people can perceive these things.

Especially at the moment, in Scotland the display of a Union Flag versus a Saltire can be rather inflammatory, as the George Square riots after the Referendum showed.

I'd imagine in Northern Ireland, it might be even more inflammatory, depending on the locality.

This is the case for people whom this UKIP twerp would have a hard time arguing aren't actually British, as their ancestry on these islands often stretches back further than his. How it would be received by those who have arrived on these shores more recently from different locales, at one or more generations' remove, is a whole other matter.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
12. It becomes 'coercion' a long way beyond what he said, I think
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jan 2015
“For example, I would like to encourage schools to display the union jack. The time has come when we have got to draw together and reassert who we are. I don’t know about the anthem necessarily, but I would certainly like to see the union jack in schools. That’s not Ukip policy, that’s just what I would like to see.

“It is something that in America does make a difference. The old idea that the British don’t proclaim all of this stuff was born of another time, rather a patriarchal one you could say actually … I think the Tory romantic idea (about not flying flags) is that this is all a bit vulgar and beneath the salt.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/22/ukip-fly-union-jack-at-schools

I don't see that displaying a flag is 'coercion'. You're in a state school, and it's the flag of the state. I'd think it would be fine for a school to fly the Welsh dragon, or the Scottish saltire, alongside or instead of it. Flags are, sadly, a source of hatred in Northern Ireland, and anything you do with them there on state premises has to be part of the ongoing argument they have about them.

I suspect that immigrants would think flying a state flag in a state school is fine.

Bolton council votes for schools to fly union flag and sing national anthem

Schools in Bolton will be encouraged to fly the union flag and sing the national anthem in assemblies to foster patriotism in the young after the council voted overwhelmingly in favour of the idea.

The motion was proposed by Conservative councillor Mudasir Dean, who said he was inspired by his grandfather, who became a "true English gentleman" after settling in Bolton from India in the 1920s.

Dean's detractors claimed the initiative was a cynical ploy to win votes in next month's council elections, where they say he is likely to face a tough fight in a predominantly white ward against a former Tory colleague who has defected to the UK Independence party (Ukip).

His motion, passed by 34 votes in favour with 11 abstentions and four against on Wednesday night, read: "This council, via the office of the director of children's services, would like to encourage our schools (primary and secondary) to fly the union flag in our school grounds throughout the borough and encourage them to include the national anthem as part of school assemblies.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/17/bolton-council-votes-schools-fly-union-flag-sing-national-anthem

That's in a Labour-controlled council.

I'm not convinced it would help much, but I don't think it's a problem suggesting it.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
13. I explained where I saw coercion coming in.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jan 2015

It's a school. It has rules. It's supposed to model behavior. You stand or sit at assemblies and are subjected to what the school decides is fit to expose you to.

Do you think a "suggestion" from a local council as you quoted above is merely an idle idea that's been tossed around, or is it likely to excite division - even the council was split on this decision, with 34 in favour and 15 opposed or abstaining - when people in local communities argue about it, and people look to see which schools are complying with this "suggestion," possibly egged on by the media? And I've no idea what it being a Labour-contgrolled council has to do with anything - from what I can see, so far Labour in England's been almost as craven in the face of UKIP as the Tories.

Your mention of "You're in a state school, and it's the flag of the state." doesn't really address the perception of people who aren't English - and by the way, what about the St George's flag in English schools? Coupled with the issue of an anthem, it's even more complex. Welsh has a well-established national anthem of its own, "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau." Scotland doesn't have an official one, though there's continual debate about some contenders.

Many Welsh - and in my experience, perhaps to a progressively lesser extent, Scottish and Irish people, depending on their sectarian history - have few problems identifying as both Welsh, for instance, and British. And coincidentally European. Others choose one or the other. I see it as a question of geographical fact. But the question of which state people identify with isn't a simple one for those the likes of UKIP might consider "indigenous," let alone those it so often scapegoats. You acknowledge how charged a flag can be in Ireland. Why choose such a potentially charged issue as a rallying point when it's more likely to be divisive?

The same UKIPper whose stance you appear to be trying to defend also said about language in the UK:

Only very recently, it was put forward that there are so many different languages in our schools and isn’t it a wonderful thing?

“Well, I see that as: how can you say that is wonderful? I see that as a barrier to social progress and a barrier to social cohesion.

“There has been an emphasis too much on keeping people in separate boxes and keeping them apart.”


I was brought up bilingual in English and Welsh. Welsh is an indigenous language in the UK, like Gaelic. It's taught in schools, even more so now than when I was schooled. I don't think there's any evidence that it's a barrier to social progress and social cohesion. There were strong efforts to suppress it in the past, which still rankle among native Welsh speakers, because it's a significant aspect of Welsh culture for them. It did me no harm to be exposed to more than one language growing up, in fact there's strong evidence that it does good things to the wiring of young people's brains. I don't think it did anything but good in opeing me up to perceptions, albeit on a less extreme scale, of how other minorities might experience life in the UK. And my English is good enough that I've been able to make a living almost purely on the strength of it for thirty-odd years!

Are you really buying into this casually expressed UKIP baloney, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
15. To be honest, I think the writer in 'Daily Wales' is a fool, getting annoyed over nothing
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:34 PM
Jan 2015
Your mention of "You're in a state school, and it's the flag of the state." doesn't really address the perception of people who aren't English - and by the way, what about the St George's flag in English schools?

It addresses the perception of non-English people as much as English people. The state is the UK, and, as you point out, there's a St. George's flag for England.

If you think you explained where 'coercion' come in, then it seems to me you think the sight of a union flag is 'coercive'. If so, I disagree, completely. I don't think 'division' would be 'excited'; that choice of words implies people taking it as a major issue, and I don't think most people would. And those that did should calm down and get a sense of perspective. I mentioned, as did The Guardian, that it's a Labour-controlled council to point out it's not just a question of "only UKIP nutters would think of such a thing".

You acknowledge how charged a flag can be in Ireland. Why choose such a potentially charged issue as a rallying point when it's more likely to be divisive?

Because we don't want people to behave like Northern Ireland. I don't think the union jack is divisive. It's not a cure-all for alienation from the state, but I don't think that it's unreasonable to suggest it flies in schools.

His remarks about language are different; I suspect that he's forgotten about Welsh and Gaelic, and is talking about languages from outside of Britain. I think all schools should be trying to get everyone up to a good standard in English, and Welsh and Gaelic where there's a local desire; how much is done to teach children in other languages because they speak none of those well is tricky, but I'd say it should only be seen as a temporary measure for each child.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
16. I think the display of a Union Flag in an environment where children are compelled to attend,
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jan 2015

such as a school assembly hall, is precisely an example of coercion. Sure, their parents could withdraw them from school assembly if they disagreed with it (as happened with Roman Catholic kids I grew up with, who weren't allowed to be exposed to our prayers and hymn singing), but then that's an example of physical division, isn't it?

And next you're going to tell me the St George's flag isn't a charged symbol for many after years of misappropriation by the BNP and their fellow travelers?

I don't have particularly good feelings about the Union Flag, and I'm aware that a not insignificant number of others have stronger feelings than I do about it. Making me feign some sort of respect for it as a kid certainly wouldn't have improved that. If anyone tells me that makes me less than British, then I'll laugh at them. But then I don't look particularly "Other" at first glance, and I have generations-long roots in the UK, so I have that comfortable luxury. There are others, who have every right to live here on any terms they wish as long as they break no laws, who don't have that luxury. They can embrace it as an emblem if they wish, but they shouldn't be made to feel like it's some sort of loyalty test.

As for a sense of perspective, I made a couple of casual comments on this thread which have ballooned into some sort of grand debate about a stupid utterance by UKIP's cultural representative with two people whom I assume to be English (and my apologies if that's a wrong assumption), so you know ...

T_i_B

(14,735 posts)
23. Bollocks
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jan 2015
And next you're going to tell me the St George's flag isn't a charged symbol for many after years of misappropriation by the BNP and their fellow travelers?


So basically what you are saying is that it's OK for the Scots and the Welsh to be proud of themselves, but not the English.

It's idiotic attitudes like this that play into the far right's hands. Not to mention misinterpreting a statement that was clearly about the whole of Britain.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
24. "Bollocks" "idiotic"
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 06:00 PM
Jan 2015

You've resorted to the "So basically what you're saying ..." argument. Always a winner. Put words in your own mouth, because those aren't mine.

Yeah, right, the issue of flags isn't divisive. I'm convinced, right enough. Is there any point in continuing this discussion?


geardaddy

(24,926 posts)
21. I think in a big way...
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 05:22 PM
Jan 2015

the Union flag is something most Welsh people don't think represents them. There is no representation in the flag for Wales. There is for England, Scotland, and Ireland, but not Wales. And I know there are historical reasons for this, but it's a sticking point for a lot of Welsh people.

T_i_B

(14,735 posts)
11. Sectarian issue in Norhern Ireland
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jan 2015

Much less of an issue anywhere else. And I don't think that Scots or Welsh nationalists making it into a sectarian issue is a good idea.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
14. It's already very much a sectarian issue in parts of the Central Belt of Scotland,
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jan 2015

so I think you need to spend some time in that part of Scotland before you opine on that.

Being perceived as imposing it, via "suggestion," back-of-a-fag-packet UKIP toying with its party platform, or any other means, is only likely to make it a sectarian issue where it isn't now!

T_i_B

(14,735 posts)
17. Looking at the Independence referendum...
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 03:19 PM
Jan 2015

The central belt in Scotland voted no to separating from the rest of Britain. It was only a few areas of Glasgow and Dundee that voted yes.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
20. I think if you try to view the Referendum debate from what the London-based media
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 04:51 PM
Jan 2015

have covered, you're never going to get a balanced view. It's far more nuanced, and the whole political complexion of Scotland, even in areas that voted No, has changed since the Referendum - just look at any recent Scottish polls, where the SNP are well ahead of Labour.

It has only a tangential relation to sectarianism as an issue, which is an extreme example of the divisions - not one that can be ignored, but neither should it be exaggerated. Most folks, like me, look at the track record of the SNP and see them as a left-of-center party trying to do its best for our interests. It's nothing to do with anti-Englishness, despite hotheads and spats on both sides, it's a reaction against the overwhelming influence and priorities of the current state of Westminster, and you don't have to be Scottish to take exception to those. If the Referendum was held tomorrow, you might be surprised at the result after all the prevaricating and backtracking about the supposed "Vow" set out by Gordon Brown and signed off on by Cameron not long before the vote, which was supposed to guarantee Devo Max in return for a No result.

Some folks in my village who have a property of a size that allows a flagpole fly the Saltire, some fly the Union Flag (since this where the whole conversation began). Some take no notice beyond it being another household decoration, some shrug as they pass by, some will nod in approval at one or other, for the great majority it's not a big deal, at worst another eccentricity among many in a small commnunity.

It's different in parts of Ayrshire (Unionist country, by and large, and somewhere my normally unperturbable American Roman Catholic wife finds uncomfortable to travel through), and varies from district to district in big conurbations like Glasgow, often tied to football club allegiances - Celtic (traditionally Catholic) versus Rangers (traditional Protestant), for instance. We have Orange Marches even around here, a major one taking place without incident in our nearest sizeable town only last year, which wasn't at all welcome to the local populace, who aren't really sectarian at all.

But take a look at a few images from immediately after the Referendum, which illustrate what flags can bring people to do.

Yes supporters had been in the habit of gathering in George Square in Glasgow, generally peaceably, in the run-up to the vote. It became a focal point, as it had been in the days of John McLean.



There'd been a few faceoffs between Yes and No supporters immediately before the Referendum, though they never came to much other than a bit of posturing on both sides. But after the No vote, Yes voters gathered again that evening, quite subdued at the result. But there'd been mobilization by Unionists (I won't label them No voters as I don't believe they're representative), some of them far right to say the least, swelling their numbers with thugs shipped in from south of the border who weren't averse to Nazi salutes. Having tanked up in some of the local bars, they converged on George Square, where some ugly scenes resulted, including running battles along neighbouring streets - basically a football riot without the excuse of the football:





POLICE said last night they were confident of tracing more people after making 11 arrests following “ugly” scenes at a violent pro-Union demonstration in Glasgow on Friday.

Officers set up an incident room to examine “valuable” CCTV evidence as SNP councillors criticised them for not acting more quickly to contain the disorder that broke out just hours after the Scottish independence referendum result was announced.

Police Scotland said arrests were for disorder, breach of the peace and vandalism, after people were attacked or threatened by the 700-strong mob who set off flares in the city’s George Square, where peaceful Yes rallies were held during the referendum campaign.

An estimated 150 police, some on horseback, were drafted in to separate the Union-­flag waving demonstrators – some of whom were members of the extreme right-wing Scottish Defence League – from independence supporters.


It was epitomized for many by scenes involving a couple of young women - sisters, as it turned out - being manhandled by some of these thugs:





The sisters were arrested, and we've yet to hear whether they'll need to attend court to face charges of "interfering with the policing" of the demonstration, the original basis for their arrests. As far as we know, the police are still working on tracking down some of the "Unionists" who were the instigators of the rioting. I've no idea whether the git who was wrestling that Saltire from that young woman is among them.

So, as you'll see, flags can be a bit of an emotive issue, up here at least.

Denzil_DC

(7,221 posts)
22. Update on that last point:
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:36 AM
Jan 2015
Sisters Sarah and Sophie Johnson, ages 20 and 16, were in George Square on the night of the 19 September 2014 when British nationalists caused widespread disorder resulting in 20 arrests.

The Johnsons were threatened by the crowd forcing the police to intervene. They chose to stay in the square only for the police to arrest them on the grounds of ‘obstruction’.

In a statement to CommonSpace regarding the case, the Procurator Fiscal said: "After full and careful consideration of the specific circumstances of the case and the available evidence, the Procurator Fiscal instructed that there should be no criminal proceedings."

https://commonspace.scot/articles/106/scottish-independence-protesters-cleared-of-all-charges-after-george-square-mayhem

LeftishBrit

(41,203 posts)
18. Obviously trying to imitate American culture...
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 04:42 PM
Jan 2015

Flags simply don't have the same connotation in the UK as in the USA, where the flag is practically worshipped by some people. Except during sporting events, most people don't display flags.

Given the above, and compared with some of UKIP's other ideas, this appears relatively harmless; but it doesn't make much sense, either.

non sociopath skin

(4,972 posts)
25. Welll said, LB
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 07:20 AM
Jan 2015

I do not remember ever seeing the Union Jack hoisted or hearing the National Anthem sung during my schooldays in the 50s and 60s. It's not part of our way of doing things, not since the end of the Empire, anyway. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

And if we need any proof of how patriotic symbols are as likely to divide as to unite, the conversation above could serve as a helpful example ....

The Skin

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