Talk me down. Please!!!

[alcina]

So last week I bought a Dell Inspiron 11 3000 Series notebook. Since its delivery on Tuesday, I have been on the phone with tech support for over 10 hours. About half of that was billing issues, but the rest is hardware and software problems.

As I type this, I'm on my third hour with a very polite man with a strong accent, who is trying his best to figure out why my computer can detect that my external hard drive is plugged in, but it doesn't recognize it in the list of files.

He first tried to claim that the drive was defective. Since I'd already used it multiple times, I knew this wasn't the case. He finally believed me. He then said that it could be a problem with the port. I told him that I'd already tested all the USB ports with a thumb drive, and they all worked just fine. The thumb drive was fully readable.

He then ran some diagnostics and said that the problem was that there were "numerous virus threats" and they were preventing the O/S from recognizing any external drives. I reminded him about the thumb drive, which made him reconsider. I also wondered about these "threats," since I'd barely used the computer and had, as far as I knew, not downloaded anything. On top of that, it was shipped with an antivirus program. Sigh. But he followed this path and ran his own remote virus software and made whatever repairs he believed needed to be made.

As of now, he has repeatedly installed drivers, run diagnostics, restarted the computer, had me unplug, replug, unplug, replug the drive. I, on the other hand, have used the time to log into my old computer and change all my passwords. F**k.

I'm within my 30 day return window, though because I'm in Canada, it looks like they might charge me a fee to return it. I have to check on this. However.....

Is this what I can continue to expect from a Dell/Windows 8.1 machine? My previous computer was a Mac, and I haven't used a PC in about 5 years. But I've never before had this much trouble.

Another burning question: Now that the Dell agent has had remote access to my computer, can I ever really trust that it's secure?

Thank you for listening to my rant, and thank you for any suggestions you may have.

[gvstn]

1. If you hit the Windows key and the X key at the same time

And then choose Disk Management. In that window look at the graph section, what does it say about your external drive?

What does it say in the section under Disk #? Such as Basic and/or Online.
What does it say to the right as far as size, NTFS, Healthy?

[alcina]

2. Thank you for replying!

I don't know how to capture the image, so please bear with me.

Disk 0: Is the notebook's hard drive C, which is all healthy.

There's also a Disk 1:
Basic
465.76 GB
Online
200 MB Health (EFI System Partition)
465.44 GB Healthy (Primary Partition)
128 MB Unallocated

The external drive is a Seagate Slim for Mac, model SRD00F1, which MS list as Windows 8.1 compatible.

[gvstn]

4. Were these files written on a MAC?

I'm asking because I think although MAC can use FAT32 file system, I believe the default is something else that Windows can't read.

Directly to the right of where it shows the 465.44 gb partition it should tell you the file system type. In the picture above it is NTFS--what does yours show?

[alcina]

5. Yes

But the drive is supposed to be compatible with both Mac and Windows, without any additional formatting. So even if the actual files aren't readable (though they should be since they're just docs), shouldn't the drive at least appear in the list of files?

[gvstn]

6. It won't show in the list of files unless it is recognized as formatted.

Your old computer is a MAC and the drive shows up there? Does the MAC tell you the file system format? FAT32 or HFS?
How much of that 465gb is actually used for files (is a lot of it empty or is most of it used)?

One clarification is the external HD is compatible with either MAC or PC because it is just a drive. However, MAC doesn't like to read NTFS file system and PC does not like to read MAC proprietarty file system HFS/HFSX. Both types of computer will read FAT32 filesystem. All externals used to be pre-formatted to FAT32 for ease of use between the two types of computers. As external sizes got above 1TB I believe they went to another formatting option but am not sure of the details.

[alcina]

7. The drive works fine on the Mac

There's a lot of space -- 370GB free out of 500GB total.

Using the disk utility on the Mac, the only thing I can see called "Format" says "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)".

I can't find anything that says either NTFS or HFS or HFSX, or even FAT32. (Sorry. I'm only barely computer literate these days.)

[gvstn]

8. Let's see if someone familiar with MACs can jump in.

I don't want to give bad advice.

I think the simplest thing to do (if you have 130gb free on your MAC harddrive) would be to copy all those files back to your MAC hard drive. Then connect the external to the Windows computer and format it to exFAT filesystem (this erases everything on the drive which is why you make the copy). The drive should then be readable by both computers and you can copy the files back to the drive.

I'd like to make sure that I am not misdiagnosing the problem. And am trying to think of which program would be the simplest to use to determine the file system being used on the external. If it already exFAT or FAT32 then we have a different problem on our hands although the above solution would fix that as well that might be an easier way. I'll see if I can find a program that will at least recognize HFS, the one I have only recognizes Windows and Linux file systems so that won't tell us definitively which one is being used.

EDIT: I see it says MAC OS Extended I think that is the problem. Windows can't read that file system.

[alcina]

9. I'm still having trouble with some basics here

According to MS, this drive is supposed to be compatible with "No Action Required." Since I didn't reformat it for the Mac, it still seems that I should be able to at least move files FROM the notebook to the drive, even if I can't move them from the Mac (to the drive) to the notebook.

In any case, thank you again for your help. Since you seem to be knowledgeable about Windows, any thoughts on anti-virus software? If I keep this machine, I probably need to get something better than Windows Defender and the McAfee stuff that's currently on there.

[gvstn]

11. I think because the drive was labeled as "for MAC" on the box

It may have been formatted into Apple's preferred filesystem. MACs work best with their own filesystem as does Windows work best with NTFS rather than the older FAT file systems. For human users we wouldn't notice any slowdown during normal use only when copying large files. It seems clear from your previous post that the drive is formatted to Mac OS Extended (Journaled)=HFS+ filesystem which Windows refuses to read.

Just for a basic explainer. A HDD is partitioned into smaller pieces to help keep things separate. You can see this in your screenshot where your recovery partition data is separate from your OS data. It keeps things tidy and is safer should something damage one partition the others are still viable. Each partition is formatted to a particular filesystem. A filesystem is basically just an index more than anything else. MS refuses to acknowledge other maker's filesystems/indexes which is why it doesn't even give a message such as unknown filesystem but just ignores the drive instead. Both Apple and MS know this game of not giving full support to the others filesystem causes problems for users but it must be a bitter grudge.

Mac OS Extended (Journaled)= HFSplus file system which Windows refuses to recognize.

There appears to be a free utility that will allow Windows to "see" the drive and you to copy files to your Windows HDD and then work with them but it all has to be done within the utility rather than an Explorer window. This could get annoying over time if you are constantly switching back and forth between machines. HFSExplorer (don't worry about installing Java but disabling the browser addon is probably still wise) http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/4-ways-read-mac-formatted-drive-windows/ should work. I am not sure if after changing documents in Windows you can copy them back to the external. One of the paid software could probably do better.

On my last comment, I still think that converting to exFAT might be a good solution. It is apparently slower but that would only be a concern when copying large files. If you don't have enough space on your MAC HDD then possibly non-destructively shrinking the large 465gb partition of the external to say half size and then creating a new exFAT partition in the newly created unallocated space might be an option. Then you would have two partitions one formatted for MAC and one formatted for both MAC and PC. Are you running OS X 10.5 or later? (There is apparently a built in utility for OS X 10.5 or later) There are other third-party apps that should be able to do it if you are running an older OS version.

****
On antivirus, I am terrible. I only started running one about 5 years ago out of embarrassment for not being more vigilant. I run Eset NOD32 but it is never most positively reviewed. It usually comes in around 6th place. I like it because it doesn't constantly give me popup warnings. Kaspersky is probably the absolute best but I found them too annoying with their constant warnings.

I know others in this group have paid more attention to ratings and reviews. I believe that there are a couple of free ones that are rated higher than ESET. It is just a matter of which ones make you see ads or such to get the protection and which ones don't. I would start a new thread and ask about antivirus although most say what Windows 8 comes with is adequate. McAfee is something I would avoid at this point. It is just adware/advertising as far as I know. Definitely don't pay for a full subscription.

***
Lastly, I don't envy you jumping back into Window with 8.1 It is very confusing. I tested it out for a month or two and despite performance gains, I just found it too confusing. I'm sticking to Win7 which works the way I want it to work.
I wouldn't give up on your new computer but I admit I would find every little fault aggravating because the interface isn't quite "there" yet. But your problem with this HDD is fixable and I believe related to incompatible formatting.

[alcina]

12. Maybe I should just return the drive

I think I'll be less frustrated if I move my files via the thumb drive or Dropbox and worry about the backup disk later. Path of least resistance....

Thanks again for the help and the encouragement. My partner said that I'll probably be satisfied with the notebook once I get past these "quirks." I'm worried I'll never get past them, that there will always be another glitch or inexplicable shutdown. At this point, what would satisfy me most is finding a new Macbook for $600.

[w0nderer]

15. if the file system (format) says mac os x extended (journaled)

then it's formatted for mac proprietary filesystem (most like hfs+)

your mileage may vary on these, never used them, i just copied over network the files i need moved

programs to access hfs+ under windows
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/4-ways-read-mac-formatted-drive-windows/

freeware one above
http://www.catacombae.org/hfsexplorer/

another way would be hook drive into mac, then turn on sshd/sftpd on mac
and use winsftp on windows to log into the mac remotely and move over network (sucky and slow but works usually)


hope this helps

[alcina]

16. Thanks

I did figure out how to connect the two machines remotely, so that would have been an option. However, this morning the Dell machine wouldn't wake up (again -- this happened a few days ago), so it's going back. They offered an exchange through support, but I have to wait until Monday to talk with someone about an actual return. I've got my fingers crossed that it won't be a problem.

If I decide to get another Windows machine, I think I'll just go through MS. That way, at least, I get the software support.

[alcina]

3. Best I could do for a screenshot

For some reason, I can't get a decent image to paste in here, but the link works:

https://flic.kr/p/qSFPn9

The drive IS plugged in, and the notebook seems to know this b/c is offers the option to eject it.

[Mnpaul]

13. Try assigning a drive letter

right click on the 465gb partition on disk 1. There should be an option to change the drive letter

[hobbit709]

14. Windows pretends Mac and Linux file systems don't exist. 8 supposedly does but it really doesn't.

It sees the drive but won't read the files.