Andrea Mitchell on msnbc just pumped the unconfirmed story about Oswaldo Paya

[flamingdem]

She's transparent.

Plus she said all four died - showing her staff is incompetent.

She said the car was pushed off the road and the implication is that the government did it.
But there is zero proof or time to have established any facts.

Then she went on to praise herself for interviewing Paya a decade ago.

No due diligence needed when it comes to Cuba just lie and everyone will believe you --
mostly because no one really cares but also because the right wing has this wrapped up
in the US media. And that group includes Andrea Mitchell.

[bluestateguy]

1. WHO?

I'm focused on Colorado right now.

[MADem]

2. Al Jazeera implied it too, in their headline. They put the whole car crash thing in quotes.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/07/201272314520800791.html

Apparently some folks are smelling a rat...

ON EDIT--It looks like the deceased's daughter is the source of the contention:

On Sunday, Paya's daughter, Rosa Maria Paya, told CNN that her family believed a second car had struck the vehicle her father was traveling in, forcing it off the road.
Cuban Harold Cepero also died from the crash. Two others were in the car, it said: Swedish citizen Aron Modig and Spaniard Angel Carromero, who suffered injuries from the impact.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/23/world/americas/cuba-dissident-death/index.html

[flamingdem]

3. They need to investigate clearly, but meanwhile the Miami Herald published false photos of the crash

See here on a blog:

http://lapupilainsomne.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/el-herald-de-miami-utiliza-foto-falsa-en-campana-sobre-accidente-de-paya/#comment-18677

False photo now withdrawn:
?w=640&h=480

[MADem]

4. Well, the lefty GUARDIAN is running with the daughter's 'murder' accusation, too.

I'd be checking the brake lines and the steering, if I could...

Cuban dissident Oswaldo Payá's death 'no accident', claims daughter


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/oswaldo-paya-death-no-accident

...Details of the crash remain sketchy and contentious. Rosa María Payá, the dissident's daughter, said the vehicle was deliberately rammed.

"There was a car trying to take them off the road, crashing into them at every moment. So we think it's not an accident,'' she told the Spanish service of CNN. "They wanted to do harm and they ended up killing my father." She said the family were seeking more details.

She's quite definitive in her accusations, and of course, friends of the Castros say "Tisk, tisk don't be silly."

I wasn't there, so I dunno. But this isn't Andrea Mitchell talking--this is the daughter of the dead man making the accusations.

[Lionessa]

5. I think the thing is....

it's one thing to say there's been an accusation. It's a whole other thing to present it as fact.

To me the OP isn't saying AM is wrong, but simply that no one knows yet, and that's what the bottom line should be.

[flamingdem]

7. Yes, that's what gets to me. Plus, she is using the tragedy to advertise

herself as an "insider" who gets this hot info and interviewed this dissident. Oh Andrea on the side of freedom fighters...

[MADem]

9. I wasn't watching, so I can't comment on what AM said, specifically. I am only speaking to the

speculation surrounding this story. The source IS the daughter of the dead man, according to all reports I have seen, and his family is making some noise.

It's not like the Evil Americans invented the story--they, and Guardian, BBC, AJ and a zillion other outlets are simply quoting the daughter, who is saying the car was rammed and that caused it to leave the road.

[Lionessa]

12. "simply quoting the daughter," my ass. And that's the point.

[MADem]

17. Oh good grief, get off the high horse--you weren't there EITHER.

She was quoting CNN en Espanol, and they were quoting the daughter, whose source was the people who survived the crash.

Before I grab hammer and nails to crucify Mrs. Greenspan, I'd like to know what she actually said.

Most of the papers reporting this are quoting the daughter, who, in some reports, cites the other passengers in the car as the source of the "pushing" or "ramming" of the vehicle.

But Rosa María Payá, the dissident leader’s daughter, said their car was struck by another vehicle. In a sound bite on Payá’s official website, she said, “The information we received from the boys in the car with him is that a car was trying to push them off the road, ramming them at every moment. So we think — we are convinced — that they wanted to harm them and ended up killing my father.”

In a statement Monday, the Christian Liberation Movement said “the circumstances of these deaths have not been cleared up and are open to hypothesis’’ and it demanded a “transparent’’ investigation.

In an unusual step, Granma, the official newspaper of the Communist Party of Cuba, reported the deaths Monday on page 6 and said the crash was under investigation.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/23/2908436/cuban-dissidents-call-for-transparent.html#storylink=cpy

[flamingdem]

16. The daughter was in Havana

and she believes a similar thing happened to him recently. Again, why? He poses no threat.

[MADem]

28. Who knows why? Maybe he obtained some information that some found damaging?

We might never know, since he's dead now.

[flamingdem]

6. Here's a curiosity that won't be reported - right wing connections

The car was rented by one of the Europeans who survived (probably wearing seatbelts that is not a Cuba custom by the way, the two Cubans in the car died only). They were both from the right wingy Christian Democrat parties in Spain and Sweden. The Spanish guy is a self declared fascist.

It's a stretch to think the Cuban govt. could have engineered this accident in my opinion. I think that Paya was trying to revive his dissident career but he is not a threat in any way to the government. They might have had a tail on them but then it looks more like an accident. Cuba did not want this bad publicity, please see the logic of that that all news outlets refuse to do. Also, no one asks him why he's so far from his home in Havana.

So he gets these young men to go investigate the Cholera -- sensitive issue for the government - and someone drives who doesn't know the dangerous roads, a young guy, no worries about drinking and driving there really.

And now everyone jumps to conclusions, sees what they want to see. Many on the left have turned against Cuba.
Plenty of reasons to criticize but my point is always to see how the US right wing manipulates on Cuba and prevents
any positive change in a country that is not a threat to us and that has held out an open hand to better relations.

As someone wrote elsewhere: do you think Raul planted that tree they ran into?

[MADem]

10. Again, I'm not there--none of us are. Some reports I have read say that the daughter said

that the car was "rammed repeatedly" by another car that was tailing them.

I don't know what the facts are, here. No one does. Odds are, even if the guy was murdered, we'll never get a straight story out of anyone.

Raul may not have planted the tree, but it's not impossible that he might have sent along a few pals in a good heavy car with a powerful engine that were skilled at executing the "pit maneuver" (often seen during car chases during episodes of COPS) which can kill people in the pitted car--particularly if there's an embankment, or those pesky trees, planted by Raul or someone else.

Dissidents don't seem to live too long in Cuba.

[Lionessa]

13. And do you stop a sec to critically ask, "how would the daughter know that?"

Apparently she wasn't there, and she isn't seeming to say how she makes this assumption. Were they on the phone together or something? We don't know. Let's wait and find out and not go all emotional about a daughter and a conspiracy when there are no known facts yet.

[MADem]

18. Because--see upthread--the guys who survived the crash TOLD HER SO.

That's what she's saying.

Unless EVERYONE's lying save Raul...who wasn't there either?

[Lionessa]

22. But the guys can't speak for themselves? How bizarre.

And even if so, it's quite a leap to decide it was political and not personal or other. Some people just like to hate, I'm sorry you seem to be one when it comes to Castro, and that's exactly who these MSM's are geared toward and to further that hatred.

And lastly that means she doesn't know anything, she was told it by persons who may themselves be culpable of causing the crash. Hearsay at best.

[MADem]

24. I'd want to get out of the country before I opened my mouth if I were them.

It's not "hatred," it's just a knowledge that Castro is no saint and his island "democracy" is no democracy.

That's kind of what Paya was about.

[Lionessa]

25. Is any leader of any country a saint? Really, such naivete is just tiresome.

Bless your heart.

[MADem]

26. Bless YOUR heart. I never said other leaders were saints, you were the one who tried to

distract from my point with the "But that one did it TOO" excuse.

The subject isn't other leaders. Good effort, though.

[flamingdem]

14. It doesn't fit the importance of the dissident that they'd risk that, it's beyond logic

He is not a threat, and hasn't been for a decade if he ever was. I stick with the idea that it's not the Modus Operandi of the Cuban government to kill opponents, the contrary it's not bad for them to have a mature opponent like Paya who does NOT appeal to the youth there. Dengue fever (the case of Laura Pollin and many other Cubans btw) and car accidents in Cuba are pretty common. It's not Mission Impossible territory down there.

The right wants a martyr, it's just to frustrating to think the young driver had an accident (on those potholed poorly lit dangerous roads on a junket with two Cubans no doubt seatbeltless).

[MADem]

20. So the daughter is lying, and the passengers in the car are lying as well?

Why would they do that?

[flamingdem]

21. I have answers

Been reading.

1. Daughter: smart people are saying that she's trying to get all who admire him to wake up with her accusations. As I said he wasn't impactful lately. So the daughter is following his footsteps. What is being criticized is the same thing all along... that this was a GOOD GUY .. and he wanted peace .. but that the right wing is manipulating him as they did before into their martyr and that the TRUTH IS that they didn't want his Varela Project to succeed because that would mean peace with the United States. They don't want that. So the daughter wants one thing, and the usual suspects use that for their ends.

2. Europeans: probably the Spaniard driving. He has every reason to accuse someone else because otherwise he may be guilty of driving recklessly, or drunk and could end up in prison. The Spanish government is involved. The two Europeans were okay so they could have coordinated their stories or exaggerated or not but it's important to focus on the fact that this is NOT a good thing for the Cuban government and Pay posed no threat to them.

[MADem]

23. Are we sure that the driver didn't die as well? It sounds like two people were killed,

could the other guy have been driving? Or could Paya have been? Or was there another fellow, a hired driver, behind the wheel?

Paya died Sunday afternoon along with another dissident, Harold Cepero Escalante, in the crash in La Gavina, 500 miles (800 kilometers) east of the capital. Authorities said the driver of the rental car carrying Paya and Cepero lost control and struck a tree. Fellow passengers Jens Aron Modig, a Swedish citizen, and Angel Carromero, a Spaniard, were hospitalized with minor injuries and later released.

It was not immediately clear who was behind the wheel.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cuba-dissidents-mourn-activist-killed-car-crash-16838096#.UA2y7bTY-DY

I think there are more questions than answers at this stage.

[flamingdem]

32. The driver was Angel Carromero also the opposition says - it was a tree

I'll find a translation, but Cuban opposition has seen the tree and believes the government:

Sin embargo, la versión del gobierno fue avalada por la Comisión de Derechos Humanos, una entidad ilegal aunque tolerada por el gobierno comunista, que preside el disidente Elizardo Sánchez. "Les pedimos a dos colaboradores nuestros residentes en Bayamo que se trasladaran al sitio del accidente. Vieron el árbol donde chocaron (y), por el daño, recibido se ve que el impacto fue brutal y que no hubo otro vehículo involucrado", dijo Sánchez a la AFP.

[flamingdem]

8. The daughter wasn't there though

and is clearly emotional. I think they need to photograph the car - if there are marks from another vehicle hitting it that is one fact, if not then one has to doubt -- and note my post about the right wing Europeans who are the witnesses at this point.

[MADem]

11. You can do a pit maneuver and not leave a mark--all you have to do is "meet" the bumper on the

corner, and then give it the gas. Those guys on COPS do it all the time! Here's a guy who gets pitted repeatedly on a smooth flat highway, and keeps on keeping on--but there's nothing for him to go flying into, either:

[flamingdem]

15. That is a common movie trope, but it can turn out in hundreds of ways

and there's no logical reason they would have risked killing two Europeans or even Paya. What for?

[MADem]

19. Good question--what we don't know could well fill a book. Or a set of encyclopedias. nt

[Judi Lynn]

30. I guess that WAS a fake photo, taken in Cienfuegos!

Here's a map for the people who aren't acquainted with Cuban geography, me included:

[center] [/center]

Cienfuegos is hundreds of miles from Bayamo, which is in the southeast part of the country.

Typical, isn't it?

[flamingdem]

31. The accident happened near Bayamo on the way to Manzanillo

in the Eastern province of Granma. What I find interesting is that nobody is asking "What were they doing there?" -- that seems relevant since Paya is from Havana.

I think they were going to do an expose on the Cholera spread, based on fact or not who knows, Cuba says they have it under control and it would hurt them if there are people testifying that's not the case.

So why were the Europeans there? The USAID granma article makes it clear there is a connection, no doubt they were being funded for the trip to get dirt on the situation. But I haven't seen anywhere what they were up to in that area where carnival was cancelled this year.

[snappyturtle]

27. Now AMGreenspan will have something more to brag about in

those ridiculous ads the show hosts do a gazillion times an hour.

What ever happened to good old ad revenue? (I know...off subject.)

[longship]

29. Alan Greenspan is pumping the unconfirmed story of Oswald the rabbit.

Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit

Frankly, I prefer Bugs Bunny.

Wabbit season!

Duck season!

Wabbit season!

Wabbit season!

Duck season!

Shoot! Kablooie!