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flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:42 PM Jul 2012

Lies on Capitol Hill Cubans - Spaniard, Swede admit their errors to press re:Paya [English article]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/survivors-2nd-car-deadly-cuba-car-crash-16887387#.UBbYG0QVk7A

excerpt:
Carromero and Modig, members of center-right political parties in their home countries, entered Cuba on tourist visas but acknowledged working with dissidents. Modig said he first came to Cuba in 2009 to meet with dissidents, and on this trip they were to meet with Paya, give him 4,000 euros ($4,900) for his opposition work and help organize dissident political youth groups.

Cuba calls the government opponents "counterrevolutionaries" and accuses them of accepting foreign funding to undermine the Communist government.

Modig offered an apology for bringing money to the dissidents.

"I understand that these activities are not legal in Cuba and I would like to apologize for having come to this country to realize illicit activities," he said, according to a Spanish translation of his comments.

Cuban authorities have suggested that Carromero could face prosecution in relation to the crash.

---------

You could say the US policy is to blame for the death of this nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize

Spanish, will look for translation, basically the Swede admitted to bringing 6,000 from a Republican group that accepts USAID money to Paya. The Swede and the Spaniard confirm the accident story vs. the conspiracy theory invented by Paya's daughter about a second vehicle that pushed them off the road.

Busted. It's illegal to enter as a tourist to engage in political work in Cuba, worse if you bring 6 grand in for that.

http://www.capitolhillcubans.com/2012/07/update-on-castros-european-hostages.html

This post claims Castro is holding the Europeans as hostages, Loba going loca. UPDATE THIS (they don't want to)

La Loba = Ileana 'La Loba Feroz' Ros-Lehtinen head of House Foreign Affairs and right wingnut

25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Lies on Capitol Hill Cubans - Spaniard, Swede admit their errors to press re:Paya [English article] (Original Post) flamingdem Jul 2012 OP
So much for those pushing that he was done in on purpose here. dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #1
Yup, nice try, this really tore the lid off the right wing USAID connection flamingdem Jul 2012 #2
They should jail him like Alan Gross. joshcryer Jul 2012 #4
Why are you asking me? Just because I am right and you were wrong flamingdem Jul 2012 #5
Hey, I never said that was the case. joshcryer Jul 2012 #8
I think Carromero will have to serve time flamingdem Jul 2012 #9
And if he doesn't? joshcryer Jul 2012 #13
Then the Cuban govt. decided it was best to flamingdem Jul 2012 #14
We'll see. joshcryer Jul 2012 #15
I don't doubt for a minute that the Spaniard had an accident, the proof flamingdem Jul 2012 #16
I'm talking about the other allegations that the Spaniard was acting illegally. joshcryer Jul 2012 #18
You don't get it, still after all this effort discussing things tut tut flamingdem Jul 2012 #20
I'm fine with reporting on the press conference. joshcryer Jul 2012 #21
Show me a post where exactly that sentiment is expressed flamingdem Jul 2012 #22
There's a post with a woman holding up both thumbs... joshcryer Jul 2012 #23
That's La Loba, she's the one in congress responsible in my opinion flamingdem Jul 2012 #24
Link one post where someone did that. joshcryer Jul 2012 #3
I don't know which post D.Doodle refers to but your logic was that they were driven off the road flamingdem Jul 2012 #6
I only wanted to wait for more information. joshcryer Jul 2012 #7
I think it's too bad because Paya was a decent guy flamingdem Jul 2012 #10
I may have misinterpreted what you meant when you said dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #11
Oh, you assumed. I predicted that flamingdem wouldn't believe their account... joshcryer Jul 2012 #12
I'm a she by the way and have no particular reason to speculate about the penalty flamingdem Jul 2012 #17
My bad. I used singular they in my title... joshcryer Jul 2012 #19
It's a good idea the driver came clean about this accident. Judi Lynn Jul 2012 #25

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
2. Yup, nice try, this really tore the lid off the right wing USAID connection
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:03 PM
Jul 2012

just as the Cubans have been saying regarding Alan Gross etc. USAID money is getting these right wing foolz in trouble!

When will they learn. Tellin' ya. Now Angel Carramero says "just focus on getting me out of here" as if there is no penalty for killing two Cubans? (And subverting their system). Hope he likes rice and beans.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
5. Why are you asking me? Just because I am right and you were wrong
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:05 PM
Jul 2012

doesn't mean I have a direct connection to the Ministry of the Interior in La Habana!

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
8. Hey, I never said that was the case.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:03 PM
Jul 2012

And I said I'd believe the people if they admitted wrongdoing.

The question is now whether they jail this guy and if they don't, why not?

You're talking Alan Gross level charges here.

What makes this guy, someone who killed someone because of their negligence, immune?

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
9. I think Carromero will have to serve time
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:26 PM
Jul 2012

What I'm wondering is whether they'll charge him for the accident, the illicit political activities or both. I don't know their laws but I read he would get 1 to 10 years for vehicular manslaughter. Maybe about the same as here.

Gross had made many trips before they finally popped him. It's not like their security organization is that great really and they're pretty loose about letting people in. No doubt there are more of this type lurking around there.

By the time they arrested Gross he had made a half a million I believe on his USAID sourced contracts, something like that..

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
15. We'll see.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:27 PM
Jul 2012

I don't have a theory. But I do think that if all these allegations floating around about the guy he should be in prison. If he's not then maybe the allegations are propaganda.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
16. I don't doubt for a minute that the Spaniard had an accident, the proof
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:15 PM
Jul 2012

is documented very well and confirmed by the opposition leader Elizardo Sanchez. The crazies are even recognizing that it happened. You can't invent around these things there's too much forensic evidence plus the text messages sent to Sweden to the father that confirm there was no second car and they simply had an accident.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
18. I'm talking about the other allegations that the Spaniard was acting illegally.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:18 PM
Jul 2012

It's clear it was an accident and I don't know why it keeps being brought up except to revel in Paya's death (and before anyone says there's no revelry all the and all the pictures prove otherwise).

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
20. You don't get it, still after all this effort discussing things tut tut
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:34 PM
Jul 2012

1. It's being brought up because just today the news came out of what was said at the press conference.
2. The Swedish guy admitted to taking USAID sourced $ - this is my issue as an American citizen, I don't want to pay to kill people in Cuba via idiots like this right wing Angel.
3. I don't think people posted many pictures here, other sites from the right wing / conspiracy side were posting all kinds of misleading photos, La Loba is our anti-hero-mascot so she often appears
4. How could I feel revelry when this person was basically decent and trying to work for change in Cuba. It's really a shame and in the end he posed no threat and can't even be made into a martyr (though some might try).

If there is a sense of confirmation it's that some of us know the game by now. It's follow the right wing USAID money, the cretins from Miami in congress, the international right wing that was probably going to use and dump Paya ultimately. They dumped on him when he went to Miami and thought he was an agent.

And now this international right wing is responsible for funding and carrying out his death!
And the death of another dissident. It's shocking and shameful, I like Cubans and hate for this to happen to them.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
21. I'm fine with reporting on the press conference.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:46 PM
Jul 2012

I'm annoyed by the third / fourth Paya article that repeats the same thing, we know it was an accident, move on.

I'm fine with the admission by admission of taking USAID money, but it's unclear that it was illegal, even though the Swede admits illegality. Is he being arrested, charged? No, it's not clear.

People were clearly excited / happy with Paya's death, the emoticons and responses and "recs" showed it.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
22. Show me a post where exactly that sentiment is expressed
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:50 PM
Jul 2012

That's ridiculous, your interpretation skills leave out the fact that people don't like Cuba being bullied, some of us anyway, and sending people to undermine their government and then profitting from the fall out when your agent kills a decent guy, the happiness is that they are busted for who and what they are, opportunists and disgusting.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
23. There's a post with a woman holding up both thumbs...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:42 PM
Jul 2012

...it seems really out of place when we're talking about the death of someone...

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
24. That's La Loba, she's the one in congress responsible in my opinion
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:55 PM
Jul 2012

for the death of the Cubans. She's hardliner who thought Paya was too moderate because he spoke against the embargo. As did her buddies.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
6. I don't know which post D.Doodle refers to but your logic was that they were driven off the road
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:12 PM
Jul 2012

Actually it might have been Mika who posted about a conspiracy but kind of doubt he was endorsing it..

joshcryer (35,661 posts)
5. It's almost always good for a group when a dissidant is taken out.

View profile
I can't see any downsides because it throws a dent into the democracy project in Cuba. All you have to now do is replace Paya with a far right winger who wants to do stupid shit (like repatriate old property owners, etc) and it marginalizes the movement.

As I said, I'll wait for the witness reports once they're out of Cuba. If the reports say that it was just an accident on bad roads, then I will believe them. But I bet you dollars to donuts that if the reports say that they were driven off the road, chased, etc, you will say that they're right wing witnesses and can't be trusted.

BTW, if you really think the Varela Project went no where you should be reminded that one of its major goals was privatization. Cuba followed suit less than a decade later.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
10. I think it's too bad because Paya was a decent guy
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:28 PM
Jul 2012

but he was kind of dirty with US money -- and I don't know the facts but it does seem like the USAID dough touches any dissident who wants to survive.

Elizardo Sanchez seems like a more relevant opposition leader. Paya would have found a connection via the church there, they are working with Raul to change things. Too bad he wanted more for his own organization and took money from these clowns who killed him.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
11. I may have misinterpreted what you meant when you said
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:57 PM
Jul 2012

in the original post "Haha! I told you that you wouldn't believe their account. Fucking rich."



There's also reply 4 here : http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014173894#post4

There must be another OP on this somewhere too because I recall Judi mentioning the Swedish Embassy ?

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
12. Oh, you assumed. I predicted that flamingdem wouldn't believe their account...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:17 PM
Jul 2012

...in a thread and I said that I would believe them either way.

As I said, I'll wait for the witness reports once they're out of Cuba. If the reports say that it was just an accident on bad roads, then I will believe them. But I bet you dollars to donuts that if the reports say that they were driven off the road, chased, etc, you will say that they're right wing witnesses and can't be trusted.


Now apparently flamingdem believes this guy is being truthful. But he can't explain why someone who is paying the opposition and who killed someone is going to jail or not.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
17. I'm a she by the way and have no particular reason to speculate about the penalty
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:18 PM
Jul 2012

That's going on behind closed doors. There are international factors involved, a Cuban would go to prison if they killed two people and it was their fault. The Spaniard admitted he didn't see the time, according to their schedule they were driving around 90 miles an hour across the island, not all that unusual but after ten hours of that people make mistakes.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
19. My bad. I used singular they in my title...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:21 PM
Jul 2012

...but managed to use a gendered word in the body of the text.

Anyway, yes, he admitted to the accident. Not sure why it has to be repeated to me for the umpteenth time.

Judi Lynn

(160,219 posts)
25. It's a good idea the driver came clean about this accident.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 04:20 AM
Jul 2012

It would have been far too dirty for the right-wing to keep on howling the Cuban government had sent someone to run him off the road. These people stop at nothing.

I recall how obsessive they were at the old CNN US-Cuba relations message board. Those Miami guys are true sociopaths, with vicious attitudes.

Tremendous photo of La Loba Feroz. It actually flatters her. She has taken so many far worse ones. No doubt there are some floating about with dead democrats hanging helplessly in her jaws, just like snarlin' Lincoln Diaz-Balart.

It would probably not be that easy in the U.S. for a driver to be speeding, running into a tree, killing others, and then have people getting sniffy if the government apprehends him. I doubt he'd get by with it unless he were very wealthy, with friends in high places.

Thanks for the info. Saw it here first, clearly.

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