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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 12:41 AM Oct 2013

6 Sexist Things Women Say

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/6-sexist-things-girls-say/

1. “Chivalry is dead.”

2. “I refuse to date a man shorter than me.”
I do not mean to slice open issues of physical attraction, but what this tends to say to me is “this is an extremely shallow person.” Perhaps the reverse is “I refuse to date a girl with a cup size below C.” It imparts an unfair standard on short guys and tall girls.

3. “Any guy living with his parents is a loser.”
While not just deaf to the sort of financial issues which can put anyone back in their parents’ basement, it seems to me women are subjected to far less shame than men if their post-adolescence feels a bit too much like an extension of their adolescence. That said, the US Census found 59% of men ages 18-24 live with their parents, but the number is fairly similar with women of the same age, coming in at 50%.

4. “If women ran the world, there would be no war.”
First, I’d like to point out that organizations which have more diversity of any kind tend to function better. However, the idea that women would be more peaceful as Heads of State is fairly ridiculous. Margaret Thatcher, who passed away earlier this week, was infamous for her invasion of the Falkland Islands. There were plenty of female pharoahs in Ancient Egypt which waged war like few other nations. It’s true even further down the power structure; Lynndie England was a key player in the Abu Ghraib scandal and the (possibly mythical) Amazonian warriors actually could not marry until they had killed in battle. It is apparent, if given the opportunity, women could be as savage at waging war as men.

5. “All guys think about is sex.”
And all women think about is SHOPPING!! Am I right, guys?

6. “All men are animals.”
I am certainly not here to deny the very brutal reality of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, or rape. However, assuming every guy is looking to rape you is about as ridiculous as thinking any person of an ethnic minority is out to mug you. In fact, let’s just rule out any statement which begins with “all men” or “all women”, because that is the central point of this. Any movement meant to celebrate “equality” or “diversity” should do just that, not create an Us vs. Them mentality. Women around the world are subjected to injustices much larger than hearing something which offends them and those are certainly issues which demand attention. But always be prepared to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.

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6 Sexist Things Women Say (Original Post) Bonobo Oct 2013 OP
to be fair, technically, all men ARE animals. Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #1
How many animals can shave their balls? Major Nikon Oct 2013 #2
See, that sort of thing never gets old. Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #3
Meh... I "get" it, but I don't trouble myself about it too much... nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #4
If I'm going to get wrapped around an axle about sexism... lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #5
I can mostly agree with that. And while I may deplore the existence of a shallow, mindless culture nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #6
Some problems are the result of misandry. Some are not. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #9
"Disproportionate share of harm"? Maybe not overall, but a great many men are being harmed greatly. nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #11
Do you think that men should be equally represented on college campuses? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #13
Do I? I suppose so, in theory. But why is that one particular number/statistic so important? nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #14
Let's explore this. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #15
As I said, all the issues you've raised are real and legitimate, I just don't think they're nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #18
I'm not suggesting that those things represent misandry. I am suggesting that they represent bias. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #19
Okay. Not sure I see it that way, but I get what you mean at least. nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #20
Are you willing to argue the reverse? Major Nikon Oct 2013 #16
It is difficult to quantify, I admit. All I can tell you is that I don't feel disadvantaged, at all, nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #17
There are those who are disadvantaged on both sides of the gender divide Major Nikon Oct 2013 #21
The Kyriarchy Hurts Men pitbullgirl1965 Oct 2013 #23
Thank you for your contribution and I totally agree. nt Bonobo Oct 2013 #24
This is interesting stuff. It has the ring of truth. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2013 #25
Excellent term LadyHawkAZ Oct 2013 #26
:D It encompasses everything pitbullgirl1965 Oct 2013 #27
Never said it was a big concern in my life either. Bonobo Oct 2013 #7
I agree that that kind of dickishness is unbecoming either way. Anyone who says things like that nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #8
"Dickishness"!!!! LOL! Bonobo Oct 2013 #10
Assholishness? I guess that's more gender neutral... nomorenomore08 Oct 2013 #12
A++ Post. pitbullgirl1965 Oct 2013 #22

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
4. Meh... I "get" it, but I don't trouble myself about it too much...
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 07:58 PM
Oct 2013

On the list of the things that truly concern me, this honestly ranks pretty low.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
5. If I'm going to get wrapped around an axle about sexism...
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 10:01 PM
Oct 2013

I'm going to be as concerned about objectification, superficiality, exploitation and stereotyping wherever it occurs.

I don't think it's intellectually honest to denigrate only one half of a couple who selected one another by evaluating "boobs" and "income".

Nor do I think it's fair to wring ones hands over "superficial guys who don't like smart women" while publicly berating short men. One can't live by stereotype and expect others not to react in kind.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
6. I can mostly agree with that. And while I may deplore the existence of a shallow, mindless culture
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 10:49 PM
Oct 2013

I see no reason to scapegoat either gender in the process. But for the most part, I see "sexism against men" as something akin to "reverse racism" - i.e. more theoretical than real, and not likely to have a serious detrimental impact on my life.

For the record, I know you've brought up legitimate issues here, for instance the fact that men account for the vast majority of workplace injuries and fatalities. Where I differ is the belief that "men's issues" are the fault of "misandry" - frankly, I don't see that at all, even as I do recognize that conventional gender roles, in many ways, are just as harmful to men as to women.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
9. Some problems are the result of misandry. Some are not.
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:52 PM
Oct 2013

I get that being razzed for living in mom's basement is about on par with complaining about discrimination because your dry cleaning and haircuts are more expensive.

About the more serious issues you mention; Personally, I think that workplace injuries and fatalities have their roots in patriarchy. They aren't on anyone's radar because they are a part of patriarchy which is really only considered a problem to the next of kin. Male only draft? Ditto. We're fine with patriarchy - sometimes - and especially if it means that crab legs remain less than $10.00 per pound.

Misandry on the other hand, raises its head when people say that it is intolerably sexist to talk about this stuff.

It's not necessary for these things to be a problem for me personally - to recognize that it is a problem generally. It represents an irreconcilable asymmetry in social priorities. I find it odd that when I mourn the treatment Matthew Shepard got, or the treatment that Trayvon Martin got, or the treatment that Rachel Corrie got, I'm fulfilling expectations because only an inhuman monster could fail to sympathize on the basis that what happened to them is "more theoretical than real, and not likely to have a serious detrimental impact on my life."

(Cue the bla bla brigade: "Did you hear him compare himself to Trayvon Martin?!1!1&quot

*on edit*
I am not suggesting that this is what you are doing. I am just saying that men are socialized to ignore and minimize not only trivial slights, but even grossly unfair treatment.
*/edit*

It is true enough that I have been blessed with skills and an environment that allowed me to avoid seriously hazardous occupations, but that may or may not be true for my sons, and contrary to popular opinion, it isn't the coal miner's fault for doing something so stupid.

Men are murdered 3x more often. They die of suicide 5x more often. They die on the job 8x more often. They die 7 years younger. I don't think there's any argument who's getting the disproportionate share of harm.

There's no such thing as reverse sexism. It is all one thing.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
11. "Disproportionate share of harm"? Maybe not overall, but a great many men are being harmed greatly.
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:59 PM
Oct 2013

That I will never disagree with. Where I do take issue is the notion that this is rooted in some larger cultural bias against men.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
13. Do you think that men should be equally represented on college campuses?
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 12:03 AM
Oct 2013

If so, you are in disagreement with our president. I don't know how the culture could express its bias any more explicitly.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
14. Do I? I suppose so, in theory. But why is that one particular number/statistic so important?
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 01:00 AM
Oct 2013

And even assuming that it is, are you really going to argue that contemporary American society, as a whole, is more biased against men than against women? Seems to require quite a selective view of things, to say the least.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
15. Let's explore this.
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:56 AM
Oct 2013

You are saying that you think society is more biased against women. That's a valid viewpoint, and one that is shared by most americans. The president has said that the fact that women as a group make 77% of what men as a group do "for the same work" (which is false) is a huge national priority and that laws need to be written to address it. The fact that the problem as described doesn't exist in part because it's been illegal for fifty years doesn't appear to affect the rhetoric much.

On the other hand, daughters are 50% more likely to go to college than sons, and instead of suggesting government action to correct this imbalance, the president describes this imbalance itself as a "great achievement"

It's been known for 100 years that men are suffering greater health risks leading to premature death. Men die younger from every preventable cause than women. So, now we have an opportunity to fix things through the ACA. What do we do? We raise men's cost of insurance by passing the 30% more that is spent on women's care onto the men.

A good indicator of bias is what you're willing to do to intervene when you see injustice, unfairness or disadvantage. In the cases where that unfairness affects men, the most common reaction is to pat ourselves on the back.

The most damaging kinds of bias are the ones we cherish.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
18. As I said, all the issues you've raised are real and legitimate, I just don't think they're
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:17 PM
Oct 2013

the fault of "misandry." So we agree there's a problem, we just differ on the cause.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
19. I'm not suggesting that those things represent misandry. I am suggesting that they represent bias.
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:48 PM
Oct 2013

And I am suggesting that an all hands on deck reaction for a 5% disparity in pay combined with deafening silence for a 50% disparity in college is reflective of biased social priorities.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
17. It is difficult to quantify, I admit. All I can tell you is that I don't feel disadvantaged, at all,
Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
Oct 2013

as a man in this society. And I really can't relate to those who do.

Major Nikon

(36,817 posts)
21. There are those who are disadvantaged on both sides of the gender divide
Fri Oct 11, 2013, 04:39 AM
Oct 2013

All it takes is empathy to relate. However, you've just identified the central problem with the claim that either gender has more privilege than the other. Those claims are largely based on what people feel rather than anything they can quantify. Race privilege is easy to quantify. There are few, if any, privileges one receives for being black vs white while you can't say that about the reverse. This is not true for gender privilege.

pitbullgirl1965

(564 posts)
23. The Kyriarchy Hurts Men
Sat Oct 19, 2013, 01:47 AM
Oct 2013
There's no such thing as reverse sexism. It is all one thing. YES!
Exactly. they say sexism hurts men too (which it does) I prefer the term Kyriarchy.
It covers everything.

I hope this isn't hijacking your group. I stumbled across it and you have some good threads.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
25. This is interesting stuff. It has the ring of truth.
Sat Oct 19, 2013, 11:10 AM
Oct 2013

I hadn't heard this term before, and reading about it is very thought provoking. It is certainly better thought out and articulated than the concept of intersectionality.

Let me break this down for you. When people talk about patriarchy and then it divulges into a complex conversation about the shifting circles of privilege, power, and domination -- they're talking about kyriarchy. When you talk about power assertion of a White woman over a Brown man, that's kyriarchy. When you talk about a Black man dominating a Brown womyn, that's kyriarchy. It's about the human tendency for everyone trying to take the role of lord/master within a pyramid. At it best heights, studying kyriarchy displays that it's more than just rich, white Christian men at the tip top and, personally, they're not the ones I find most dangerous. There's a helluva lot more people a few levels down the pyramid who are more interested in keeping their place in the structure than to turning the pyramid upside down.

Who's at the bottom of the pyramid? Who do you think are at the bottom of the pyramid who are less likely to scheme and spend extravagant resources to further perpetuate oppression? I think of poor children with no roads out of hell, the mentally ill who are never "credible," un-gendered or non-gender identified people, farm workers, modern day slaves...But, the pyramid stratifies itself from top to bottom. And before you start making a checklist of who is at the top and bottom - here's my advice: don't bother. The pyramid shifts with context. The point is not to rank. The point is to learn.

It's about recognizing the power-over relationships that exist because of property, religion, security, economics, citizenship, and geography. Let's not pretend that just because there are not many propertied males mucking around the fem blogosphere, there aren't queen bees and wanna bees exercising the same kind of behavior. So when we talk about woman asserting power over other womyn, we're talking kyriarchy. When you witness woman trying to dominate, define, outline the "movement" or even what an ally should be - that's the kyriarchal ethos strong at work.


http://myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.html

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
7. Never said it was a big concern in my life either.
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:40 PM
Oct 2013

But something worthy of consideration? Sure.

As a short guy, I can tell you that the number of women that come right out and say that they would never consider a guy under 6 feet (I am 5'7&quot is enormous.

How is that any different than saying "I wouldn't consider a woman with anything less than a D cup" or "I wouldn't consider a woman over 115 pounds". etc.?

I don't think it is. But the level of outrage over such exclamations is entirely stacked against men being the bad guys.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
8. I agree that that kind of dickishness is unbecoming either way. Anyone who says things like that
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:51 PM
Oct 2013

- be they male or female - doesn't deserve to be taken very seriously.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
10. "Dickishness"!!!! LOL!
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:59 PM
Oct 2013

Now, if I was as sensitive as some, I would say that using the male genitals in a way that denotes such a negative character trait, was itself sexist!

Fortunately, I am not, but I do see the humor and irony of it.

Or as some might say "You're all so much fun! I'm smiling so much right now!"

pitbullgirl1965

(564 posts)
22. A++ Post.
Sat Oct 19, 2013, 01:36 AM
Oct 2013

Gender essentialist feminism. It's not what I consider feminism, but sadly many people subscribe to it.

"All men are animals" I hear from both women and men: "you shouldn't wear a short skirt, you know how men are!"
What an insult to men. As if men are sub humans who can't control themselves.

On TV: men are portrayed as boorish oafs, loveable shlubs, who are clueless about **laundry, cleaning, or childcare or else slobs living in their parents house. (which there is nothing wrong with that) All they need is a women to keep them in line (I'm looking at you Bounty Towels. The one where the guy sets the plunger on the counter and the wife rolls her eyes and cleans up after him.

“If women ran the world, there would be no war.”

I had a huge fight with my mother over this. It's the same mindset that says women are the kinder, nurturing gender and men are animals. Sorry mother, I don't want to be the gatekeeper of morals.

An aside: the whole registering for the draft at 18 that men have to do, but not women is part of the gender essentialist crap.

Either both sexes do it or abolish it.

Radical Feminists are a nastier version of gender essentialist fembots. IIRC besides being bigots about transgendered folk, don't they hate men too? To the point they recommend killing them?


**I am a loyal Tide user and I really like them now: they have a commercial where the dad is a stay at home day, doing the laundry, playing with his daughter etc.

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