Tough Guise: Violence, Media & the Crisis in Masculinity

[redqueen]

I just wanted to share this here because I think it's a brilliant campaign, and I think it might spark some interesting discussions. If not here, then it might be of use elsewhere when discussing these issues.

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. Yes and no.

The overlying message is worth discussing.

However, he uses the same old damaging, misleading and inaccurate stereotypes to make his case.
http://www.menweb.org/pronevio.htm

For instance, research shows again and again that domestic violence is largely reciprocal, and the fact that we've made very little headway in decreasing it by focusing only on men suggests that we're not going to solve a cycle of violence by ostracizing only one party.

If the ideas of strength, toughness of character and independence are off limits in a redefinition of what it means to be a man, I hope he has little success. These character traits are not negatives, nor are they solely the result of social conditioning. They are inbuilt to many of our inherent behaviors.

When I think of a masculine ideal, I see Smedley Butler and Jamie Escalante.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited/singlepage

[nomorenomore08]

20. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. I certainly don't disagree with that.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. So can I come into the Feminists group and post a video of what I think women should be like?

Just curious.

[mistertrickster]

12. Let me answer that -- no. nt.

[opiate69]

13. + 1000

[loli phabay]

15. good point, not sure anybody has the rights answers when it comes to stuff like this

Not everyone is the same either, some want to be the submissive housewife, some want to be the macho guy, some want to be the sensitive guy. Problem is that some people believe they have all the answers and assume tbat their normal should be everyone elses.

[nomorenomore08]

21. +1

I've been saying all along that I think the real problem - or at least a big part of it - is trying to shove everyone into these little boxes. Traditional gender roles are but one form of this.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Crap, I can't even get along with -myself-, some days.

And I know I'm not alone in that.

Or maybe I am.

[galileoreloaded]

19. i cant even go there. I was a big meanie!

[opiate69]

22. lol.. join the club...

I think Lumberjack Jeff is about the only regular here who is still allowed in the echo chamber anymore

[galileoreloaded]

25. he is a saint with the gift of patience, to be sure. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Bwahahaha!

[dipsydoodle]

3. I watched it

and can only conlude that either reality has changed or there are material differnces between the USA and the UK.

[HuskiesHowls]

4. Its so much more than just violence that needs to be addressed.

Just watch TV. Notice how many ads put men down, make them out as the dummies. Now watch any show, and this can go all the way back to Ozzie and Harriet and The Honeymooners. Notice how many times the men are made the butt of the joke, as being the unthinking one, the clueless one. The women are always great at taking care of everything, and getting the messes (that the men get into) straightened out.

The violence comes because men are lashing out in the only way they know how. The media shows them how, and the real problem is that there are not enough good role models to show them better ways of reacting.

It's a big, huge cultural issue. Its brought on by a paternalistic society, where males are taught from little up that they have to be the provider, that they are responsible for the family. And to add to that, (most) females are brought up to believe that they should be provided for (whether they will admit it or not). No, we're not directly taught that, but I can see those issues in my own actions and thoughts, and I see them in the women in my life. I can trace these back to what I saw on TV as a kid, the way society worked then, what I saw going on around me.

It is so much more. I just thank God that I learned some before my son was grown, and I could help him to become a mature, thinking young man.

[galileoreloaded]

27. "where males are taught from little up that they have to be the provider" ISNT paternalistic

its feeding a feminine imperative that makes men draft horses to be objectified and maintained then necessarily shamed into eating this shit by using code words like "Patriarchy". the architects of this snort and snicker every time one more falls to this brilliant snow job. i find it fascinating.

[HuskiesHowls]

43. Good point!!

That comment is almost a year and a half old. Since then, my attitudes have changed. Dealing with the gender wars here, I have become even more aware of how badly men are treated. "Feminists" and "Men's Rights Activists" are at each other rather like drug lords warring over territory. If everyone would calm down, ask themselves how can I make myself better, I think that life would improve for everyone.

[Doctor_J]

38. This is tough to believe

The violence comes because men are lashing out in the only way they know how.

really? the only way? Maybe if your dad was violent.

[HuskiesHowls]

44. As a society, we are taught violence wins.

How do you win a war? By being more violent than the other country. How do you get the bully at (wherever) to leave you alone? You defeat them, and a war of words isn't going to work. Young men learn that violence works, and anger management is not a course taught in school.

Violence comes in many forms, not just fisticuffs, or knives or guns. It can take the form of mental abuse, or physical abuse (other than actually hitting someone). Driving recklessly, unintentionally endangering others can be a form of violence.

You don't need a violent father (or mother) to be (or become) violent.

[Upton]

5. Jackson Katz is full of it..

How can this guy blame modern media for traits men have been exhibiting since the beginning of time? Male attributes such as strength and toughness have been used to protect women and children down through history...I doubt if there were any so called feminists complaining then.

No matter how hard you try redqueen, you're never going to be able to make most of us into your ideal image of what you believe a man should be.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. The world is changing.

I don't think the "beginning of time" ideal of manhood is useful for today's world, but I DO think that it should be men who do the redefining.

The women's movement has done a good job of broadening and and normalizing the idea that a woman can decide for herself what it means to be feminine without relying on the menfolk to tell her.

Katz is coming at the issue from a narrow perspective: reducing violence. When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails.

[Upton]

7. The world may be changing..

but looking to history, and pointing out how these male characteristics, Katz so arrogantly dismisses and blames on the modern media, were used to ensure the survival of human beings as a species, serves to demonstrate how these traits are not learned behavior at all, but are part of who we are as men and always have been..

It's up to us as males to channel these attributes in the right direction, but I'll not take my cue from someone like Katz..

[plantwomyn]

8. What "attributes" are you talking about?

In the video from 2:33-3:15 the stats given are not "attributes" nor are they "characteristics" they are crimes. None of these crimes "ensure the survival of humans as a species" and in fact, disproportionately harm women and children.
The question I have is: What do YOU attribute the seeming acceptance of this violence by men against humanity and in particular women and children? You seem to believe that this violence merely needs to be channeled. Conversely, I believe that this violence needs to be seen as unacceptable conduct by society and by "real men" in particular. If it isn't the media, then it follows that the male population is at fault for allowing this conduct to continue and sanctioned.

Don't get me wrong, women teach their sons how to treat women. But once out from under their mothers "aprons" it's their male peers and mentors that the take their cues from. Many men claim that a woman cannot teach a boy to be a man. If this is true then men have to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the violence that, young men in particular, perpetrate on our society.

Your post seems to say that violence is part and parcel of "who we are as men". But "strength, independence, toughness and respect" are NOT inherently violent characteristics. So why does it seem that violence is the overwhelming method that all too many men use to express their "masculinity"?

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. What to attribute the "seeming acceptance of violence against women and children"?

If you were a man making that statement, I'd ask if you were speaking for yourself. Since you're apparently not, you're simply telling us what you think we believe, and IMHO doing it badly. It is one thing to say that violence among and against men is a problem. It's another thing to say that all men are culpable for the violence of any man.

The charter of this group is very broadly defined; "issues of interest to men". There are several other groups in which you can tell us what we think, but this group should be free of that kind of flame baiting.

This thread is useful because violence is a problem and an issue of interest among men. It won't be a venue to bash men for the violent pigs they become when they stray from the benevolent detention of their mothers.

To directly answer your question; the operative phrase is "seeming". It seems to you that men teach one another to be violent to women. This widely-held perception, in my experience held almost exclusively by women, is a topic of interest but the perception itself is invalid.

The positive qualities of toughness, respect, strength, self-discipline and independence should be part of masculinity. They are separable from the weakness of aggressive violence.

[plantwomyn]

10. You state that the "operative phrase is "seeming"

yet you fail to recognize what "seeming" means in the context which I used it, e.g. in appearance but not necessarily in actuality. So clearly I wasn't telling you what you think or flame baiting.
You seem to have ignored the caveat in my statement about women's responsibility for teaching sons and I will add here, the men around them, what is acceptable conduct.

If we are exchanging opinions about ineffectuality, IMHO you pretend to answer the two questions that I asked by misrepresenting what I posted. I don't know if it's because you unwilling or unable to read my post indiscriminately. But your statement doesn't answer either of my questions, ever indirectly.

Your inference that I believe that men teach one another to be violent does not have any connection to my post. I do however believe that they CAN teach them NOT to express their "masculinity" with violence. You have every right to disavow any responsibility to mentor other males, or lead by example. But I don't believe society can blame or burden women with the full responsibility of the upbringing or children, not matter how "benevolent" their "detention" may be. Your use of the word "detention" is of interest though. I also notice that you added the attribute of "self-discipline". Perhaps if that were placed first and foremost, the aggressive violence would be much less of a malaise.

The charter of the group does not preclude females from posting nor does it seem to require that there be a unanimous agreement about the views expressed. But if you were threatened by my statement I apologize. But I do wonder why you felt that you needed to reply to questions I addressed to Upton.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. "women's responsibility for teaching sons and... the men around them"

Let me lighten your load. You don't bear the moral responsibility to teach me what is acceptable conduct, any more than I have the responsibility to educate you or any other nearby women.

As grownups, our responsibility for our individual conduct is our own. To believe otherwise is to replace paternalism with maternalism. Both are condescending.

[loli phabay]

16. pretty sure the last people i would want advising me are the extreme feminists

As you say we are responsible for ourselves

[radicalliberal]

14. I'm not sure I'd ever take my cue from you.

Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:44 PM - Edit history (5)

One of the traditional supposed measures of masculinity has been participation in sports. That particular little item is even specifically mentioned by Katz in his description of the "narrow box." Do you favor stigmatizing boys who have no interest in sports as wimps or "feminized" males? Do you favor the bullying of nonathletic boys? After all, they represent a departure from the "norms" of supposed "masculinity."

You talk about strength. What about moral courage? Did physical strength play any role at all in the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, or was it driven by moral courage?

I don't believe in blending the sexes. There are differences between men and women, aside from the "plumbing." But you seem to be advocating machismo, which I detest completely. I grew up with machismo and learned all about it before I even heard the word. I had my fill of it!

Listening to Men's Rights Advocates and other guys, you'd think all men's problems were caused by women. Well, as far as I'm concerned, many of them have been caused by other men! Machismo has caused more misery in my life than anything else. Some, if not much, of this misery is of a personal nature and obviously cannot be discussed in a public forum such as this one. It took me decades to realize just how phony and wrong machismo is. If I sound angry, it's because I am!

I never expected Jackson Katz to be attacked in a progressive forum. I'd expect this sort of reaction in a conservative or reactionary website.

Katz is not the problem. He's just a reformer like Joe Ehrmann. He's all right by me.

[galileoreloaded]

18. mens problems are caused by men listening to bullshit like this.

we have to stop being scared of our testosterone.

[radicalliberal]

26. Nonathletic boys' problems are caused by those who tell them that they're less manly . . .

. . . simply because they're not interested in sports. I ought to know. I grew up with that routine in spades.

I was also taught by the culture at school and elsewhere that empathy and compassion were "feminine" traits, which therefore were undesirable in men. Despite the fact that these two traits have often been the driving force behind great acts of courage. Would Esquire magazine, one of the leading proponents of machismo, ever feature any articles about Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. Andrei Sakharov, or Raoul Wallenberg? Nah, that's "sissy" stuff!

I love this phony issue of late regarding the supposed "feminization" or "wussification" of America (often accompanied with a defense of bullying in the schools) that has been blathered about elsewhere. How wonderfully right-wing that is! Perhaps we should get the extreme right-wing gay guy named Jack Donovan (actually not his real name), who frequently lectures straight guys for supposedly not being masculine enough as he wields his plastic Conan sword about and extols the virtues of John Wayne, a white racist conservative Republican who never served in a war. (It is to laugh.) I'm sure he'd set us straight!

I should admit that I haven't watched this entire video. I stopped after he spoke about the "narrow box" regarding the socialization of boys. That's a bit too painful for me. He's dead right about the "narrow box." I was painfully aware of that reality when I was a kid. Perhaps he brings up another issue of which I'm not aware later in the video. Maybe that would be a different matter. Perhaps I'd disagree with him, but probably not. (I just thought I'd throw that one in for fun. Y'all don't have :mrgreen: .)

I'm not scared of my testosterone. Medically speaking, at the age of 64, I'm quite grateful my body still manufactures it in abundance. (I certainly don't have to take Viagra! ) I'm sure it's been helpful in my bodybuilding program, which has involved a lot of work and slow progress. But I'm not driven by my "testosterone" (speaking from a psychological/social point of view now) to ridicule some other guy because he has a scrawny build or because he's fat. In fact, I would regard such a view to be completely stupid. I suppose I should show how "tough" I am by becoming some sort of bully, something I've detested all of my life.

I'm on a bodybuilding program simply to feel good about myself. (Well, also because I've got late onset type II diabetes and have therefore got to exercise!) Unlike some other people (women as well as men), I don't feel compelled to get on some campaign to put down some guys simply because they supposedly aren't masculine enough according to standards that are superficial and phony. Besides, it's none of my business!

I'm also quite aware that a guy who happens to be physically weaker than I may be more intelligent, spiritual, or courageous than I. Why? Because I know just how diverse boys and men are. After all, we comprise half the human race; so, there's bound to be a lot of variety. But some (such as all the proponents of machismo) want all men to be the same. Has never been, 'twill never be.

[galileoreloaded]

28. ah, man you seem cool and I'm not trying to down you. i respect your experience.

it's probably just a generational difference in attitudes and learned behavior that's hanging us up. the 50's thru the 80's must have been a real bitch to live through as a man in America. constantly berated, constant shame. i cant imagine.

peace brother and great comments.

[radicalliberal]

33. Thank you very much for the kind compliments. :)

Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2013, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I wasn't sure how my own comments in this topic would be received. I had even considered deleting my post. I've been dealing with a bit of stress lately concerning my health. One of Katz' comments touched upon a "hot-button" issue of mine; so, off I went. Strong emotion can be a problem in online exchanges.

Galileoreloaded, I think you have a point about the possibility of there being a generational difference. If I had raised a son instead of two daughters, perhaps I would have been made aware of generational differences regarding the socialization of boys.

My two daughters' experiences in the public schools have been considerably more positive than mine were. Even though my IQ was higher than average, I hated school with a passion because of all the routine cruelty that typified social interactions among the students, most of whom were spoiled rich kids. (Incidentally, for what it's worth, from the time I was nine years old, I grew up in one of the most staunchest conservative affluent Republican congressional districts in the country, the one that was once represented by Bush The First. The racism was, and probably still is, pervasive. I'm white, by the way. I couldn't be paid to live there again.)

Thanks again for the kind compliments.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. I think you're conflating machismo and masculinity unfairly.

I fully agree that the narrow box is a bad thing. I dispute that a different narrow box, one defined by women for their benefit, is any better.

[radicalliberal]

34. You've made a good point. :)

I think we're in agreement here. I don't equate maschismo with true masculinity.

I once was acquainted with a white Texan of the World War II generation (the father of a childhood friend) who became a civil rights attorney in the early 1950s. I'd say he was cut from the same cloth as Sakharov and Wallenberg, among others. He and the members of his family received many death threats over the years. At one point he was even spied upon by Army Intelligence, even though he was one of the most patriotic persons I've ever met! A World War II Navy veteran who had seen his share of bloodshed, he was one of the toughest, most masculine men I've ever known. (Sadly, I suspect he felt ashamed of himself because he played a guitar instead of football in high school, which is truly ludicrous that he would feel that way about himself!) He passed away about ten years ago. Truly a man's man!

I agree with you about narrow boxes of either kind. Some guys are too large to fit inside them.

Lumberjack_jeff, I think you and I are in basic agreement about this sort of controversy.

[Dash87]

36. ^ Wall of truth

Machismo is also heavily linked to homophobia.

[radicalliberal]

40. I agree! Do you know what's ludicrous?

The negative stereotyping of homosexual men that was the norm of my generation, that's what -- which, incidentally, I as a slightly built nonathletic teenage boy believed along with so many other people (and that was to my own hurt). The problem is that these demeaning stereotypes were false.

Machismo is being inconsistent and hypocritical as usual. Let me see now. . . . Machismo values physical strength and athletic prowess above virtually everything else, doesn't it? Well, in my various excursions on the Internet and other media, I've noticed that some of the most rugged guys are gay! (As a 63-year-old straight guy on a bodybuilding program, I sure wish I was as well built as them!) There are gays who play football! (Of course, when I was a boy, the standard line that was spouted to parents was "Hey, if your son has no interest in sports, then something is wrong! He probably has homosexual tendencies! What a loser! What a sorry excuse of a son you have!" A fine contribution of the sports culture to the misery of nonathletic boys. Well, I think Brian Sims and Esera Tuaolo might have something to say about this sort of assumption. Oh, I forgot. This sort of stereotyping is still done today in some quarters!) So, all the advocates of machismo should be "man enough" to admit when they have been wrong; but that's expecting too much of those people.

By the way (and I don't mean to sound like a jerk), do you realize what I've done? I've resurrected an old thread!

[opiate69]

41. Attack of the zombie thread!!!

Carry on...

[radicalliberal]

42. Excellent! lol

I confess. I buried it in the MicMac burial ground.

[galileoreloaded]

17. great example of a "nice guy" attempting to engender himself to the ladies (and get laid)

by projecting his own insecurities about his discomfort at how people perceive him, and how he perceives himself, a ton of self delusion and self-hate, and then necessarily reflecting it out onto others. this never works, btw guys. women will see you as either some asexual eunich or once you break the model of contrivance that "views" like this reinforce, as a "creeper" or "stalker". they sniff this shit out like a pig sniffing truffles.

give in to this bullshit at your own peril.

[nomorenomore08]

23. I guess I'm not quite so cynical about it. I believe his intentions are good, but as you put it

it does no good to be "afraid of one's testosterone." Like I said above, I think it's a matter of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, i.e. embracing the positive aspects of masculinity while rejecting the harmful and destructive ones.

[galileoreloaded]

24. i totally understand and appreciate your view

but make no mistake, THESE are the guys that end up raping, end up having horrible emotional reactions to rejection, based on their distorted views of gender and their role in society. the dudebro just washes his hands of you and finds another girl, this guy can't get past his sunk costs.

there is nothing more dangerous to women than a man who trots out this self hating bullshit, and upon it not delivering the desired result (and in fact the opposite, watching the "asshole" get the girl because the asshole won't cowtow to stupid platitudes and wrongheaded ideas that feed the "concept" of not feminine equality but supremacy) flips out and abuses women.

this is the second wave's ugly legacy, men who don't know how to be men yet double down on weakness until they schism.

[nomorenomore08]

29. I do think there's a good bit of truth to what you just said.

Certainly there's nothing healthy about self-loathing - genuine self-loathing, that is, not the spurious kind attributed to white progressives by the far right - and those who try too hard to deny their masculinity often wind up expressing it in unhealthy, even downright destructive ways. Just look at stridently anti-porn, "radical feminist" blogger Kyle Payne - the guy videotaped himself groping a passed-out female student against her will, and was even found with ( ) fucking ch*ld p*rn on his laptop!

[rrneck]

35. Not really...

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. +1000. A must-see TED talk. n/t

[Doctor_J]

37. That reminds me. I haven't watched Hard Target in probably a year

Makes me want to grow a mullet and kick some ass in NOLA