Tony Porter Ted talk; A call to men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

What are your thoughts about this? I found much to agree with, but I often wonder why talks like this are usually directed at rooms full of women.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Thoughts? One, its really long. I only got about half through.

Two, i think its relevant- lets be honest, for a moment, here- many of these cultural norms are not universal and equally prevalent in all corners of even American society. Mr. Porter is, obviously, African American. It's fairly well known that many AA and Hipanic communities seem to have more of a cultural issue, for instance, with homosexuality than at least liberal white communiies. Some of this is driven by churches... And it is, like many other positive moves in our society, changing, as witnessed by the NAACP vote on gay marriage.

I was listening to him talk about how he relates to his son and daughter, and it sounded very similar... Similar to the way many of my friends were raised.... in the 60s. I dont pretend to be be an expert on how other people raise their kids; and there sure seems to be a big range.. But in the circles ive run in, spanking for instance is something that went out with smoking sections on airplanes.

What struck me about the "nurturing" way he was with his daughter and the "cold" way he was with him son, was that ive been BOTH ways, equally, with my kids regardless of gender. Im not a saint, sometimes i get exasperated as a dad, but i can honestly say it has NEVER occurred to me to treat my kids differently, repond to them differently emotionally, because of their gender. Such an idea seems flat out rdiculous to me.

Im glad Mr. Porter has overcome that, but a lot of us have already been there for a long time. In fact the stuff he talks about sounds positively anachronistic at times.

[Cayenne]

2. Boring, irrelevant male bashing

How do we fix boys?

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. I thought it was thought provoking.

On the one hand, there is a strong cultural expectation that men don't express what they're feeling unless it's anger or posturing for the benefit of the gang. This "man box" is destructive for the people forced to live in it.

On the other hand, I dislike the perceived need to argue that changes to our self-destructive attitudes are necessary only because they bother women. The fact that they are self-destructive and reflective of limited self-respect is reason enough. Maybe if he were giving the speech to a room full of guys; ostensibly his intended audience, the tone would have been different.

We've been experimenting on boys for 30 years. I think that the "fixes" that have been applied to them are demonstrably not working. They are depressed, alienated, disillusioned and detached from any useful model of what it means to be a man. At least when I was young 40 years ago, I knew what I was supposed to be when I grew up, warts and all.

And welcome to DU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. Certainly I couldn't identify with the anecdotes of his youth either.

Advice is like a shoe, one size does not fit all.

Although as I said I agreed with much of what he was saying, in the cynical part of my mind I fear he was embellishing stereotypes for the benefit of his audience.

[Gore1FL]

3. I'll always watch a recommended TED Talks.

I found myself agreeing with him. I'm guilty of living in it and propagating it. I think the trick is, being aware of what he speaks of, and trying to suppress the momentum. I know I allowed my son to have emotions. I can't compare it to having a daughter. That never happened.

I think it is good he is speaking to women. Just as society has taught a men to perpetuate the "man box," women have a role in helping to perpetuate it. They are armed with an interesting power to break it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. I don't agree with your last paragraph.

I think only men are ultimately responsible for creating an inclusive and social male identity that works for us.

I appreciate the support my wife gives me, but my self-identity isn't, and shouldn't be, constrained to the box that she sees. Asking for women's help in breaking the box is simply an invitation to replace it with a different one, still of someone else's choosing.*

*this is clumsy and not clearly expressing what I mean, but it'll have to do for now.

[Gore1FL]

7. Women can break the man box in a different way

I am not saying they are responsible for it's existence, only they have a way of smashing it open. A woman convincingly saying "why are you so insecure in your masculinity" causes the "man box" to explode under it's own weight.

I am not trying to imply the answer to the "man box" is all exothermic. Certainly there are endothermic ways in the social male environment. I just mean that socially women have more topics on the table.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. ... a way of their choosing.

Women have men's interests at heart to no greater degree than men have women's interests at heart. And even if this were 100% true for both sexes, I'm ignorant about what it means to be a woman and I wouldn't presume to help women define that. The inverse is true for my wife.

Women have recognized that they need to be responsible and empowered for their own destinies.

A woman convincingly saying "why are you so insecure in your masculinity" presupposes that a) she's right and b) she has a good idea of what masculinity should be. Personally, I think I'm more likely to be right and have a better idea of what it means to me.

[Gore1FL]

9. That's sort of my point.

A woman convincingly saying "why are you so insecure in your masculinity" presupposes that a) she's right and b) she has a good idea of what masculinity should be. Personally, I think I'm more likely to be right and have a better idea of what it means to me.

A> The fact that there is a "man box" in the first place makes the presupposition true.

B> In many ways A woman's definition of masculinity is as much of a factor in creating a "man box" as a man's definition.

[Catherina]

10. That particular talk was given at a women's conference (TEDWoman)

One on of his interviews he explained that Call To Men mostly talks to men, military bases and academies, colleges, high schools...

Here's an example except that it sounds too much like a Verizon commercial

For anyone who has the time, here's the interview where he explains how the majority of their work is with men

I like the way men are talking with men about this, not women telling men, "from a perspective of a world they would like to see for their daughters", because we're all in this together, raising our kids and trying to make their world a little better than ours was.

Please forgive this intrusion, I just wanted to clear that up and also thank you for talking about it my brothers.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. You're welcome to participate in the discussion, here, Catherina.

I posted my opinions on the video upthread. I only got about 60% of the way though, but like I said I felt that much of what he was talking about sounded extremely anachronistic, or perhaps cliched.

I realize that not everyone raises their kids the same way... My wife and I took a lot from the Dr. Sears playbook, which may explain a lot.

[Catherina]

15. It could be. Not being a man, it's hard for me to gauge

The thing I like the most is that rather than women saying "YO!" in an accusatory manner, this is men telling other men that good, decent men hold the real key to put an end to this. If women could have, this would have ended long ago but we haven't been able to.

It was news to me that there were mens' organizations out there that even cared. I know many men care, but seeing an organization set up to talk to young men, impressed me.

Also, it may seem anachronistic to you but it's making younger men, who aren't as progressive, think hard.

We're talking manbox here, so I'm totally out of my element but I do know there's a way to talk to young boys and help them grow as men, a way to raise them as macho jerks and sadly a way to unwittingly make them feel emasculated.

My mom raised 7 girls and 1 boy. All the girls are fine and strong and independent. She treated us all equally and demanded the same from all 8. This wasn't a problem for any of us, except my brother, who came out of the whole experience feeling emasculated because my mom walked all over my father, hard, and also because we were treated equally with no special privileges for him. Now he's a macho jerk. When I hear Porter talk, I think of my brother. Obviously I'm not the best judge but it doesn't sound anachronistic to me.

I'm very interested in what you guys have to say and your reaction to it.

I'd like to add one more thing. I think men have come a long way, just as White people in the US have, when it comes to recognizing we're all created equal. It's just that we all fall short sometimes and talking about it is always good.

I think you already know that I see the real problem as a class issue and not gender but there are still gender issues there because of the way we're all raised.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. So straight up, honest question, Catherina: Looking at the videos, it seems geared in large part

towards the African American community.

Would this be, to your mind, an accurate assessment?

[Catherina]

14. I wondered that too

because the 2 founders are Black and they work closely with the Women of Color Network but since abuse crosses racial lines, so do they. They reach out to all men and I've seen several videos where it's a color-blind intersectional thing and all of their commercials are interracial. Some of their speakers are White too. My impression is that this is totally color blind.


They've been briefing the military academies and those are mostly White.

I'd be very disappointed if this was mostly geared towards the AA community.

Straight up question. When you listened to him speak, did it sound geared towards African Americans or was his talk something all men can relate to?


Lieutenant Colonel Dave Jones
Values Education Officer
United States Military Academy
West Point, New York

"Tony provided West Point Cadets (the entire freshman class of
1000+), a very insightful and energized overview of all of our
responsibilities in being part of the solution as we deal with each
other - both men and women. He accentuated the importance of
all of us to take a proactive and positive role in stamping out
sexual harassment or assault. Needless to say, Tony
communicated that "well-meaning men" sometimes feel
pressured to stay in the "man-box" and offered us
encouragement to "get out of there" and be the RIGHT role
model for so many men and boys as well. The Cadets gave Tony
a well-deserved standing ovation. Tony, thanks for a candid and
honest dialogue that emphasized the positive aspects of MEN
and WOMEN on the TEAM together! Future Leaders in the Corps
and in Tomorrow's Army salute you! Thanks for making a
difference. one presentation at a time! We have already
scheduled Tony to come back to West Point for several future
events."


http://www.acalltomen.com/page.php?id=47

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Anecdotally, it seems like there are some entrenched attitudes, for instance, in many AA communities

around things like gender roles, homosexuality, etc. Also Hispanic communities. I don't have a breakdown on numbers, but the anecdotal cultural meme seems to be that AA Churches, for instance, and Hispanic cultural traditions frown on things like homosexuality and push more rigid gender stereotypes. Certainly, there are predominantly white, fundy churches that do the same, but there also seems to be a greater divide in the larger white community between the religious-fundamental-conservatives and the secular-progressive-cultural liberals.

I've said, again, clearly my experience is influenced by spending most of my life in predominantly white, progressive communities... but the stuff he was saying, again, sounded terribly anachronistic. It's not how I raise my kids, nor is it how I think too many of the folks in the circles I run in raise their kids. I'm not them, of course, and I can't say for sure. But as far as "something all men can relate to"; I think most men my age (older side of Gen X, Obama's era) can relate to it as maybe the noise we heard growing up in the 60s or 70s, and certainly some of us have consciously moved away from as we've moved away from homophobia or other outdated crap... but not stuff that we've carried over into our own childrearing.

It didn't strike me as all that personally relevant.

[Catherina]

20. Would you agree that his point about decent men getting more involved

by raising their sons differently and calling out bad behavior instead of turning a blind eye to it?

I spent much of my life in predominantly white, progressive communities (the key there being progressive) with a preponderance of professional men and women, or old money. Before leaving those communities, I don't think I could have related to what he talked about but I've been around since then and what I saw wasn't pretty.

I think we've come a long way, thanks to men like you, but there's still a ways to go. Shaun Hannity has a son and I'm not too hopeful about the education he's getting. If a group like Call To Men can catch a kid like that at the right age, maybe they could get through to him?

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Maybe the difference is, where some people see monolithic forces like culture, I see individuals.

Do I think this organization might help some people? Sure, it might. Although knowing what I know about people, I suspect that the folks most in need of hearing what dude has to say, aren't going to sit through the presentation.

[Catherina]

27. How about the young kids on the fence who don't even know they're on the fence?

They said their target audience is young men in college, high school and military academies instead of working with men who can't be reached like the abusers they used to work with.

I imagine that if you're in a military academy or high school where you don't have much of a choice about sitting through this lecture, it might reach you.

I don't know this organization any more than you do but what I do know is that we're all in this together- men raising sons, daughters and mothers raising daughters, son.

We're in a real mess with kids and sexism is only one of the issues. The biggest issue is, I think, just paying attention to your kids so they're not so unloved that they create 70 different facebook personalities all screaming *look at me, look at me*.

Anyway Warren, in this fight I welcome you and all men of decency so our daughters aren't abused and our sons don't end up legally punished for something their minds could justify. We're all in this together for the next generations and when it comes to reaching out to other people's kids, who didn't get values like yours instilled in them, I'm by your side.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. I'm unequivocally against things like violence and abuse.

That said, I notice a tendency at times to rail against imagined cultural forces, or to tilt at windmills that aren't really there. The kids with the "70 different facebook personalities because they're unloved".. is this a real phenomenon?

I see an awful lot of angst around things like "the culture", and historically I think there is ALWAYS a lot of angst around things like "the culture". I actually think in terms of real data, "the culture" is improving. By every metric, violent crime is down. Certainly domestic violence is taken far more seriously than it was a few decades ago, and thankfully so.

I can only speak to what I see and, more specifically, what I do in my own life and family. I can't imagine spouting the sort of nonsense that Mr. Porter speaks of in regards to his own kids, or treating a son different than a daughter in that fashion. Seems absurd, to me, but then lots of things - like homophobia, or religious fundamentalism - seem absurd to me, too.

[Catherina]

38. Yes it is a real phenomenon

You might say it's an aberration because it was Luka Magnotta but he started life thrown away by his parents, raised by a grandmother who gave him no structure and beat the crap out of him, was abused by older men and over the last 9 years slowly disintegrated and all of it documented on the net. I don't think he's the only kid like that who's been desperately screaming for attention since his youth.

I think most of us are good people, men and women, but we turn a blind eye to too many things because we'd feel like we were intruding.

Question, if you had a younger brother and he was putting down his partner in a sexist manner, or abusing her, would you say something? Would you say something if he was treating his children differently based on their sex, and was teaching his son to be a macho and his daughter, for example, to be an emotional manipulator who cried to get her way? Too few people say anything, no matter how gently, when they see it.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. I'm trying to imagine myself into the situation you're putting out there, & drawing kind of a blank

For one, I don't have a younger brother. Two, everyone in my family is pretty much on the same page socially and politically, except maybe for one sister of mine who has gone all Ron Paul and Alex Jones, but she doesn't have any kids. And we're spread out geographically.

Still, my general reaction to something that is fucked up is to say "hey; that's fucked up"

I didn't know who Luka Magnotta was until I googled the name after reading your post. I was dimly aware of the story, but didn't know they guy's name. I will say that things like child abuse, not to mention serial killers and seriously sick people, all existed prior to the internet, the mass media, and all the other alleged demarcation points of modern disintegration, alienation, what-have-you. Certainly, if you beat a puppy you will end up with a severely screwed up dog, and the same hold true, in a fashion, for human beings... all terrible although I think some people also just have faulty wiring; one of the saddest things I think I ever read was an interview with Jeff Dahmer's father; apparently (and I could be remembering it wrong) these guys did everything they could, they were caring, involved parents.. but the kid just had something terribly wrong with him upstairs.

I guess my other problem with some of the approaches in this material, and it ties into some of the objections I heard over the other thread would be the "lets talk to women about whats wrong with men/lets get men to fix whats wrong with men/if women could we would have already fixed whats wrong with men" idea. Starting with, again, the idea that there is something fundamentally "wrong with" men. I don't think there is.

I agree, again, that ideally we should help and nurture and allow people to be who they want to be, to actualize themselves fully, to express their emotions, etc. And kids should be raised in a loving environment and not treated differently because of gender, orientation, etc. But it seems far too easy for this topic (witness other exchanges in the thread) to derail into a laundry list of behaviors that some women don't like about men (men like to look at boobs! Who knew?) and why haven't the men adequately fixed these things to the specifications of the complaining women, and why are the men allowing their boys to do things, again, like look at the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue.

I'll have more to add on this later; gotta go right now.

[Catherina]

40. Saved by paragraph 2

That's what I was looking for. If your reaction would be "hey; that's fucked up", then you're already doing what Call To Men is asking.

I think you may be reading too much into it because I'm not picking up that there's anything fundamentally wrong with men. The point I got was that most men are fundamentally good and decent. How could they not be? You don't want your daughters to be reduced to sexual objects, or abused, any more than mothers do.

I missed your exchange with Seabeyond but from what I gathered from the posts she left up, she was getting at grown overlooking their 12-yr olds looking at their porn stash before they've ever even dated a girl and then viewing young girls, our daughters, as just a means to relieve their urges because they're not old enough yet to have a mature relationship. I think our kids are forced to grow up too fast and handle things they shouldn't be but I'm speaking from emotion so my opinion means little.

I'm interested in what else you have to say. I'm also sensitive to the fact that I'm in your safe haven and I hope no one objects. If someone does, please let me know and I'll leave without any hard feelings.

My new lawnmower just came in an I've got 3/4 of an acre to mow. I mowed 2 strips, got grass got in the blades, tipped it a little to clean out the grass and whaddya know, white smoke! I had to google that one but I'm ok. It started again. In the back of my mind I'm still cursing a little that no one taught me about cars and everyday mechanics when I was a girl.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. And I absolutely think the guy in the video whose neighbor was belting his son during a game of

catch, he did the right thing, too.

I'm going to look at the language in your 2nd paragraph, and pick it apart a little.. I hope you don't mind:

most men are fundamentally good and decent. How could they not be? You don't want your daughters to be reduced to sexual objects, or abused, any more than mothers do.

Okay, let's see what you did there: No, no decent parent wants their kids abused. However, in that line you also conflated abuse with "reduced to sexual objects"... And I think it's worth examining what, specifically, that means. Are we talking about people being sexually attracted to them? As kids? As adults? Are we talking about choices our daughters may make when they're grown up? "Reduced to sexual objects" is one of those phrases that sounds like it means something, but I'm personally of the opinion that it is fundamentally meaningless.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=844

Obviously, some things are for adults and not for kids; nudity, violent video games, what have you. I will also say that teenage boys looking at porn or pictures of naked women, before they've had a relationship, is nothing new. For most of us, the urges kick in well before we've got the drivers license, which seems to be a precursor to most of us losing our virginity, at least it was in my day. Before we had internet porn, we had Penthouse, or the SI Swimsuit issue. Or the Sears Bra ads in the Sunday Paper (seriously) ... Teenage boys will go to extreme lengths to find pictures of naked women to masturbate to.

Seabeyond's anecdotes were hard to follow, but the implication was that the "bad" masculinity was tied to dads taking sons to hooters, that kind of thing. And I felt it was illuminating that her ideas of terrible things that were being done to boys in their upbringing, mostly had to do with the boys being allowed to do things that she, a woman, didn't approve of.

[Catherina]

42. I don't mind

It was a clumsy sentence because my mind was on the lawnmower but I did say *or*. I don't conflate being reduced to a sexual object with abuse especially since many women reduce themselves to sexual objects and are never abused.

What I had in mind was more like *do you want your 12 year old daughter to be some 13 yr old's sex toy?*

I'm not a boy so I don't know how you develop but I don't think 12 year olds are ready for intimate relationships, or anal sex, or oral sex, or group sex and these things are happening routinely.

There are many ways to raise children, some are more permissive but they work when a child has guidance and structure. What I get from Call To Men is that they're asking older men to provide that guidance for the kids.

I'm in over my head here Warren because I'm speaking from a purely emotional POV. I have no sons and can't relate. I also went to all-girls schools that had an emphasis on strong academics, sports and preparing women for professional careers. I can't relate to a lot of this, not even the girls having sex before 17 or 18. That perturbs me.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Hmm. Okay, my response.

do you want your 12 year old daughter to be some 13 yr old's sex toy?

Personally, i think that 12 and 13 are too young to be having sex, although why that situation would imply that the 12 yr old girl was the "sex toy" of the 13 yr old boy.. Romeo and Juliet were supposed to be about that age, i think, and the premise was not that the relationship was exploitative in one direction. But like i said, Shakespeare notwithstanding--- my opinion is that age is too young to have sex.

That said, statistically, boys in this country lose their virginity, on avg. at 16, girls at 15. This was borne out by my experience, back in the day.. I was 16, the girl i was with was 15. This was back when we were all supposed to be listening to Nancy Reagan and "just saying no"... Some of us just refused to get the memo. It was mutual, and while it may have been a little clumsy, i think there was no lasting emotional harm done to either of us. Shit, we're friends on facebook to this day.

And my experience was pretty typical of the crowd i ran in.

I think it is difficult, as a parent, to reconcile ourselves with the statistical likelihood that our kids will hit the same sort of sexual maturity we did, before we as aging parents are ready for them to. My attitude towards teaching my kids about it is the same regardless of gender: Sex is important, it is a meaningful act, it should be someone you care about, use protection, and certainly I'd be thrilled if you waited until you were at college (although i don't expect that to be the case). And dont do anything for the wrong reasons, like due to pressure or because you think it will make someone like you more.

I also hear a lot of hyperbole about how "kids today" are doing such n such or that its worse than it used to be. My inclination is to take it with a grain of salt. Parents and culture watchdogs have ALWAYS been aghast at what "these kids today" are doing, whether it is rock and roll in the 50s or wearing low cut togas in the time of Socrates. It sounds, to me, an awful lot like the desperate rationalizations drug warriors make, trying to convince boomers and Gen Xers who grew up smoking pot, to continue to support prohibition. "oh, but pot now is much worse" yadda yadda.

I don't buy it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. I appreciate your participation.

I'm also going to kind of deconstruct paragraph 2 as well, and I hope this doesn't sound like a pile-on, because my reaction is somewhat different from Warren D

I'm not picking up that there's anything fundamentally wrong with men. The point I got was that most men are fundamentally good and decent. How could they not be? You don't want your daughters to be reduced to sexual objects, or abused, any more than mothers do.

Is that the only metric that's important for a man to be considered fundamentally okay? (I know it's not - not consciously at least) But as a first reaction, it's worth examining; the first and most important value of a father is protecting their daughters perceived virtue.

That's my main issue with the video; the myriad problems with men are only issues to the extent that they manifest as insensitivity, disparagement and (too often) violence to women.

Maybe deal with the dominoes at the beginning rather than at the end. A guy who gets a poor education partly because of his incarcerated father, doesn't go to college which results in getting a poor paying job and frequent unemployment, which results in poverty for his family which causes marital stress which causes mutual IPV, which causes injury to her, which causes jail for him.

The paradigm "men suck" is the last domino which circles around to trip the first one. It's a self-propagating system.

[Catherina]

21. Texas was my big awakening about sexism

I don't think it's race-related either. I see it a lot in guys of all races. I *think* it boils down to what kind of male and female role models they had as kids. This crosses all racial and color lines.

I'm almost reluctant to post this video because it's another video about an African American incident but I think it's relevant.

Here's a kid who grew up around sexism and despite his abhorrence of it, he repeated that behavior when it was directed towards his mother, he repeated it.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. You couldn't pay me enough

to live in Texas, FWIW.

[Catherina]

28. Bad answer!

If I can't pay you enough to live there, will you pay me enough to move there?

I like Texas, things are very *direct* there and the barbecue is the BEST!

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Hey, to each his or her own.

Not for me. Some good music out of Austin, I'll grant you that.





Never noticed how much these guys look like each other, until now.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I'm curious as to the actual specifics of the incident or incidents you are talking about.

You say you are in Texas. I suspect that there is a big difference between, say, Texas and urban areas in Northern California or the Pacific NW, for instance.

But "the mom gets the comments from men"... what comments? What are the specifics of the incidents that lead you to feel you have a window into how other people are raising their kids?

I'm racking my brain to come up with anything resembling anything like that in our experience.. Only two incidents come to mind. One was before the birth of our son, during one of those childbirthing classes.. at one point the class discussion turned to circumcision; there was some good back and forth, and then one guy, a younger guy with a military crew cut, said "Ahhhhh, just cut him".

FWIW, we did NOT "just cut him". After our son was born both my wife and I, who for reasons of Jewish heritage mostly, had gone back and forth about it- decided not to do it.

The other incident took place at an airport, while we were waiting for a flight. Our son was maybe one yr. old, and he was climbing on my wife's lap, trying to get into a bag of pretzles or something.. not doing anything too disruptive, but for whatever reason there was a crotchety old guy sitting next to us, and he got all pissed off and looked at us and said something like "If I had done that when I was that age, I would have gotten a 'hot bottom'"... which we thought was weird for several reasons.

It was worth noting that he was on a different flight, I think to Idaho (but it may very well have been Texas)

[Warren DeMontague]

31. So really, to you, this is about porn, and not so much about men being told not to express emotion.

Big surprise. Well, if your intent is to come in here and try to advance, subtle or no, a pro-censorship, anti-sex agenda, you are going to be running smack dab up against the SOP of this group. Consider that your warning.

Beyond that, I believe that people -individuals- should be free to live as authentically as possible. Men- adult, hetero men- are often visually attracted to women. Men do not like to look at naked women because they are "programmed by the Patriarchy" to do it, men do not appreciate and feel physical attraction to attractive naked women because somehow our dads "tell us" to do it. Men don't like to look at naked women because we have been given some allegedly incorrect definition of masculinity.

That is an inane interpretation of reality, frankly. Men like to look at attractive naked women (or gay men like to look at attractive naked men) because it is a NATURAL, HEALTHY OUTGROWTH of human sexuality. Period.

If your brother- I'm trying to follow your post in a linear fashion, and having trouble doing so- if your brother is showing adult movies to a 2 and 4 year old, or "drinking with" them, that sounds to me like a "notify DCFS" situation.

As far as validating kids emotions, I'm in total agreement. But part of validating human experience is also not trying to shut down perfectly natural human desires. The anti-sex zealots and folks who somehow think that nudity and porn are unnatural expressions of some conspiratorial programming and not a simple outgrowth of basic human physiology, would do well to remember that instead of pursuing goofy moralistic crusades.


And the dad who hit the kid with the spoon on his birthday? I'd also file that under child abuse.

[seabeyond]

32. no. really it is not. it is so beyond that. but, then i am not surprised you get this. i will

delete. and be sure not to directly discuss a thing with you or participate in the forum regardless. you obviously have your agenda, if that is what you picked up in all this. read your title only.... if i am missing anything in your post... oh well. about done people telling me... " So really, to you, ..." and ignoring what i posted.

adios

[Warren DeMontague]

33. You could work on being a little more linear, frankly.

It's pretty hard to parse out what you're saying, but clear to me that it has something to do with Hooters and Nude Calendars being problematic emblems of masculinity.

Yes, delete, or be a little clearer.

[seabeyond]

34. there was a lot of instances about a lot of different things.

i brought up maybe ten or more. you pick two and give it to me. dismiss 95% of the post to focus on those two. your forum. i wont participate.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Do you think that men enjoying looking at naked women is a "problem" that needs correcting?

If so, you very well may be in the wrong place IMHO.

[seabeyond]

36. 2 and 4 yr old and 10 and 12 yr old are "men" to you? i think this would be another example of what

we are talking about. warren. you are posting, and i am trying to walk away. you are purposely misrepresenting what i posted. so, i have to respond because it is so outrageous. i dont want to miss up this thread. it is a good thread. i will leave. i will not come back in. please, quit posting outrageous misrepresentation of what i posted. i am trying to do right here.

i should have left my post, so it can be seen how outrageous you accusations are.

again, i was trying to do right.

i wont respond anymore.

i am really bothered you chose to do this on this thread. i actually thought your initial post was asking sincerely. i see i was wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I responded to that, upthread, although frankly your anecdote was non-linear and hard to understand.

But I think the question is legitimate, and I would like an answer to it:

do you think that adult men enjoying looking at adult naked women is a "problem" that needs correcting?

I ask, because whereas this thread obstensibly is about helping men escape from the so-called "man box" in terms of not being allowed to express emotion, etc. you have managed to allude to well-known tropes about "problems" around masculinity having to do with things like pin up calendars and Hooters.

No, I don't think adult things are appropriate for kids. But the question, because presumably you brought these things up as examples of the terrible influences which lead to "bad" masculinity, is relevant about adults.

So, yeah, I'd like a straightforward answer on that.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Here's an example of how NOT to raise a son (or any kid)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/09/anthony-sanchez-arrested-child-abuse_n_1583172.html

[Catherina]

16. That's terrible! Just reading the story was enough :( n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Yeah. Awful.

Good on the neighbor for doing something about it, though. That's the silver lining.

[Catherina]

22. I just watched it again

Oscar Lopez is doing exactly what Call To Men is asking.

Here's a youtube of that incident

I like the way they start asking "What would you do?" Lopez did the right thing.