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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 08:21 PM Jul 2012

Women still "can't have it all"? Have men EVER had it all?

Tell me how a man manages to earn enough money to raise a family AND manage to be a stay at home dad.

It seems to me that the question of how a woman can "have it all" is often discussed, but the question is never even asked for men.

Furthermore, the assumption that men don't really want to stay at home because -well, they are MEN, is insulting and unfair.

One somewhat separate, but related issue, is that largely in order to even attract a mate, men must prove themselves (usually) to be earners, successful men who can bring in money. You can show exceptions to this, but it is the norm in most societies.

My opinion is that any woman's movement that tries to readjust society so that they can "have it all" must necessarily address the lack of freedom that men have (arguably LESS freedom than women in the "have it all" department).

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Women still "can't have it all"? Have men EVER had it all? (Original Post) Bonobo Jul 2012 OP
It was just assumed that men had it all 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #1
"having it all" misses the point. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #2
"having it all"? Oh, it can be done. Real easy. Men can "have it all", and so can women. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #3
Yes I think this is a problem, too. MadrasT Jul 2012 #4
Two things are going to have to change in our society 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #5
True true. n/t MadrasT Jul 2012 #6
Im a "think outside the box" type of person, and so is my wife. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #7
I think most people dont even know what "it all" is, much less how to "have" it. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #8
 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
1. It was just assumed that men had it all
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 08:35 PM
Jul 2012

back in the 1950s or some other mythical time.

No one bothered to actually, you know, *ask* men.

Have a good career? Great, chances are you don't know what your kids look like.

Father of the year? Great, chances are your promotion is going to that other guy.

The whole argument on "why can't women have it all" is pretty silly.


Because no one can. Not men. Not women. Not hermophrodites. We all have to make sacrifices. If you put more time/effort in to your career your free time/family life will suffer. And vice-versa.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
2. "having it all" misses the point.
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 09:37 PM
Jul 2012

It is possible to have a fulfilling life, provided "all" isn't the defining criteria for "fulfilling".

It is important for each of us to decide realistically what we want.

IMHO, It's good that social roles are in flux. And now that young urban women make more than men, marrying up is no longer an option. Since she's going to be the breadwinner, that frees up the men to seek their fulfillment.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
3. "having it all"? Oh, it can be done. Real easy. Men can "have it all", and so can women.
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 06:49 AM
Jul 2012

You just need to be stinkin' rich, and you can have whatever you want.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
4. Yes I think this is a problem, too.
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 09:06 AM
Jul 2012

And I agree with your statements:

Furthermore, the assumption that men don't really want to stay at home because -well, they are MEN, is insulting and unfair.


And:

My opinion is that any woman's movement that tries to readjust society so that they can "have it all" must necessarily address the lack of freedom that men have (arguably LESS freedom than women in the "have it all" department).


I think the idea that women should even try to "have it all" is ridiculous. I think women need to make choices about what is important to them and understand that there is a consequence to making certain choices. That perspective may not be popular in some circles, but it is what I believe.

I totally understand your frustration with this issue:

One somewhat separate, but related issue, is that largely in order to even attract a mate, men must prove themselves (usually) to be earners, successful men who can bring in money. You can show exceptions to this, but it is the norm in most societies.


It is interesting to me, as a high-income female, how uncomfortable and tricky it is to have relationships with men who earn less than me (which is most men I know). It is a drastic shift in the traditional dynamic and usually takes some degree of personal work and a lot of communication to adjust to. It is probably not as hard as it would have been 30 or 40 years ago, but it's still a bit of an issue. How much a man earns has never been a factor to me because I was raised to be completely self sufficient (so that a relationship could be a choice) but I do hear from a lot of men I know that they have felt rejected on the dating circuit for not making enough $$. That seems so shallow and materialistic to me. I want a partner, not a provider.
 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
5. Two things are going to have to change in our society
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 09:59 AM
Jul 2012

or else leave lot's of people miserable: women being unwilling to marry *beneath* them and men being unwilling to marry older women.

The fact that it takes time to be successful so rich people tend to be a bit older means that those with money are necessarily going to be older. If men are perfectly willing to marry down but women are not (and women are graduating college at greater rates) that necessarily will create a surplus of older women with no suitable mates under the current system.

Either that or we'll content ourselves to being a largely childless or single mother based society of very lonely people.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
7. Im a "think outside the box" type of person, and so is my wife.
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 05:50 PM
Jul 2012

Thats one of the many reasons we are good together.

She has a couple female friends, however, mostly situated on the East Coast, who are in that "im getting older and why cant i find a man" thing... I dont get inolved except i know that a big part of the problem is, theyre not looking or a man, they are looking for a man*

*makes over $$$, advanced degree from ivy league or comprable university, not short, not bald, etc etc

I think too many people are worried about "how things look" as opposed to how THEY feel. I grew up on "follow your bliss" and i was never much inclined to give a shit what other people thought, so it seems weird to me. And I also notice that the people who get married for reasons like "this is the right person- $$$ or other superficial reasons" alone, those marriages fall apart.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
8. I think most people dont even know what "it all" is, much less how to "have" it.
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 05:54 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Sat Jul 7, 2012, 03:27 AM - Edit history (1)

It is interesting to me, as a high-income female, how uncomfortable and tricky it is to have relationships with men who earn less than me (which is most men I know).


Probably depends on the circles you run in. Geography may play a part as well. As i allude to upthread, ive noticed that the East coast and midwest, to me, seem more rigid in terms of those sorts of "rules".
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