Sex with a sleeping drunk woman IS rape.

[Bonobo]

I knew it when I was in college and I know it now.

I knew there were some nasty, rat-bastard frat creeps doing it in their little nazi enclaves and so did the rest of campus -mostly.

But the people I knew all knew it was wrong and there has never been an inch of doubt in my mind how cowardly and disgusting that behavior is. Especially the guys who tried to get them drunk so they could do it -that is planned out, premeditated shit so is doubly nauseating and non-human.

I just wanted to say that here, in the Men's Group so we are all perfectly clear on it.

[opiate69]

1. Agreed, on all counts.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. Yes. 100%. Without question, without exception, every time.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Personal anecdote to add that IN NO WAY MINIMIZES THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE TOPIC

back when I was in college, I lived with my then-girlfriend for a year, we were flush with the hormones of youth and didn't have internet or even cable tv, so we spent an awful lot of time doing what young hormone-flush college students who don't actually feel like going to class are wont to do...

There was an incident I remember where I came home drunk and passed out on my back (no I am not making this up) but apparently particular priapic portions of my person had not gotten the beer memo.

Girlfriend was bored, and... well, you can figure out the rest.

I was like "man I had the weirdest dream"

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. The rat bastard creeps in question need prosecution, not orientation. n/t

[caraher]

5. redqueen linked to a very good blog post in GD

"Meet the Predators" (well worth reading)

It runs through a few studies that basically point out that only a few men rape, but that most of those who do will rape repeatedly. And that alleged confusion regarding consent is largely a non-issue; these "predators" deliberately seek out or create these situations in order to take advantage of them.

The blogger's main recommendation is that we men be alert to this kind of behavior and, absent some way of magically removing the rapists from our society, at least make it as socially unpleasant as possible for those who do prey on the defenseless.

Saying it is rape and we know it is a good start. The next step is demolishing the "little nazi enclaves."

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. The best way of making it a socially unpleasant as possible is to prosecute them. n/t

[caraher]

7. True

But that's not always possible for a variety of reasons, as I'm sure you know.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Question: How do these sociological explanations gel with the statistical decrease in rape numbers?

Is the "rape culture" improving? Are men getting better? Have these recommendations already been implemented?

Because rapes have declined markedly along with other forms of violent crime in the past 3 decades. What would you argue is driving that?

[caraher]

12. I honestly don't know

What is the magnitude of the decrease? Whatever it is, I'm sure you'll agree there's more rape happening than we should be comfortable accepting (as would be true with other crimes of personal violence).

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Absolutely. One is too many.

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:42 AM - Edit history (1)

If you look up "Estimated Forcible Rape Rape" (per 1000) on the DOJ's uniform crime reporting tool

http://ucrdatatool.gov

you will see that from 1980-2010 here is the rate per 100,000 persons:

1980 36.8
1981 36.0
1982 34.0
1983 33.8
1984 35.7
1985 36.8
1986 38.1
1987 37.6
1988 37.8
1989 38.3
1990 41.1
1991 42.3
1992 42.8
1993 41.1
1994 39.3
1995 37.1
1996 36.3
1997 35.9
1998 34.5
1999 32.8
2000 32.0
2001 31.8
2002 33.1
2003 32.3
2004 32.4
2005 31.8
2006 31.0
2007 30.0
2008 29.7
2009 29.1
2010 27.5

I'm trying to get openoffice to graph it out for me, but it's becoming more trouble than it's worth. I refuse to pay for the full version of excel. As you can see, the rate per 1000 in 1980 was 36.8, it peaked in 1992 at 42.8 and the 2010 rate was 27.5

[Upton]

13. Rapists like other vioilent criminals should be jailed..

since rapes have been declining and even the dodgy piece you linked to admits it's a small number of repeat offenders, I reject the notion that there's some kind of "rape culture"...

I also reject the idea that if we don't go around in real life word policing fellow males, we're somehow emboldening rapists..

[caraher]

14. I didn't see a call for "word policing" there

More like a call to step up and say something about specific predatory behaviors, rather than ignoring or laughing them off. I'm far less concerned with which words someone is using than I do about whether they treat others with the respect we're all due as human beings.

I agree that it's significant that we're dealing mainly with a population of repeat offenders. The question is, how do they get away with it as often as they do? Yes, they should be prosecuted... but the prosecution rate is tiny compared to even conservative estimates of the incidence of rape. Much of that is due to various forms of self-blame on the part of victims. Would it be easier for them to step forward if men were much more vocal about the fact, on which we all agree, that the person responsible for the rape is the rapist - period?

None of the women in my life who have told me they were raped prosecuted their assailant. None. It's pretty hard to jail someone when there's nobody to provide evidence against them, and that lack of evidence is primarily the result of cultural factors making it difficult to bring charges.

[Major Nikon]

16. There aren't many people in society more despised than rapists

It's not something that a predator is going to advertise. I've only known one person that I thought was a rapists, and not from any direct admission but just because of the attitude towards women he had. If he wasn't a rapist it was probably just due to lack of opportunity. The statistics suggest that I've known far more that I just didn't know were. Perhaps there are certain circles where men freely admit to sexual assault, but none that I've ever been in.

Some segments of feminism just seem to take the idea of "rape culture" to its extreme. Certainly attitudes that blame women for rape are wrong. Certainly media that portrays rape as acceptable behavior are wrong. However, the idea that pretty much every aspect of culture is driving rape is a concept that is a bit harder to grasp and I'm just not sure they can connect the dots. The idea that certain feminists have that things like porn and language encourages rape just haven't proved true.

I think if people really want to reduce the incidence of rape, a good place to start would be to put effort into figuring out why the rates of rape went down in the first place. I'm pretty sure it wasn't because media got less vulgar or sexualized, yet you still have those who claim that is the miracle cure. I'm just not sure how productive that is.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

8. No doubt about it

And even guys who supposedly "have no problem getting laid" engage in it.

Went to college with the grandson of a famous actor who one night openly joked he was going to take advantage of such a woman at a party. Fortunately, he spent the rest of the evening wondering how he ended up in the street running his ass off from a group of pissed off guys.

[radicalliberal]

9. Speaking as the father of a university coed, ...

... thank you very much for your declaration.

[ElboRuum]

11. Yes, it is. n/t

[Gore1FL]

17. Rape is Rape

Somehow having that position makes me misogynistic.

Maybe having a penis makes me misogynistic and my actual positions on women's issues are immaterial.

[Bonobo]

19. What does your screen name mean?

Are you financially one tenth of one percent?