This message was self-deleted by its author

[Warren DeMontague]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Warren DeMontague) on Fri May 18, 2012, 01:21 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

1. You're reading that thread too, huh?

I discovered this group a few months back.
It very quickly became clear to me that it's not a safe haven.
It's monitored.
I don't post here.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. I agree with you.

There are issues which pertain to men which should be allowed to be discussed without derision. I remember when the group was proposed and the "outcry" on what this group would become. It shouldn't be allowed as a "he-man woman haters club," but given a number of topics, I don't think it has really become such a thing.

[Upton]

4. Agreed..

but it would appear you're fighting an uphill battle. Though the women have five separate groups, the usual suspects (radfem Dworkinites), seem to believe we men aren't even entitled to even one.

[opiate69]

5. definitely agreed.

[tech_smythe]

6. Seconded

I will probably stop posting here completely however.
I'm not a misogynist, despite what many trolls think.
I just want a level playing field, that means pointing out the bad stuff on the other side too.
but that doesn't seem to be a discussion that is possible, even in a men's group.

I'm sorry if i've caused unhappiness, and moreover problems for this group.
I wish only that there BE a conversation, which it would seem we are denied.

Good luck with the group, I hope it can survive.

[HappyMe]

7. Pardon my interruption...

I think you guys need to make it crystal clear that this is a safe haven. I thought that ALL Groups were safe havens, but I guess not.

Tighten up the group whatever it's called wording, and consider a ban list.


Cheers,
the very female HappyMe

[Kaleva]

8. EarlG has PPR'd on of your regulars

A safe haven does not protect anyone from Admin. I just want to say that it may behoove you all to directly challenge posts here that over the top. Silence gives the appearance of agreeing. Other then that, when looking over the various discussions here, I don't see anything wrong.

[opiate69]

9. one of our regulars?

I don`t seem to recall seeing any posts by him prior to two days ago or so. In any case, thanks for your support. I certainly can`t speak for everyone here, but as far as I`m concerned, anybody who is interested in an open, honest, free exchange of ideas should be welcomed here.

[seabeyond]

13. he and lumberjack were the reasons for the forum. they did the work.

and with support he could have been brought to balance instead of allowed to go over the top. a discussion on what he actually posted could have been helpful and healing. i am sorry to see this man go. i am sorry he didnt have the support he needed. and there are plenty of his posts here. i feel like i fell short, myself. i should have tried to connect sooner and i didnt. he wanted this forum available for the men because he did a lot of self reflecting and thought maybe with support he could be more, and others might need that support too. he had the best intentions for this forum.

[opiate69]

14. as I understand it, though...

he was tombstoned back on DU2, so he shouldn`t have been here anyway.

[seabeyond]

15. you said you hadnt seen him here but two days ago. i was giving you info. nt

[opiate69]

18. I know... wasn`t trying to start another flamewar

[Warren DeMontague]

21. He was a repeat return troll who probably has other sockpupppet identities

much like some of the other versions of that sort of critter that have passed and still do pass through these parts.

So I wouldn't worry too much about not seeing "him" around, "he" is probably all over the place.

[stevenleser]

24. Happy to agree with you sea...

I dont know what motivated tech-smythe to be as upset as he is/was with women.

In my response to his troubling post about DV where he blamed the victims, I tried to gently walk him back from his opinion that "women have special knowledge about how to push buttons...".

But hey, he was wrong and what he said was pretty awful. I wish I knew what caused him to think that way.

[Kaleva]

16. He's been here since at least Feb.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114329

[opiate69]

17. I stand corrected, then.

In any case, just for the record, I agree with the hiding of his posts and with his PPRing. This group has a big enough target on its back.

[Kaleva]

19. Well, your post made me question my own eyes so I had to double check!

And it's true that this entire group has a big target on its back. I feel that there are a few members who'd love to see this group disappear. Nothing will change that attitude but if regulars here are seen to hold all to higher standards, then the group will survive and flourish.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. an accurate analogy. nt

[ElboRuum]

12. I would have alerted...

...however, I don't come to this group every day. The posting frequency here seems to indicate that this is still somewhat of a nascent group.

The first I heard of that thread was through the H+M thread, and while I considered the OP to be a bit over-the-top, I'd consider it within bounds for a group which has some latitude to discuss issues of this sort. The PPR for the one was very deserved, however.

[stevenleser]

25. I was sort of hoping we could educate him.

I otherwise found the DV OP and threads very interesting, particularly as I was a victim multiple times in my second marriage.

I think there is every possibility that DV against men is more common than the other way around and statistics and research seem to indicate it occurs at least in similar numbers.

And I can tell you from personal experience that people around you do not have the same reaction to a woman hitting a man as they do to the opposite.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. There were at least 4 repeat sockpuppet/troll/zombie disruptors PPR'd in the old Feminists group.

See: Survivoreesta, Sargasso_Sea, Feldspar, Remember Me

I'm not responsible for what some half-wit troll writes, and I didn't even see the thread in question until it popped up in meta.

[Kaleva]

29. I'm not suggesting that each individual here is responsible for all that's posted in the group.

The thread itself is not the main issue. What appears to me to be the issue was the several month tolerance of a "half-wit" troll. A troll who supposedly did much to help create this group in the first place. Yet it appears that no one here made the connection. Or if they did, it was "Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more!".

Appearance is everything.

[Kaleva]

33. well, if you volunteer to host a "safe haven",...

I'd suggest you read and get to know the FAQ for starters for which you said you haven't read. I'd also suggest getting to know the regulars. You said you've spent no more then 5 minutes over the last few months interacting with a now PPR'd regular. A person who is the primary reason there's a mega thread over in H&M talking about this group.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I strongly disagree with your collective guilt implication.

We are each accountable for what we say. Period.

[ElboRuum]

10. After seeing that thread in H+M...

I am convinced that it in fact SHOULD BE.

Sorry to anyone that this upsets, I want to discuss issues of all types relevant to me in both a broad general sense and in the many perspectives that are personally relevant to me. It is why I come to DU.

I can do this with minimal interference with every perspective except one: gender. Proceeding from anything but the dogmatism of second-wave (or whatever "wave" it happens to be) feminist perspective is just an invitation for a pile-on. And I believe firmly that there is more in heaven and earth that what is in that philosophy. Bear in mind that I have no issue with any feminist individual on this board, and it is not meant as a slight to those who do embrace that philosophy, my only suggestion is that it is not the only thing or the only way, and we need a place to explore these and other things that directly or indirectly impact, negatively or positively, men's lives.

Men need a place to discuss their issues with freedom from negative interloping from people who disagree that men have any relevant issues, that they need to address them or work through them, or that they should go somewhere else to do it. I know that most of the feminists who have lurked and participated in this group have done so largely productively, understanding that this is "our" place. I thank them profusely for this understanding.

However, given the thread in H+M which just broad-stroked the entire group for the implication that men don't have real issues, that what issues they have are laughable and small and whinging, and that we deserve to be laughed at, I fully suspect that safe haven status is required for this group to be valuable for the purposes it's intended. Regardless of the nonsense in that thread, it is clear that some latitude be extended for the ability to discuss the issue. Several posts in that thread were thought provoking, even if the signal to noise ratio of the thread was quite low.

[opiate69]

11. Well stated, Elbo

[MadrasT]

22. Hi Warren

I just wanted to pop in and say that this feminist fully supports your group being a safe haven.

It frustrates me to hear feminists/women minimize men's issues with dismissive statements that basically sound like "male privilege so sit down and STFU already." That is not cool with me.

This is the only place where men (and their supporters) could hope to have a conversation where you can avoid that.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. I will also add that i dont consider myself a "mens rights activist", whatever that means.

I consider myself a strong proponent for equal rights for all, which includes a strong component of personal freedom and choice in all life matters, including reproductive, end of life, etc.

My point about safe haven status- and lets be honest, we all know where the lines of disagreement are- is that i understand why (self described) 2nd wavers want a controlled ideological area where certain parmeters can be met. I get that. I do think, however, its legitimate to have a space over here where many of us on the other side of some of those debates, including men, mens allies, other wave feminists, etc. can legitimately express our views without being reciprocally lectured by the folks who have already demonstrated that they will brook no dissent in their own group.


Thanks for the heads up.

[stevenleser]

26. I think that Liberals/Progressives should support all groups being happy and liberated

IMHO men clearly have situations where they are discriminated against. That opinion coexists in my mind completely and with no conflict with the fact that women have many more situations where they are discriminated against and various other groups do as well.

I think talking through those issues and understanding how men fit into a movement that removes injustice and inequality for all is extremely important.

[MadrasT]

32. Your last paragraph is vital IMO

If women's roles in society are redefined, it means men's roles are also shifting all over the place. I know my progressive male friends are perplexed about who they are even supposed to "be" as men in this world.

As a gender neutral person, I can't relate strongly to binary gendered issues (except ones that relate to me being "seen" as a woman because I am female-bodied), but I have tremendous compassion for everyone.

Gender and gender roles are highly charged topics. Everyone should feel safe discussing *however* those are manifested for him or her (or whatever the PGP) self.

I'd start a gender neutral group but it would have like 3 members, LOL.

[HuskiesHowls]

37. Uhh, yes, you are absolutely correct that men are discriminated against!!

And, its nothing new. Go back to the good old days--watch some episodes of Ozzie and Harriet and you'll see how often Ozzie is made to look like he has no clue as to what's going on. Fast forward to Leave it to Beaver, and see who is most often right in situations (and it isn't Ward!!). Television shows are rife with situations that put men down, and we're so used to it, we don't even see it! I don't mention new shows because I don't watch sitcoms anymore, history and science are so much more informative.

IMHO, the best show that has been on cable in recent years was canceled. I'm talking about Men of A Certain Age. It showed men actually dealing with the problems of life, and dealing with them well. It showed men dealing with divorce, and changing careers and how to relate to family. It showed men, as men can be, as most men really are: struggling with life, doing what seems right, and not getting much help.

There are so many, many ways men are discriminated against, and no one notices.

(And I'm not even considering the current threads in H&M!!! )

[HuskiesHowls]

27. Agreed!!

Any men here who have been to a gathering of men event know that it is for MEN! When I first saw this group, I was hoping (in vain, I find) that it would be a group in which discussions would include the male spirit, and how to access the male archetypes.

Discussions about what rites of passage we have lived, how they affected us and helped us to grow have been non-existent. A discussion like that would be overrun with posts of derision and name-calling. Not to mention which, some people would gladly alert on it just for something to do.

Now, having said that, and rereading my opening line, I know that there are times that female input to a discussion can be very helpful. However, that needs to be done respectfully, and with caring for all involved.

My 2 cents worth...

[Warren DeMontague]

28. That sounds like a reasonable attitude.

For me, my rites of passage mostly involved jerry garcia being on a stage somewhere nearby, but i can relate.

[a2liberal]

31. I agree (n/t)

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. I'm of two minds on the safe haven idea

"Safe haven" is not a license to violate the tos, and my bias leans toward expecting people to defend theit assertions.

However, if people are hesitant to post here because it feels unsafe, I wouldn't strongly object to rewriting the sop.

Be aware of the direction given to hosts; their only real authority is to lock posts which are outside the group sop.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Deleting because this has been essentially answered.