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redqueen

(115,103 posts)
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:01 AM Aug 2012

Is Putting Boys and Girls in Separate Classrooms Legal?

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2012/08/sex-segregation-schools-aclu

Hundreds of public schools are segregating kids by sex, citing discredited research on learning differences.

At the Van Devender middle school in Wood County, West Virginia, girls and boys learn in separate classrooms. The girls' rooms are lit with dimmer light than those of the boys. They are also kept at warmer temperatures. Girls must sit still, at shared desks. Boys get individual desks and are allowed to move around, sit on beanbag chairs, even lie on the floor. If girls fidget, they're sent to the boys' classroom—where they can't participate in the lessons, and must instead sit facing the wall. The school motto: "Van Devender Middle School: Where Gender Matters."

The school claims that its sex-segregated classrooms are a scientifically proven way to boost academic performance. According to the American Civil Liberties Union, not only are they not scientific, they're illegal. Last week,the organization filed a federal suit (PDF) against the Van Devender school, alleging that its single-sex classrooms violate Title IX, as well as the 14thAmendment's equal protection clause. (Not to mention that they diminish the quality of students' education.)

The case is led by ACLU cooperating attorney Amy Katz, who's got her own spin on the school's motto. "[Kids] are getting the message that the single most important thing in this place is whether you're a boy or a girl," she says. "I like to say, 'Van Devender: Where Gender Matters, more than anything else.'" At a court hearing yesterday, the ACLU's request for a restraining order to prevent the school from splitting sexes when classes start this Thursday was denied—so Van Devender will enter the school year with its single-sex program intact. (The program can still get cut off down the line; the ACLU has another hearing on the case next week.)

...


Lots more at the link.
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Is Putting Boys and Girls in Separate Classrooms Legal? (Original Post) redqueen Aug 2012 OP
In public schools, no, because of the equal protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment. no_hypocrisy Aug 2012 #1
So charter schools could not do this sort of thing? BanzaiBonnie Aug 2012 #2
A cogent legal argument could be made if they take a dime of taxpayer money. no_hypocrisy Aug 2012 #3
Apparently hundreds of schools are starting these kinds of programs. redqueen Aug 2012 #4
It's perfectly legal... so long as it isn't the only option. FBaggins Aug 2012 #5
Has the issue been adjudicated whether or not it's constitutional? no_hypocrisy Aug 2012 #11
It depends on how it's implemented. redqueen Aug 2012 #13
It depends on whether or not you side with Scalia. FBaggins Aug 2012 #16
If they do this in my grandkids school I will march down there bkkyosemite Aug 2012 #6
Yeah, that part stuck out for me, too. redqueen Aug 2012 #10
That's not what it is for Goblinmonger Aug 2012 #20
This can't be legal in public schools ... TBF Aug 2012 #7
I find it alarming that such drastic changes are being implemented redqueen Aug 2012 #9
My children and grandchildren bkkyosemite Aug 2012 #8
It's patently ridiculous. redqueen Aug 2012 #12
Well, for years we had boys' and girls' schools, and... TreasonousBastard Aug 2012 #14
Exactly. redqueen Aug 2012 #17
I've heard LWolf Aug 2012 #15
I found this summary informative and helpful redqueen Aug 2012 #18
That study LWolf Aug 2012 #21
I don't think it should be legal. Starry Messenger Aug 2012 #19
I think it is legal.... RobertAustin Sep 2012 #22

no_hypocrisy

(46,070 posts)
1. In public schools, no, because of the equal protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:04 AM
Aug 2012

In private schools, yes.

Gender segregation goes against the prohibition of "Separate But Equal" if the schools are funded by public taxes.

no_hypocrisy

(46,070 posts)
3. A cogent legal argument could be made if they take a dime of taxpayer money.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:11 AM
Aug 2012

Same thing with teaching religion in a charter school. They aren't entirely "private" entities.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
5. It's perfectly legal... so long as it isn't the only option.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:43 AM
Aug 2012

(also assuming that the quality of education does not differ)

Whether it's a good idea or not is a different discussion.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
13. It depends on how it's implemented.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 12:10 PM
Aug 2012

The justification, the ability of students to opt out, etc. play a part in determining if these programs are legal.

Clearly, the one in WV isn't legal. Reading the list of states where the ACLU has challenged these programs is rather telling.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
16. It depends on whether or not you side with Scalia.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 12:32 PM
Aug 2012

The VMI ruling established some standards (which VMI failed to meet). There was only one dissenting vote (Scalia's) which claimed that the decision would end sex-segregated classrooms at the lower levels. The majority opinion (Ginsburg) said that he saw "fire where there is no flame"

bkkyosemite

(5,792 posts)
6. If they do this in my grandkids school I will march down there
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:47 AM
Aug 2012

and give them hell. This is like schools (if there can be schools) where women are treated as if they are second class citizens. School rooms are dimly lit and girls have to share desks and cannot squirm ....give me a break! Not my granddaughter!

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
10. Yeah, that part stuck out for me, too.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:59 AM
Aug 2012

They can't set different limits or rules for behavior. That is just incredibly unfair.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
20. That's not what it is for
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 05:40 PM
Aug 2012

and that is not what is expected.

I don't know if I buy into it, but they find that if they are not with the boys, the girls actually achieve at a higher level because they don't feel the need to live up (or down, I guess) to the expectation of their male peers. And the boys also achieve at a higher level because they aren't trying to impress the girls.

TBF

(32,041 posts)
7. This can't be legal in public schools ...
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:49 AM
Aug 2012

I will say that whenever we separated into groups of boy/girls and did things separately in classes (esp. gym) I often felt more confident and comfortable. But the kicker is that once they separate everyone they can then decide to fund differently or cut things. And it's not always good to be separate - as long as there are two genders on the planet you are going to have to deal with everyone at some point so you may as well get used to that.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
9. I find it alarming that such drastic changes are being implemented
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:57 AM
Aug 2012

based on such flimsy evidence. It seems like simply a way to pander to people seeking an easy solution to a complex problem.

bkkyosemite

(5,792 posts)
8. My children and grandchildren
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:54 AM
Aug 2012

mingled played and went to school with boys and girls. It's called socializing. Let's hmmm I have two toddler grandchildren in the other room one a boy and one a girl. Maybe I should separate them from watching PBS...one in a dimly lit room and one on a bean bag or trampoline in another room watching the dinosaur train. How ridiculous is this!

p.s. the spellcheck here did not catch my word mispelled...dinosaur






redqueen

(115,103 posts)
12. It's patently ridiculous.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
Aug 2012

What worries me is the way it seems to be codifying sexist stereotypes in academia.

First creationism and now this?!

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
14. Well, for years we had boys' and girls' schools, and...
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 12:23 PM
Aug 2012

it seemed everyone did a little better because of fewer hormonal distractions. Girls especially seemed to do better at all girls schools and sometimes women's colleges.

Then that pretty much stopped, for whatever reasons. I have no idea what the latest is on educational attainment when you segregate the sexes. I have no idea how this fits into "separate but equal" constitutionally, but if it works it would hopefully be OK.

BUT, the way these assholes are doing it is just plain wrong. They seem to have no interest in doing this to give the girls a good learning environment but rather they feel the girls don't deserve as good an education as the boys, and the Talibanian bastids should be taken to task for punishing girls just for being girls.



redqueen

(115,103 posts)
17. Exactly.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 01:21 PM
Aug 2012

It can make sense, it can be helpful, but easing these restrictions has opened the door to this kind of nonsense. It's good we have the ACLU to help parents to combat it.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
15. I've heard
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 12:27 PM
Aug 2012

that there's some research out there that supports segregating genders; I'm skeptical and have not yet checked it out for myself. IIR, it has something to do with girls feeling academically safer without boys, especially in math. Hence my skepticism. I might not be remembering correctly, though. If it were likely to happen in my district or region or state, it would probably be higher on my priority list. As a middle school teacher

Regardless of what that research might say, ANY type of structure, format, philosophy, or methodology can be used well or misused or abused.

Based on your link, it sounds like this particular school is abusing the concept, as well as displaying blatant ignorance and/or bigotry concerning gender expectations. I think the ACLU has a good case.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
18. I found this summary informative and helpful
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 01:23 PM
Aug 2012
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/05/03105933/8

It's old and from Scotland though, I just ran across it while looking for other material.


It seems to me that the increasing improvement in math performance among girls would indicate that it isn't single sex classes that are needed...

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
21. That study
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
Aug 2012

seems to suggest that single gender classrooms are to address expectations based on gender stereotyping: girls as passive, as "helpers," boys as over-active, etc..

It certainly doesn't offer any substantive reason to segregate by gender!

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
19. I don't think it should be legal.
Thu Aug 23, 2012, 04:14 PM
Aug 2012

If parents want single-gender classes, they can send their child to private school. (I went to girls school one year and hated it, just for the record...)

There's some more on this here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/11397583

RobertAustin

(23 posts)
22. I think it is legal....
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 07:55 PM
Sep 2012

I think it is legal -- and I also think it is a horrible idea.

And now, I will go completely off-topic. (Hey, I warned you, at least.) I have a petition to Congress to cut the pay of every public school administrator in America. It explains why this will help schools everywhere. Here's the link: https://www.change.org/petitions/the-c-a-p-education-reform-proposal-save-america-s-schools-by-cutting-administrators-pay-with-federal-legislation

If you agree with it, please sign it, and then please spread it to others.

To return to the previous topic now, I have taught a few single-gender classes. I absolutely HATED them. It's just a bad idea. Period.

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