a very different take on the education debate- this american life

[mopinko]

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/474/back-to-school

[SharonAnn]

1. Yes, it was. And I've wondered if we shouldn't create a "Parent Start" like Head Start

for some of the families who are on Public Assistance.

Even to the point of having the parents and children in "school" for at least half a day, learning parenting and coaching techniques.

Graduates might then be hired as Day Care workers, keeping their children with them if possible, so that other parents could get affordable child care while they have other jobs that take them away from their children. And available and affordable child care, especially during evening and night shifts, is extremely hard to find.

Learning to parent, especially for someone who had a lack of role modeling, would be a tremendous benefit for the children and help their future success in life.

[mopinko]

2. one of my favorite gov. dean programs in vt-

everyone who has a baby in vermont is asked if they would like to have a home visit from a nurse in the first 6 weeks. if you say no, fine.
but most mom's said yes, and many cases of postpartum depression, domestic violence, hunger, all manner of problems were spotted quickly and addresses. so easy, so cheap, so effective. nah, can't have that kind of socialist intrusive government around here.

[TexasBushwhacker]

3. Why not have a class in high school?

I agree, offering something like this for people on PA would be great, but I've always thought they should have some kind of "Life 101" class in public school, either in 8th grade or 9th grade because that's when big discipline and truancy problems start happening and that leads to dropping out. Here's what I would include, in no particular order:

1) Sex education, contraception, disease prevention, rape prevention

2) Career exploration

3) Nutrition

4) Household budgeting

5) Child care, including non-violent discipline

6) Non-violent conflict resolution

7) Basic skills for the working world - punctuality, respect, professional dress and behavior

8) Research on colleges and financial aid

9) Drugs, tobacco and alcohol

[HiPointDem]

4. Or maybe we could just employ them in decent paying jobs, how about that?

Poor people don't need to learn "parenting techniques" and "coaching techniques" and "nutrition education" and "Life 101" & all the other crap the upper middle class wants to foist on them because of their deep-seated belief that poor people are DEFECTIVE and INFERIOR and don't live right.

Domestic colonialism, the same attitudes the colonial subjects had toward the colonized: take up the white man's burden oyez oyez

You might not know, but people on public assistance are ALREADY required to work and take classes for their miserable benefits -- up to 30 hours a week. "Work activities" = coming into the welfare office to use their computers to do job searches (driving miles, one-way, can be at least up to 40 miles, and that's from personal knowledge), AND NO EXCUSES about your broken-down car or sick kid.

Mandatory classes on resume writing (even if you have a PhD) etc.

To count toward a State’s work participation rate, single parents must participate in work activities for an average of 30 hours per week, or an average of 20 hours per week if they have a child under age six. Two-parent families must participate in work activities for an average of 35 hours a week or, if they receive Federal child care assistance, 55 hours a week. Failure to participate in work requirements can result in a reduction or termination of a family’s benefits.

Work Activities – Activities that count toward a State’s participation rates are (some restrictions may apply):

unsubsidized or subsidized employment
work experience
on-the-job training
job search and job readiness assistance – not to exceed 6 weeks in a 12-month period and no more than 4 consecutive weeks (but up to 12 weeks if a State meets certain conditions)
community service
vocational educational training – not to exceed 12 months
job skills training related to work
education directly related to employment
satisfactory secondary school attendance
providing child care services to individuals who are participating in community service.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/opa/fact_sheets/tanf_factsheet.html

[AnneD]

5. I respectfully disagree....

Of course, decent paying jobs are essential, but we are now facing generational poverty. I see first hand the effects of kids being raised by clueless kids. Chips, sodas, and cookies give to shut the kid up instead of giving the child attention. I am not necessarily blaming Mom. She is exhausted from working her two low wage jobs since sperm donor checked out and not longer helps with support

By the time I see the kids, they are filled with rage and take meds to make it through their school day.

[HiPointDem]

6. Respectfully:

1) There's always been generational poverty. Nothing to do with people giving kids soda, it has to do with the structure of the economy.

2) Kids don't become rage-filled because of drinking soda. Telling parents not to give their kids soda won't prevent rage-filled kids, nor will it keep parents from giving their kids soda. Nor will it bring people out of poverty.

3) Some people on assistance may give their kids lots of soda, as some parents not on assistance may. But it's only parents on assistance that (some) people want to force en masse into 'classes' about such things, whether they actually give their kids soda or not.

Ergo, it ain't about the soda, it's about their position as recipients of assistance & the assumption that because they are on assistance, there must be something wrong with them -- as well as the assumption that we, their betters, know what it is & are just the folks to teach them.

[AnneD]

7. I was merely using the soda as an example.....

But the children raising children is real and parenting classes are vital. I handled 3 teen pregnancies last year. In 2 cases their mothers were less than 18 years older. Despite the common misperception, you are not born knowing what to do. The behavior is modeled by both your mom or dad, and grandparents or aunts and uncles. In this age of nuclear families, this modeling is not as frequent and the children are suffering.

It is not all about chips and soda, that is just the most evident, but it is about bonding, socialization, and children getting what they need to grow into secure and responsible members of society.



http://www.npr.org/2012/09/04/160258240/children-succeed-with-character-not-test-scores?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20120909

The portion about the grooming in rat pups is the most relevant part to our discussion.


http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=160172337&m=160172330

[HiPointDem]

8. this is precisely my point: you can't replace a stable community, family etc. with

'classes'. you can't teach 'bonding,' bonding is a product of stable families, communities, societies.

[AnneD]

9. I never said good paying jobs were not important.....

but don't be so dismissive about parenting classes. I deal with inner city kid. Families today are not stable and communities are in trouble. How can you be expected to do what you have never seen done. I have kids coming in that are clueless as to how they got pregnant, let alone how to care for the child. This is not a one size fits all problem and there is not a one solution fits all answer. I am in the trenches and see this all the time.

Years back, young parents DID get parenting classes in addition to job skills class. For young parents with small kids...the two skills are inseparable. It has long lasting impact to create the stable families, communities, and society that you talk about.

Edited to add...maybe this will help you understand where I am coming from. I deal with middle school childre; 6th -8th grade. They have not even finished school yet. They need help, otherwise they will have #2 when they can't take care of #1 or themselves. They are young and have time enough to learn these skills.

[HiPointDem]

10. i have also 'dealt' with inner city kids. and immigrants and refugees. and welfare

Last edited Wed Sep 19, 2012, 04:12 AM - Edit history (3)

clients, and homeless people. And I live in a poor neighborhood with people housed on section 8, etc. and surviving on government benefits and part-time work, scrap collecting, etc.

I dismiss classes intended to make poor people behave as middle-class people do without the resources middle-class people have. Stable families and communities and societies aren't created through 'classes'.

Families and communities have been destabilized by deliberate economic & political policies. The big middle class we used to take for granted was a product of the New Deal post-war consensus, and poverty grows as that consensus is taken apart. Homelessness as a major problem emerged very suddenly under Reagan & was a creation of his housing & other policies. Destabilization of families and communities is a product of multiple policies, such as incarceration, drug war, welfare, urban 'renewal,' tax laws, economies which force people to regularly uproot, and other 'class war' policies favoring capital, down to deliberate capital strike designed to force the policies capital wants.

The results are entirely predictable. You can read about historic and geographic parallels and note overarching similarities in cause and effect.

"Classes" for the poor have been with us since long before jane hull opened hull house, and unless combined with forceful and successful advocacy for changed policies have never done anything more than help some individual exceptions.

They don't change the behavior of poor people en masse or stabilize communities because the behavior of the poor is a reaction to the situation of BEING POOR -- the stress, the insecurity, outcaste status & existential/psychological/sociological ramifications.

And the unstable communities people live in were not created by them or their behavior, but by much larger forces which they have no control over.

I'm not speaking of simple material poverty in situations where 'everyone' is poor, i'm speaking of being poor within a social hierarchy in which the middle & rich are all-too visible -- herding you into classes, deciding if you will eat today or not, telling you you're failing your children, bad-mouthing you sotto voce at the hospital emergency room, etc, etc. Being dictated to by your 'betters' is part of the package of degradation.

The state creates poverty and the "culture of poverty" by denying resources, status, and 'place' to a given percentage of the population. The way it uncreates it is by changing its policies, not by sponsoring classes to make poor people act properly.

[Shagman]

11. don't forget fraud

Many of the subprime mortgages were sold to people who were the first in their families to own property. The underwriters deliberately overstated income and misrepresented facts to get mortgages for the homeowners and commissions for themselves. The owners weren't told about, or didn't understand, adjustable rates and all the other shenanigans that made their mortgages toxic assets. Everyone else got the gold, they got the shaft.

And it wasn't an accident.

Yes, those people should have had classes in finance. When you don't have money in the first place, and don't have prospects for getting much, it doesn't make sense to learn how to manage it.