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Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:40 AM

Video: Merit Pay, Teacher Pay and Value Added Measures

http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/2012/02/video-merit-pay-teacher-pay-and-value.html?m=1

14 replies, 3012 views

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Arrow 14 replies Author Time Post
Reply Video: Merit Pay, Teacher Pay and Value Added Measures (Original post)
proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 OP
mopinko Feb 2012 #1
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #2
mopinko Feb 2012 #3
Sancho Feb 2012 #4
mopinko Feb 2012 #7
Sancho Feb 2012 #8
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #5
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #9
mopinko Feb 2012 #10
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #11
mopinko Feb 2012 #12
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #6
mopinko Feb 2012 #13
YvonneCa Feb 2012 #14

Response to proud2BlibKansan (Original post)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:18 PM

1. test scores shouldn't be the only measure of any human being.

ever.
period.

but there does need to be a way to make sure that teachers are doing a good job. there needs to be a more systematic way for parents and even students to evaluate teachers. they know who the bad ones are. but nobody ever asks them.

i did find the part in the video about correlation a little unconvincing. i wouldn't mind knowing more.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:10 PM

2. Judge me on tests I TAKE...

...not on tests others take. With VAM, teachers are being judged on tests taken by others.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:30 PM

3. well

like i said, tests measure only so much. they should not be a sole decision making tool.
but i would like to judge you by how well your students progress. i think it is fair to judge you by how much they progressed in your year with them. far better than judging them against every kid every where, regardless of circumstances.
i also think that looking at long term stats is a good idea. if you can track back from college graduates to elementary schools, to specific teachers, (presuming we can keep them in teaching that long) you could start to understand what works.

i think the data is valuable in measuring what METHODS work the best. forget personalities and pay checks. what methods work best at building a lifelong foundation of learning? that should really be the question that is being asked here.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 03:36 PM

4. Believe me...this is not new and what you propose won't work...

Just as a thermometer can't measure blood pressure (even though both assess something about health when taken in context); a standardized test given annually cannot measure teacher performance.

Yes, we can build tests that measure student academic progress on a short term basis. It's way too expensive to build many, many tests for all the situations, students, and curriculums in today's schools. As such, the standardized tests now used are subject to all sorts of confounding that is almost impossible to "subtract out" with value-added (structural equation modeling) formulas. This is the conclusion of the majority of folks with the exception of those selling the snake oil.

Many of us have tried it and studied it, and soooooo....if you want to evaluate teachers your best bet is to use teacher made tests at the school level for pre-post testing multiple times a year combined with observations of teaching by peers and administrators, and qualitative discussions of the context around all the evidence.

Having student work samples is often useful. Long term evidence (like kids who win American Idol and credit their elementary school teacher), and also surveys of parents and kids can be tossed in the mix. Sometimes affective evidence like the kids enthusiasm for a subject is more important than vowel sounds and multiplication tables.

We know what methods work best...and it can't easily be put in a bottle! In fact, the methods change with the cultural and subjects. Different kids and situations need lots of different methods. Veteran teachers are actually (if you watch them) more versatile and have a larger tool kit of methods in most cases (contrary to popular opinion). In 1980 one famous research published articles on 40 years research on "what works" to produce exceptional adults. Yes, some great teachers were identified, but even a great teacher works with some students but is a poor fit for others. It's the same now as 75 years ago...no one number will accurately work.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 03:50 PM

7. the thing that jumps out at me from your comments

peer review.
a very good measure, as long as the environment supports enough input for that to be a valid measure. i think that is one of the big problems with this whole subject. teaching is mostly so isolated. i know good schools where teacher collaborate and really know how other teachers work. in others, this would devolve into who is in what clique, usually based on their dislike for the principal, or worse, the kids.
so, in a good school, it is a good measure, but unfortunately in a bad school, it reinforces the worst.

but i do agree that in all cases actual input from humans across the spectrum HAS to be part of the picture.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 07:40 PM

8. it's not a problem....that's how good teaching works!

it's collaborative, cooperative, and supportive. Good teaching CANNOT EXIST in isolation. At least not the best teaching....so ONE PERSON cannot be "credited". That is one of several important aspects of teaching that teacher education programs and the CCSSO (Chief State School Officers) emphasize! If you're not a peer, don't know the kid, and don't know the environment....well...you're opinion isn't worth much.

Fortunately, good teachers want the best for kids - not money - but the GOP is throwing teachers into the briar patch! They will get poorer teacher who cost more if they insist on a single test score as the main evidence.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 03:39 PM

5. Or one could include teachers in discussing...

...'what works'. The problem with data is that...currently...it is flawed. At least there is a change to measure growth. That's an important change. But until the methods of collecting, analyzing and reporting data are improved, I cannot support even a FRACTION of a teacher's job performance being judged by such a flawed measure.

Teaching, as a profession, encompasses SO MUCH MORE than current 'data' can possibly show.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:31 PM

9. Interesting take on the NYC situation...

...here:

'For Teachers and Principals, Anger, Sadness and a Need to Explain'


http://www.nytimes.com/schoolbook/2012/02/27/for-teachers-and-principals-anger-sadness-and-a-need-to-explain/

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:31 PM

10. well

i do not see it as- children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>teacher is penalized. we could live in a more "perfect" world where =>problems are analyzed and a solution is applied.
i completely recognize that it would be delusional to think that anything like that can happen in most places today. i'm just sayin'.

i think right now chicago, like other places, is trying to do this-
children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>children's progress is evaluated=>child is failing=>something has to happen.
throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the best solution, but doing nothing is just not an option.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:53 PM

11. Straw man...

...argument:


throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the best solution, but doing nothing is just not an option.


Who wants to do NOTHING to fix things? Certainly not any of the dedicated teachers I have worked with. But we won't do the right things based upon using flawed data. That just helps to scapegoat people and place blame.

Education HAS to be done right...I agree with President Obama on that. And NOW is the time. We can't afford to fail on this...it is too important for the country, for all of us.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:58 PM

12. i was reacting to your statements

that you wanted zero part of whatever data was collected, and your insistence that none of it could be valid. that added up to nothing to me.

but i am also thinking of school turnarounds in chicago that are the subject of another thread. nothing is not an option is something that many are saying about that.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 03:43 PM

6. Governor Brown on data...

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:06 PM

13. love jerry brown.

i will just say that education would be greatly improved by simply supporting the humanity of both students and teachers in any way possible.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 28, 2012, 01:15 AM

14. On this we can...

...agree. I do think we will get there, so long as we focus on that humanity, communicate with civility, and focus on the goal of improving schools for the future of all kids.

And we have Dems like Jerry Brown who are just plain GREAT at bringing people together.

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