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NNadir

(33,513 posts)
Tue May 23, 2023, 09:36 PM May 2023

The Difference Between Thermodynamically Rich Heat and Heat as a Thermodynamic Degradant.

In a PM a correspondent here at DU wrote me thus:

what you mean by "Heat is the least thermodynamically degraded form of energy." (Point me to some text rather than explain if you wish.) You compare electricity to heat in another part of the post. I took three semesters of undergraduate physics, one being mostly thermo, and even taught a semester of P Chem, but my immediate puzzle is that I see heat as being both the source of useful energy if you have a lot (from nuclei or reduced carbon) and the useless end point ("heat death" back when) when its entropy is high. Do you mean that electricity is only a step along the way from low entropy/high G to a high entropy/low G state?


I actually never got around to answering the question, but was reminded of it when I came across this paper recently:

Solvent Effect on the Chemical Equilibrium of Ammonium Carbamate for Chemical Heat Pump Suzhou Dai, Yonggao Yin, Yikai Wang, Xuanlin Liu, Maurizio Peruzzini, and Francesco Barzagli Industrial & Engineering Chemistry Research 2023 62 (18), 7212-7223.

The device described in this paper is kind of a heat pump on steroids; it uses both compressional heat and the heat of chemical reactions to upgrade low grade heat to high grade heat, but to do this, it requires work, the expenditure of energy.

But let's cut to the chase. The correspondent is right about what I mean in the last sentence. It is fairly straight forward to show why this is true, if one understands that one statement of the second law of thermodynamics is "every process by which one form of energy is converted to another form will result in an increase in entropy," thus a loss of irrecoverable energy to the environment.

Before proceeding to the simple example, a little bit about entropy, what it is.

In general, the the increase in entropy is observed in the form of heat energy, although entropy can take other forms.

We are all familiar with irreversible processes. If we drop an egg off a table, it falls and breaks into pieces and goo. We never observe pieces and goo reassembling into the form of an egg. The shattering of the egg is an example of entropy. The development of statistical mechanics allowed Boltzmann to define what entropy is on a molecular scale, but before that, before Boltzmann entropy was known by the Clausius inequality:



The funny looking "delta" in the equality refers to the fact that this is an inexact differential; the way it integrates depends on the path. q is the standard variable used to describe heat, and S is entropy. If the equality holds rather than the greater than symbol, the process is reversible, but reversible processes in thermodynamics are idealized forms; they do not exist in real life.

As the nature of heat, then something of a mystery, was explored in the 19th century, largely the result of the invention of heat engines, in particular the steam engine, people realized that if you run a locomotive backwards, it never sucks all of the smoke back into the smokestack and reassemble the lumps of coal after sucking heat out of the environment. The locomotive is like a smashed egg. Clausius, writing in the middle of the 19th century - just as humanity was abandoning reliance on the weather for energy for a reason - basically was the first person to define entropy per se, building on the more intuitive work of the French engineer Carnot.

One does not need to have anymore than a knowledge of 7th grade algebra to see intuitively by looking at the Clausius inequality that a way to minimize entropy is to have the transfer of heat (by any path) is to do it at high temperatures. Thus having high temperatures is a route to minimizing entropy.

Now we are in a position to describe by example - I've done this before in this space - why I say electricity is thermodynamically degraded.

All heat engines of course run on primary energy. In a filthy dangerous fossil fuel plant this primary energy is the potential energy in the dangerous fossil fuel, coal, oil, or gas, but in order to recover this potential energy we combust the dangerous fossil fuel to make heat. Chemical energy is converted to heat energy. In a clean nuclear plant, the energy comes from the nucleus of a fissionable atom, usually uranium or plutonium, although neptunium, americium and curium would work too. Nuclear energy is converted to heat energy.

The common element is heat. Now let's look at the conversion of this common form of energy heat, and see what happens in making it into electricity, and moreover in storing it. The heat of the fuel is converted into steam energy (pressurized gas) at a thermodynamic loss - the boiler radiates heat to the environment. The steam is converted to mechanical energy at a thermodynamic loss, friction in the turbine, heat radiating from the housing. The mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy using a generator at a thermodynamic loss, friction, resistance in the copper wire, air resistance in the armature, etc. The electricity is then "shipped" (transported) over wires at a thermodynamic loss, the heat of electrical resistance.

Thus the electricity is thermodynamically degraded. Heat is converted to steam, steam is converted to mechanical energy, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy, electrical energy is transported, four steps, each surrendering some of the value of the original heat to electricity.

A Rankine cycle (steam) power plant runs about 33% efficiency on average, depending on the temperature of the steam as well as the temperature of the surroundings: Powerplants are more efficient in winter than in summer. Thus right out fo the box, about 67% of the energy is wasted in just this step, steam to mechanical energy. This is really not surprising, there are lots of opportunities for steam to reject heat to the environment in these processes.

Now lets consider what happens in some of the more stupid fantasies that run around, batteries and hydrogen. The already thermodynamically degraded electricity is converted to chemical energy in the battery at a thermodynamic loss; most people can observe that lithium batteries get warm when they recharge; indeed under some conditions they'll burst into flame. Some of the stored electricity is degraded over time whether the battery is used or not, via internal diffusion. However, if the battery is used to provide electricity, chemical energy is converted back to electrical energy at a thermodynamic loss. If the electricity is used to drive a motor, the electrical energy is converted to mechanical energy at a thermodynamic loss. Four steps have now become (for an electric car) 7 steps. (It is true that mechanical energy can be converted back into chemical energy by electronic braking, but in this case 7 steps have become 9.)

Hydrogen is even worse, because in general, the hydrogen gas has to be compressed, and if liquified, cooled below its critical temperature, involving a huge amount of work (energy).

Almost all of the energy processes described release energy as heat, low grade heat. Low grade heat can be - often wisely - upgraded to high grade heat with heat pumps, but this also expends energy. Some heat pumps are better than others. The ammonium carbamate heat pump described in the paper referenced above is one that is new to me; on some level it should have been obvious, but I never thought of it. Industrially ammonium carbamate is a rather important compound, a key intermediate for example of some routes to urea for fertilizer and for SCR catalysts for diesel engines. Ammonium carbamate is synthesized by reacting ammonia gas with carbon dioxide gas under pressure. Both ammonia and carbon dioxide have been used as refrigerants, this process adds a little extra "kick" to their efficiency, but the second law of thermodynamics still applies to the system; it requires energy inputs to run, just like any other refrigerator.

It follows from the above that the most sensible way to store energy - if one must do so for load leveling for example - is as heat. Batteries and hydrogen are the worst, and most wasteful ways to store energy. I note that the direct conversion of heat to chemical energy, eliminating the degradation associated with electricity, is a thermochemical process. These are known, my personal favorite being the much discussed SI (sulfur iodine) cycle. There are others.

Have a nice day tomorrow.

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The Difference Between Thermodynamically Rich Heat and Heat as a Thermodynamic Degradant. (Original Post) NNadir May 2023 OP
A heat battery loses energy. Electrical batteries lose energy Bernardo de La Paz Jul 2023 #1
You have entirely missed the point. NNadir Jul 2023 #2
Why does a nuke plant need to store heat? It's not to mitigate nighttimes or windless days. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 2023 #3
Demand is not constant, it tends to peak in the late afternoon early evening. NNadir Jul 2023 #4
Good point. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 2023 #5

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,999 posts)
1. A heat battery loses energy. Electrical batteries lose energy
Sat Jul 8, 2023, 07:04 AM
Jul 2023

Getting the heat into a heat battery involves losses because the heat battery is some distance away from the heat source and transmission of heat has greater losses per distance than transmission of electrical energy (as I understand it).

You correctly identify that reducing the number of steps and especially of conversions tends to increase efficiency. However, there are actually conversion steps in heat storage. Heat is not stored as the steam produced by a boiler. It has to be converted SI (or other system) heat by an exchanger of some kind, which has losses going in and coming out.

So to claim that a heat battery is not a conversion step or two is disingenous, I think.

But I don't know how the overall efficiencies of such systems compare and you don't state data. I've made a brief desultory search with no fruit.

NNadir

(33,513 posts)
2. You have entirely missed the point.
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 09:23 AM
Jul 2023

All energy storage loses energy, a point I frequently make in connection with the battery, and worse, hydrogen systems. (I am writing a post, with a lot of numbers, on just how dirty hydrogen is as it is produced now and how ridiculously far away - so far as to be useless - "green hydrogen" is. It's not just far off in time, despite the cults here and elsewhere attached to it, it simply won't happen.

You seem to think I'm talking about energy transport. I'm not. I'm talking about heat storage where there is one energy transfer, from the primary energy source - for which nuclear is far superior to anything else - in contact with that source.

The Terrapower nuclear reactor that will be constructed in Wyoming uses precisely this strategy, the heat is stored in a molten salt. It's not that it doesn't lose energy. There is no such thing as a purely adiabatic system. It's that it loses the smallest amount of energy possible as opposed to the vast exergy destruction involved with both hydrogen and batteries, never mind their material costs and the environmental impact of those materials.

I'm well aware of the laws of thermodynamics, even if there are many people here who wish to pontificate about energy, this from a position of extreme ignorance, who think these laws are a joke.

NNadir

(33,513 posts)
4. Demand is not constant, it tends to peak in the late afternoon early evening.
Tue Jul 11, 2023, 10:36 AM
Jul 2023

In the early evening, heat energy stored during the day can address load leveling.

In the case of Wyoming, where this a lot of unreliable wind junk, it can also address the reliability issue.

In the absence of unreliable wind junk this would still be an issue.

Molten salt storage is also available for other missions that nuclear should, but currently doesn't, address, notably chemical processing.

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