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OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 04:59 PM Jun 2012

Natural exposure to gamma rays in background radiation linked to childhood leukaemia

http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/120611.html
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Natural exposure to gamma rays in background radiation linked to childhood leukaemia[/font]

11 June 2012

[font size=3]Findings demonstrate that there are small effects of radiation at very low doses

A small but statistically significant link between risk of childhood leukaemia and the gamma rays we are all exposed to from our natural environment has been detected in an Oxford University-led study.



The team found that there was a 12% increase in the risk of childhood leukaemia for every millisievert of natural gamma-ray dose to the bone marrow. While this finding was statistically significant, even with a study of this size there is still some uncertainty around the size of the effect. The relative risk increase is likely to lie within a range from 3% to 22% per millisievert.



Dr Kendall adds: ‘The findings are relevant to understanding the risks from low radiation exposures such as medical X-rays and CT scans; planning for the disposal of nuclear waste; and the risks from the exposures received by people living near Chernobyl or Fukushima.

…[/font][/font]
http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/leu.2012.151
73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Natural exposure to gamma rays in background radiation linked to childhood leukaemia (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 OP
Natural background? RobertEarl Jun 2012 #1
That's a spectacularly ignorant challenge caraher Jun 2012 #2
Speaking of ignorant RobertEarl Jul 2012 #8
You may have noticed I'm not the only one critical of your posts caraher Jul 2012 #12
Ahhh, I see what the problem is RobertEarl Jul 2012 #15
You should talk about what the OP is talking about when you reply to it caraher Aug 2012 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author RobertEarl Aug 2012 #47
Eh? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #48
Do you think the other people on here are ESL students or just morons? XemaSab Aug 2012 #50
You're don't appear terribly interested in the answer to what you now identify as your main question caraher Aug 2012 #51
So, you agree RobertEarl Aug 2012 #55
I would agree if I accepted your crazy way of talking caraher Aug 2012 #65
That doesn't make any sense at all. FBaggins Aug 2012 #68
I'm curious: why exactly do you think radiation is increasing all the time? NickB79 Jul 2012 #14
There's a definitional question here, I think caraher Aug 2012 #46
Fukushima was and is not a discrete event, it's ongoing... n/t nebenaube Aug 2012 #69
Keeping that for posterity! Nihil Jun 2012 #3
We are all hit by natural sources of radiation every day, some more than others OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #4
Right RobertEarl Jun 2012 #5
The increase due to fallout is relatively minor when compared to radon OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #6
NPP explosions RobertEarl Jul 2012 #9
Comprehension fail NickB79 Jul 2012 #10
I comprehend fine RobertEarl Jul 2012 #11
If so, you hide it well. ;-) FBaggins Jul 2012 #13
AMEN to that!!! PamW Aug 2012 #17
More misunderstanding at play PamW Aug 2012 #64
WRONG!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!! PamW Aug 2012 #16
Simple math RobertEarl Aug 2012 #18
It IS simple math... but you're failing. FBaggins Aug 2012 #19
Have you no shame? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #20
For someone who spends a lot of time attacking other people's credentials XemaSab Aug 2012 #21
Going personal, eh? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #22
Asking you about your credentials is a personal attack? XemaSab Aug 2012 #26
Ignoring the arguments... RobertEarl Aug 2012 #27
You said that FBaggins should be ashamed for XemaSab Aug 2012 #30
Why make stuff up? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #31
I'm the Ice Queen of E/E XemaSab Aug 2012 #32
Well RobertEarl Aug 2012 #33
Have you read the posts of this RobertEarl guy? FBaggins Aug 2012 #35
How much plutonium are you exposed to daily? NickB79 Aug 2012 #23
That is a good question RobertEarl Aug 2012 #25
Cancer rates in the US have been declining, not increasing NickB79 Aug 2012 #28
Have you no understanding? FBaggins Aug 2012 #34
But that's why depleted uranium is sooooo bad for you! NickB79 Aug 2012 #36
Eh? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #37
At least you phrased it in the form of a question. FBaggins Aug 2012 #38
Shouldn't have used 'dose' RobertEarl Aug 2012 #39
Closer... but still wrong. FBaggins Aug 2012 #40
I will type this real slow for you RobertEarl Aug 2012 #41
I lived in a town once where there was 3 times the EPA limit XemaSab Aug 2012 #42
I once had $100 in my pocket, and found a quarter on the ground NickB79 Aug 2012 #43
Typing slowly may be an excellent idea. FBaggins Aug 2012 #44
Make up your mind RobertEarl Aug 2012 #49
Your misunderstanding is again at play PamW Aug 2012 #63
Can you explain where you see the conflict? FBaggins Aug 2012 #67
Cesium RobertEarl Aug 2012 #70
Did you see a "137" in my post? FBaggins Aug 2012 #71
YEP RobertEarl Aug 2012 #72
Try reading what you reply to. FBaggins Aug 2012 #73
MISUNDERSTANDING again on your part PamW Aug 2012 #62
Apparently there are no scientists at the Univ. of Michigan then NickB79 Aug 2012 #24
It's your MISUNDERSTANDING!!! PamW Aug 2012 #61
Okay, I see where you're going with this now. n/t Ian David Aug 2012 #53
Do you really not think that there is any radiation produced by nature? Ian David Aug 2012 #52
Can you quote me saying anything like that? RobertEarl Aug 2012 #56
I read you further down the thread and realized that's NOT your position. n/t Ian David Aug 2012 #66
"Caution: Living may cause death." nt GliderGuider Jul 2012 #7
I know it's serious but just to lighten things up a little. Lint Head Aug 2012 #29
wow i got a headache darkangel218 Aug 2012 #54
Heh RobertEarl Aug 2012 #57
See, I take this as an admission that you come in here to troll XemaSab Aug 2012 #58
yes RobertEarl Aug 2012 #59
Just checking XemaSab Aug 2012 #60
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
1. Natural background?
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 08:00 PM
Jun 2012

What's natural about it? Do you have any idea? Or are you just posting stuff to post stuff?

caraher

(6,278 posts)
2. That's a spectacularly ignorant challenge
Tue Jun 19, 2012, 12:41 AM
Jun 2012

Ever heard of radon? Know anything at all about where it comes from? There's but one natural source of radiation.

Here's a primer: http://iaq.supportportal.com/link/portal/23002/23007/Article/24452/Where-does-radon-come-from

Ever hear of carbon-14 dating? Cosmic rays in the atmosphere produce C-14 on a continuous basis (which forms the foundation of the method).

Research potassium-40... it's not in the environment because of the nuclear industry.

Edited to add: if you had even the tiniest understanding of the relevant science, you'd recognize the OP as a rebuttal to the assertion that there exists a threshold "safe" dose beneath which radiation exposure is harmless. In other words, you're sniping against a post that attacks a common argument advanced by those seeking to minimize the hazard presented by releases of radioactive materials. If you understood the post, I'd have expected you to embrace its message.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
8. Speaking of ignorant
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:38 PM
Jul 2012

You are ignoring the idea that the background is not natural and instead go off on a tirade against me.

What is your problem? Is it me? While radiation is increasing all the time, all you do is attack me for my thoughts? WTF is your problem?

caraher

(6,278 posts)
12. You may have noticed I'm not the only one critical of your posts
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:23 PM
Jul 2012

The problem we all have with your posts is that they too often reflect ignorance of the basic science involved. At least read a few Wikipedia articles about topics like background radiation before heckling the rest of us.

It takes a certain level of chutzpah for someone who ended his first reply to the OP with "Or are you just posting stuff to post stuff?" to ask others what their problem is?

As for attacking you for your thoughts, I'm pretty sure I'm attacking the thoughts you express here and not you personally. Meanwhile, I believe that attacking thoughts and ideas with different thoughts and ideas is what's commonly known as debate, which is a legitimate function of a forum like this. And there's a very simple way to get me to stop criticizing your ideas - bone up on the basic scientific facts relevant to the ideas you express, before you express them.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
15. Ahhh, I see what the problem is
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 10:34 PM
Jul 2012

You are talking radon and I am talking about cesium, plutonium and iodine from Fukushima and Chernobyl.

You have not researched much of that, have you?

Here is a real simple link to news sources about NPP's etc.
I have read a hundred links from that site along with another 300 links from other sites.

http://nucnews.com/whatsnew.php

Now once you are up to speed and on the same page as i am, maybe we can have an honest discussion. Warning: You will be very discouraged when you finally start putting together the facts about NPP's. Like this simple fact: There are 3 reactor cores at Fukushima that are NOT contained in any way shape or form. They are venting to the atmosphere at will and have been for 15 months. Then there are the 4 spent fuel pools at Fukushima that are also venting to the atmosphere each at some level.Several of them were in buildings that exploded and are too dangerous for humans to get close to. 15 months now.

Oh, yeah, have you been reading this next site at all? I have daily for 5 months.

http://enenews.com/


caraher

(6,278 posts)
45. You should talk about what the OP is talking about when you reply to it
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:04 PM
Aug 2012

The OP clearly referred not to radioactive materials released from Chernobyl & Fukushima but exposure to ionizing radiation form other sources. Your response #1 accused the OP of "posting stuff to post stuff" and implied there's no such thing as natural background radiation. That kind of response is gratuitously abrasive and tends to destroy your own credibility.

Response to caraher (Reply #45)

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
48. Eh?
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:40 PM
Aug 2012

I asked the OP a couple of questions which were not answered.

I never said there was "no such thing as natural background radiation". What i have been saying is that what was natural is no longer natural. And hasn't been for many, many years.

Answer this: Is today's background radiation natural, or is it not?

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
50. Do you think the other people on here are ESL students or just morons?
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:37 PM
Aug 2012

The first comment on this thread read:

RobertEarl (951 posts)
1. Natural background?

What's natural about it? Do you have any idea? Or are you just posting stuff to post stuff?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=17973

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caraher

(6,278 posts)
51. You're don't appear terribly interested in the answer to what you now identify as your main question
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:45 PM
Aug 2012

As many, many posters have shown you, with numerous references, on balance the answer is that, by far, most of it is still from natural sources.

Since I know you are interested in the question of how dangerous nuclear power plants are, I don't think the answer to this question settles the matter either way regarding the risks of nuclear power. You can kill a lot of people with a release that doesn't add much to the overall global level of background radiation.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
55. So, you agree
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:15 PM
Aug 2012

That there is no more natural background level. It has been altered. It is not totally natural.

So now that we finally got that far, the idea is that any such study done in really the last fifty years, can not flatly state that a disease came from a natural source of radiation. Because for the last 50 years, the background has been infused with man made radiation. It is no longer natural.

Something can't be natural and be partly altered by man. It's like someone can not be half pregnant.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
65. I would agree if I accepted your crazy way of talking
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 07:06 AM
Aug 2012

If I turned on a flashlight at noon on a bright sunny day and announced that, thanks to this action, I have destroyed natural light light because something can't be natural and be partly altered by man, I'm pretty sure most competent speakers of the English language would scoff rather than nod in agreement...

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
68. That doesn't make any sense at all.
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 09:20 AM
Aug 2012

There are natural sources of gamma radiation and they dwarf those from nuclear power or weapons testing. They don't cease to be natural just because there are "un-natural" sources as well.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
14. I'm curious: why exactly do you think radiation is increasing all the time?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:47 PM
Jul 2012

Almost all above-ground nuclear testing ceased in the 1960's, with the last one conducted in 1980. Below-ground nuclear testing has also become very, very rare, with only a handful conducted in the past 20 years. Background radiation levels from Chernobyl have been falling for 20 years, and much of the radiation derived from Fukushima was from short-lived radioisotopes that have decayed substantially by now.

Where else is all this radiation coming from, in your mind?

caraher

(6,278 posts)
46. There's a definitional question here, I think
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:09 PM
Aug 2012

Most tallies of "background radiation" include as "background" thing like medical tests. The increased popularity of the CT scan is probably the biggest driver of any increase in "background" over the past few decades.

When it comes to worldwide increases in background from radioisotopes released by human activities you've pretty much got nuclear weapons tests, Chernobyl and Fukushima. Everything else is going to be pretty hard even to detect (aside from localized contamination events).

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
3. Keeping that for posterity!
Tue Jun 19, 2012, 06:37 AM
Jun 2012

RobertEarl (777 posts)
1. Natural background?

View profile
What's natural about it? Do you have any idea? Or are you just posting stuff to post stuff?




I especially like the snark: "Do you have any idea? Or are you just posting stuff to post stuff?"

Irony FTW!


OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
4. We are all hit by natural sources of radiation every day, some more than others
Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:27 AM
Jun 2012

There's no question about this.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=background+radiation

(Remember seeing uranium prospectors in the movies, carrying around Geiger counters? They were looking for natural radiation sources.)


There’s a question, however, about what health effects might result from it. (If you assume that we are not affected by “background radiation,” then the radiation releases at Fukushima might not be dangerous.

On the other hand, if higher levels of, “background radiation” are harmful, then we may need to reassess the dangers posed by accidents like this.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
5. Right
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:36 PM
Jun 2012

There is a natural background radiation. But since we started bursting bombs in air, from the 1940's on, the background radiation has gone above natural.

Now with Fukushima, a new background level will be reached, and it won't be natural for the most part, it will be man made.

TKs for the reply.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
6. The increase due to fallout is relatively minor when compared to radon
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:26 PM
Jun 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_radiation#Overview

Fallout from nuclear testing is an increase in your radiation exposure, but a relatively small one, and not one you can do anything about.

On the other hand, you can do something about radon levels in your home, and they likely are a much more significant source of radiation.
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
9. NPP explosions
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:47 PM
Jul 2012

It seems to me you are trying to say that Nuke explosions (bombs or plant explosions) have no impact. Which would be a fallacy of the highest order.

Check out this link about Chernobyl:
http://www.ratical.org/radiation/ChernobylChernobyl@10p2.html

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
10. Comprehension fail
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:55 PM
Jul 2012

"Fallout from nuclear testing is an increase in your radiation exposure".

Yeah, clearly he's saying nuclear explosions have no impact

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
11. I comprehend fine
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:02 PM
Jul 2012

And I see that you are just attacking me when the real enemy - the nuclear fallout - is increasing daily. Meaning that the background levels are increasing daily, meaning that cancers are increasing daily. And what do you do about it? Get pissy with me.

No wonder the world is so fucked up. Some folks just love to attack people who are actually trying to avert the disasters.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
13. If so, you hide it well. ;-)
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:05 PM
Jul 2012

And no, it's unlikely that nuclear fallout is increasing daily.

Explaining why would seem simple, but if we can't get you past even a basic understanding of what proportion of background gamma radiation is entirely natural... discussing relative half-lives is probably a waste of time.

And I see that you are just attacking me when the real enemy

A number of people on both sides of the nuclear debate had tried to correct some of your misperceptions. If you keep looking at any attempt to educate you as an "attack", you can't focus on the areas of legitimate dispute.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
17. AMEN to that!!!
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 12:34 AM
Aug 2012

As a scientist, I have to agree with FBaggins.

There's no scientific controversy here. This is well understood by scientists.

There's no big increase in radiation levels. Even Fukushima only added marginally to the radioactivity.

When it comes to exposing us to radiation and putting radioactivity into the environment; Mother Nature has us beat THOUSANDS of times over.

Moving from a sea level location to Denver will expose you to more radiation than Fukushima will.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
64. More misunderstanding at play
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 02:23 AM
Aug 2012

RobertEarl writes
It seems to me you are trying to say that Nuke explosions (bombs or plant explosions) have no impact. Which would be a fallacy of the highest order.

Nobody says it would have "no impact"; only that the impact is SMALL in comparison to what Mother Nature exposes you to. Above I referenced a table from the University of Michigan Health Physics Society. The original source of that data came from the BEIR study - Biological Effect of Ionizing Radiation study that was done by the National Research Council arm of the National Academy of Sciences. The <0.03% figure due to nuclear power actually INCLUDES Chernobyl.

BTW - don't cite "ratical.org" as a reference to any good scientist. That website is run by a guy by the name of Mangano who have been caught fudging data. In fact, he's a NOTORIOUS fudger of data, and no good scientist gives him a second thought.

For example, Mangano and "ratical.org" ran a so-called study called the "Tooth Fairy" Project. When someone asked the legitimate scientists at the Health Physics Society about it; here is the response:

http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q616.html

Complete repudiation of ratical's study by the National Cancer Institute.

PamW


PamW

(1,825 posts)
16. WRONG!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!!
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 12:28 AM
Aug 2012

RobertEarl states:

There is a natural background radiation. But since we started bursting bombs in air, from the 1940's on, the background radiation has gone above natural.

I don't know where you got that idea; but you are 100% WRONG.

Courtesy of the Health Physics Society chapter of the University of Michigan:

http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radrus.htm

The HPS at University of Michigan presents us with a breakdown of the background radiation by source.

The fallout from nuclear weapons ("Fallout" in table) is < 0.03% of the background exposure.

The radiation from ALL operations associated with nuclear power ("Nuclear Fuel Cycle" in table) is also <0.03%

The sum total of the exposure due to both nuclear power and nuclear weapons COMBINED is less than 0.06%

Mother Nature is responsible for THOUSANDS of times more of your radiation exposure than either nuclear weapons or nuclear power.

As others have pointed out; radiation and radioactivity were NOT "invented" in 1945. Radiation and radioactivity have always been with us. That's why we can Carbon-14 date the ancient Egyptians; they were eating food that was slightly radioactive.

Mankind just didn't know about the radiation that Mother Nature exposes us to, and how significant it is until the 20th century.

Some are just finding out now in the 21st century.

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. Simple math
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 10:47 AM
Aug 2012

5 + 1 = 6 .... 400 nuke plants around the world venting almost daily, then add your Depleted Uranium and Chernobyl and TMI and Fukushima.

All add to the background levels. 5 + 1 = 6. Simple math.

Too, of course, is that plutonium dose versus an equal dose of radon or sunshine do not have the same effects.

I thought you were a scientist. Why do i have to explain such simple things to you, PW?

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
19. It IS simple math... but you're failing.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 11:40 AM
Aug 2012

It isn't anything close to 5+1 (implying a 20% increase in background levels but to nuclear power and/or weapons testing). You're not just off by a factor of 10 or 100... you're WAY off.

The real figures are out there. You could simply look up what proportion of background radiation comes from non-medical human sources (primarily reactors and weapons testing). Why don't you? Why do you make yourself look so foolish by making it up and then accusing others of not understanding?

Too, of course, is that plutonium dose versus an equal dose of radon or sunshine do not have the same effects.

Wrong again. Absorbed dose is a measure of energy deposited in your tissue. One milligray from Plutonium is no different than one milligray from radon.

And since you're exposed to much MUCH MUCH more radon every day than plutonium...?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
20. Have you no shame?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:03 PM
Aug 2012

You know that given equal parts of radon and plutonium that in a matter of days the radon has decayed away but the plutonium at a minimum can be decaying and emitting alpha, beta and gamma for many, many years.

That you persist in issuing, at best, half-truths while passing yourself off as some scientific type, is simply incredulous.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
21. For someone who spends a lot of time attacking other people's credentials
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:10 PM
Aug 2012

you're awfully silent about your own.

What are your credentials? Degree? Job?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
22. Going personal, eh?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:29 PM
Aug 2012

WTF? You can't argue on the merits, you just go personal?

Have you no shame?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
27. Ignoring the arguments...
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:04 PM
Aug 2012

Last edited Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

...and asking for personal information is going personal.

Can't believe we are even discussing this. The whole long thread and you show up asking me about personal information only?

I see i have stirred up the nest. Heh.

Edited to add: Funny how i did not use the word "attack", but you did. Must be your sub-conscious at work?

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
30. You said that FBaggins should be ashamed for
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:39 PM
Aug 2012

"passing (him)self off as some scientific type."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=21065

The other day you said that mike_c clearly didn't get out much and sarcastically called *Dr.* mike_c "mister expert."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=20934

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=20945

Half of that same thread is you pissing all over CreekDog and saying that he's uneducated.

You also slipped in there that you have done 30 years of ecological studies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=20946

If you're going to dump on half the people in this forum and say that they have no scientific background, you should be prepared to put your own credentials on the table.



 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
31. Why make stuff up?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:52 PM
Aug 2012

I never said they have no scientific backgrounds... so why make up crap like that?

I have said that some are uneducated... duh!... and that their passing themselves off as scientists while posting half-truths (much like mike-c was pissing about) is incredulous.

And so here you are.... not discussing any facts or claims, just going after me personally. And here i thought you loved me?

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
32. I'm the Ice Queen of E/E
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:56 PM
Aug 2012

and I am telling you nicely that if you persist in attacking other people's credentials, I will persist in asking you about yours.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
33. Well
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:04 PM
Aug 2012

...at least you admit that you are going after me personally.


(you) .." will persist in asking you (me) about yours".


I will tell you this... I have never taken one dime in pay to make excuses for the greedy destruction or alteration or for making up excuses so that some company can fuck this planet, its people and its wildlife for profit. IOW, i am not a bio-prostitute.

In fact, if i had a nickel for every minute i fought the bastards....

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
35. Have you read the posts of this RobertEarl guy?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:19 PM
Aug 2012

I have a tough time believing that you honestly have a problem with personal attacks.

It also appears obvious that you have a tough time distinguishing between simple correction on facts that are beyond dispute... and "going personal".

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
23. How much plutonium are you exposed to daily?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:46 PM
Aug 2012

I don't recall reading about how millions of Americans have plutonium offgassing in their basements.

Radon, on the other hand, is a major bitch to remediate. When you have radon gas, it never goes away because as it breaks down more is emitted by the naturally radioactive rock beneath your house.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
25. That is a good question
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:52 PM
Aug 2012

As i am sure you know plutonium mainly comes from nuclear activities. Bombs, uranium mining and NPP's.

I asked the same question of the EPA but found no current data.
Current meaning since the 4 NPPs at Fukushima went out of control.

There are some theories that enough plutonium to kill the population 100's of times was released from Fukushima alone.

Let me ask you something: How much have cancer rates increased in the last 20 years? Best read I have is by 100%. Is that anywhere near accurate? Do you have any idea? Any sources?

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
28. Cancer rates in the US have been declining, not increasing
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:14 PM
Aug 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/health/research/26cancer.html

Globally, they are still increasing though.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/15/en/index.html

This is primarily due to 1) a longer-lived population, and 2) more unhealthy behaviors such as smoking and eating excessive amounts of meat.

The decrease in US cancer rates is directly attributed to the reduction of smoking cutting lung cancer rates.

Now, can you back up your claim cancer rates have increased 100% in the past 20 years? And if they have, why now when almost all nuclear testing ceased in the 1960's?

Here's the overall US death rate from cancer: http://www.cancer.gov/ncicancerbulletin/040312/page5

Here's the incidence rate for US children: http://www.epa.gov/ace/child_illness/d5-graph.html

Here's the rate for US lung cancer: http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/2008/reportnation2008release

The amount of plutonium released by Fukushima was measured in gram quantities. In the past 60 years nuclear weapons testing released hundreds of kg of plutonium into the environment with no recorded cancer spikes or mass deaths from nuclear poisoning.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
34. Have you no understanding?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:14 PM
Aug 2012

This isn't personal opinion, it's science. Words have actual meanings. You were the one who used the term "dose". If you don't know what it means, then don't criticize others for correcting your ignorance.

There's a difference between activity levels and exposure... and a difference between exposure and absorbed dose... and then a difference between absorbed dose and equivalent/effective dose. Once you get to dose, the source is not an issue.

It's exactly as if you proclaimed that a pound of feathers weighs less than a pound of lead and then, when corrected on the ridiculous error, got all huffy that the volume was entirely different. You don't understand the terminology so you simply don't "get it" when you receive the simplest of corrections. Let's try an example:

You know that given equal parts of radon and plutonium that in a matter of days the radon has decayed away but the plutonium at a minimum can be decaying... for many, many years.

Yes... I do know that. What you apparently don't know is that this means that the radon is much more radioactive than the same mass of plutonium. So once again, your belief in your own understanding is misplaced.

and emitting alpha, beta and gamma

Wrong yet again.

That you persist in issuing, at best, half-truths

If we could get you up to anything approaching half truth... we would all be better off.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
36. But that's why depleted uranium is sooooo bad for you!
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:20 PM
Aug 2012

It will be decaying for BILLIONS of years! Think of all the radiation!

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
37. Eh?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:28 PM
Aug 2012

So.... why don't they make nuclear bombs from radon?

Because the plutonium is much more reactive. Duh!

Did you know that plutonium was discovered in background levels only after the nuke industry began using it and distributing it?

See, that is the simple math, again. Mankind added plutonium to everyday life. Simple math.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
38. At least you phrased it in the form of a question.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:39 PM
Aug 2012

That's progress.

So.... why don't they make nuclear bombs from radon?

Because "radioactive" and "fissile" are not the same thing.

Because the plutonium is much more reactive. Duh!

Duh indeed... how ironic.

Once again, plutonium is not more radioactive than radon. These aren't matters of opinion, you should have been able to look it up faster than replying to the post... but for some inexplicable reason assumed you assumed you already understood the subject.

You were wrong.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
39. Shouldn't have used 'dose'
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:07 PM
Aug 2012

Should have said that the presence of plutonium is much more dangerous than the presence of radon when both are at equal masses. Radon is a gas and comes and goes. Plutonium on the other hand can accumulate in the body, and on the shelf sticks around for who knows how long.

IOW plutonium is much more dangerous in the sense that it isn't a gas, it is a metal that lasts many many years so its actual killing value, when compared to a similar amount of radon in a given space, is exponentially greater.

Thanks for helping me clear that up. FB.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
40. Closer... but still wrong.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:33 PM
Aug 2012
Should have said that the presence of plutonium is much more dangerous than the presence of radon when both are at equal masses.

Nope. At equal masses, radon is much more active. Again, that's what half-life tells you. The longer the half-life, the lower then activity.

Radon is a gas and comes and goes.

That would be true if you were exposed to radon at some discrete time and then expelled it from your body. In reality, you breath more in right after you breath some out.

And since it has such a short half-life, there are all those daughter elements to worry about too... but let's not advance the lesson too quickly.

And... since you're opening up to correction. You started the thread off with some serious mis perceptions - that fallout from weapons/reactors was now the majority of background radiation. This simply isn't true. Certainly the infant living near Fukushima in the early hours of the event was exposed to above-background doses (particularly thyroid doses), but for anyone outside of that immediate area (and certainly talking hundreds of days later), there's simply no comparison.

There are human decisions that have significantly impacted our gamma dose:

Medical procedures: These obviously vary wildly from individual to individual, but can appreciably impact that individual's exposure. It's useful to note that even for the person of average health needs, this is on the order of 100 times as much radiation as fallout from reactors and weapons-testing combined.

Better-insulated homes: There's a trade-off here, we're better at recognizing homes with serious radon issues and remediating them (lowering doses for those individuals), but for the majority who don't have remediation systems (or who turn them off), the better-sealed homes have much higher radon concentrations than back in the day when people just opened their windows for ventilation and homes leaked like a sieve. And, of course, granite counter tops are much more common these days. As I've pointed out before, the difference in radon exposure between one home and the one right next door can easily be larger than the background exposure to fallout. The differene in the same home with the windows open/closed can be larger. Your decision to live in the Smokies vs. down here in the triad likely increases your background dose more than any fallout you're getting (from a combination of higher altitude and more exposure to uranium daughters).

Sprawl: The simple fact is that we have many more people living at higher altitudes than in the past. Most of mankind used to live quite close to sea level... and the higher altitudes necessarily add a nontrivial amount to the cosmic radiation levels (averaging about 50 times the level of weapons/reactors)

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
41. I will type this real slow for you
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 10:49 PM
Aug 2012

Radon + Plutonium = more radiation

Once there was radon and no plutonium.

Now there is radon and plutonium.

And cesium, and strontium and a few other deadly elements that before mankind's efforts did not exist in the background radiation mix that is now spread around the world.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
43. I once had $100 in my pocket, and found a quarter on the ground
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:19 AM
Aug 2012

$100 + $0.25 = More money!

Am I going to go out and buy a new Ferrari now? Nope, because the amount of money added to what I already had (we'll call it my background wealth) was a tiny amount, and had no significant impact on my overall level of wealth.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
44. Typing slowly may be an excellent idea.
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:43 PM
Aug 2012

Anything to get you to think through the post could help.

Radon + Plutonium = more radiation

And which of your prior posts do you think that supports? Which of my posts do you think it rebuts? Does it mean that the VAST majority of background Gamma radiation is not natural? Does it mean that background levels from fallout are increasing? Or that plutonium has suddenly become more radioactive than radon? Or that plutonium is used in bombs because it's so radioactive?

You seem to have a knack to shifting your points back to things people never disagreed with without admitting the prior errors (with the notable exception of the dose comment that you retracted).

And cesium, and strontium and a few other deadly elements that before mankind's efforts did not exist in the background radiation mix that is now spread around the world.

Sigh... Cesium and strontium are both naturally-occurring elements. But perhaps it's too early to discuss elements vs. isotopes.

Regardless... still mixed in with your errors is this ridiculous assumption that the source of an alpha particle (man-made vs. natural) makes any difference at all.

No matter how slowly you type it... that's still wrong.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
49. Make up your mind
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:05 PM
Aug 2012

First you write: Once you get to dose, the source is not an issue.

Then you write:
At equal masses, radon is much more active. Again, that's what half-life tells you. The longer the half-life, the lower then activity.

Then you write:
... ridiculous assumption that the source of an alpha particle (man-made vs. natural) makes any difference at all.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
63. Your misunderstanding is again at play
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 02:11 AM
Aug 2012

RobertEarl writes:
Then you write:
... ridiculous assumption that the source of an alpha particle (man-made vs. natural) makes any difference at all.


It doesn't make a difference as to whether the alpha particle is man-made or natural.

A 1 MeV alpha particle is a 1 MeV alpha particle is a 1 MeV alpha particle.

Does it make a difference whether a molecule of water is man-made or natural? Suppose we have some 100% pure water from nature. Of course, you don't find 100% pure water in nature as in a river. So suppose we took some water from a nice clean river and distilled it so we had only 100% pure water.

Now suppose we had some man-made water formed by combustion of hydrogen and oxygen. We got the hydrogen from a well, and the oxygen from the air. Again, no impurities; just the H2O molecules.

Do you think there is any difference between the water made by nature, and the water made by man??

There's no difference with alpha particles either. It doesn't matter whether Mother Nature made that alpha particle, or Man made the alpha particle; that alpha particle is going to follow the same rules of Physics either way.

The whole question about half-lives and activity has to do with how fast the decay reactions go.

But once you have a decay that produces an alpha particle; it doesn't matter AT ALL who induced the reaction to make the alpha particle.

The alpha particle just knows it is an alpha particle, and not who made it.

PamW

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
67. Can you explain where you see the conflict?
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 09:18 AM
Aug 2012

There isn't any conflict between the three statements.

You may want to review #34.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
70. Cesium
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 12:27 PM
Aug 2012

FBag writes, in post 44:


Sigh... Cesium and strontium are both naturally-occurring elements.


And here is what the EPA says:

Where does cesium-137 come from?

Nonradioactive cesium occurs naturally in various minerals. Radioactive cesium-137 is produced when uranium and plutonium absorb neutrons and undergo fission. Examples of the uses of this process are nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons. The splitting of uranium and plutonium in fission creates numerous fission products. Cesium-137 is one of the more well-known fission products.

http://epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/cesium.html#environment


FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
71. Did you see a "137" in my post?
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 01:14 PM
Aug 2012

Or in the one I replied to that contained your error? In fact you specifically spoke of elements rather than isotopes. Is it my fault that you don't speak the language? It isn't as if I haven't tried to explain it in the past.

You continually have this problem. Science is an area where precision of language is very important... but you seem to revel in avoiding it.

Let me jump ahead to the next error that you're going to make and save time (I know you will, because you're done it several times before). Cesium is natural. Some isotopes of cesium are not. Yes, 137 is radioactive, but it's important to recognize that it isn't the chemical properties that matter to the conversation, it's the radioactivity. That radiation takes the form of beta particles... and it is those beta particles that make up any dose received from that radiation. The beta particles aren't any different from beta particles released by entirely natural isotopes.

Pay particular attention to this part - it doesn't matter what the source of the beta particles is (natural or man-made), it only matters how many of them there are (and, of course, whether anyone is hit by them and how). So if your daily exposure is 70,000-100,000 beta particles and man-made cesium adds three to that total. It's pretty nonsensical to pay attention to the three as a threat.

And you can imagine why those with a scientific background get a chuckle out of statements that essentially translate to "well... 70,003-100,003 is more than 70,000-100,000 isn't it? So I've proved my point!"

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
72. YEP
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
Aug 2012

You talk a good game about science, but your intellectual integrity lacks a great deal. Pretty normal for the nukies. You are nothing special.

Why i even have to say this is incredible, but here goes. The subject is cesium from Fukushima. Not natural and if you had integrity you wouldn't have gone off yapping about cesium from nuclear reactors being natural. But you did, just to seemingly win a cheap point. And then when called on it, you blabber on as if cesium137 and cesium134 are safe because, well, because you say so.

Science is an area where precision of language is very important... but you seem to revel in avoiding it.

I do not profess to be a nuclear scientist. You do and you are very imprecise.


FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
73. Try reading what you reply to.
Mon Aug 13, 2012, 10:27 AM
Aug 2012

If you don't understand part of it... you're free to ask for help. Assuming (especially with your track record) that you DO understand and that the person must be lying... just makes you look foolish.

Do you see what I put there immediately after telling you that cesium could occur naturally? "But perhaps it's too early to discuss elements vs. isotopes. " You've just proven that it clearly is too early... because you just don't "get it".

The subject is cesium from Fukushima.

Actually... the subject of the thread is the impact of gamma radiation and a possible link to childhood leukemia. You're the one who drove it so badly off course. Cesium (regardless of isotope) is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

you wouldn't have gone off yapping about cesium from nuclear reactors being natural. But you did

Nope. I merely corrected your frequent errors. Nobody claimed that cesium from reactors was "natural". You were the one foolishly trying to convince others that background radiation is not natural if any part of a person's exposure (regardless of how tiny) came from a manmade source.

I do not profess to be a nuclear scientist.

Thank goodness. Unfortunately... you do pretend to have a clue.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
62. MISUNDERSTANDING again on your part
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 02:00 AM
Aug 2012

RobertEarl writes:
So.... why don't they make nuclear bombs from radon?

This is another example of your MISUNDERSTANDING of the science.

It's not the radioactivity that you want in materials for nuclear reactors and nuclear bombs. The property that you want in materials to fuel reactors and bombs is that those materials be "fissile":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fissile

As an analogy, your statement above is as if you asked:

I understand that molasses is darker than gasoline. So why don't we use molasses in our cars?

Obviously color is NOT the desired property for the fuel for a car. To fuel a car, you need a fuel that has energy content and is combustible. That's why we use gasoline. The color is of no concern.

Likewise with fuel for reactors and bombs. We need a material or materials that are fissile. The radioactivity, or lack thereof; is of no concern when it comes to the energy producing nature of the material, and its ability to sustain a chain reaction in either a reactor or bomb.

See - the whole problem is your LACK of understanding.

PamW

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
24. Apparently there are no scientists at the Univ. of Michigan then
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:49 PM
Aug 2012

Thank god we have an intellect far greater than the combined knowledge of their puny brains to educate us.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
61. It's your MISUNDERSTANDING!!!
Fri Aug 3, 2012, 01:52 AM
Aug 2012

RobertEarl writes:
I thought you were a scientist. Why do i have to explain such simple things to you, PW?

I am a professional PhD level scientist; so I do understand science. I don't need you or anyone else to explain science to me.

However, I need you to explain your MISUNDERSTANDING of science, so I can CORRECT your MISTAKES and EDUCATE you.

PamW

Ian David

(69,059 posts)
52. Do you really not think that there is any radiation produced by nature?
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:47 PM
Aug 2012

Hell, even lightning produces radiation.

Thunderclouds accelerate cosmic electrons

As well as producing spectacular lightning shows, thunderclouds can also sometimes emit strange long-lasting bursts of gamma rays. Now, a group of researchers in Japan claims to have the best evidence yet that these gamma rays are produced by the clouds acting as enormous particle accelerators. The scientists reached this conclusion in the spirit of Benjamin Franklin by studying an electric storm from a mountaintop in Japan.

It has long been known that lightning strikes produce short bursts of gamma rays, but in the past few years scientists have also observed longer gamma-ray events, of up to 90 seconds, that cannot be explained by the same mechanism. Several research groups have linked these longer events with high energy electrons accelerating in the electric field of a thundercloud but there is little physical data to corroborate.

In 2007 Harafumi Tsuchiya of the Cosmic Ray Laboratory of Japan’s RIKEN research institute and colleagues set out to investigate the longer bursts experimentally. The scientists travelled to a nuclear power plant on the Japanese coast to take measurements of electromagnetic activity during a winter thunderstorm. They found — by analysing the energy distribution of the pulse — that the gamma rays do indeed originate from just a kilometre or so above the Earth’s surface.

More:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2009/jul/08/thunderclouds-accelerate-cosmic-electrons

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
56. Can you quote me saying anything like that?
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:18 PM
Aug 2012
Do you really not think that there is any radiation produced by nature?

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
29. I know it's serious but just to lighten things up a little.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 02:35 PM
Aug 2012

It could be the reason for our current political problems.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
57. Heh
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:22 PM
Aug 2012

I find myself in the same way. But you must remember that several posters here are pro-nuke and any idea that questions the safety of nukes is to be fought at all costs by them.

Myself, am learning much about radiation and the like with each thread i read. So it is educational in a way. At least for me. Plus, i do like stirring up the nukie's nest.

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