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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:24 AM Jul 2012

Germany Is Showing The World How To Become A Renewable Energy Powerhouse

http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-renewable-energy-production-is-living-up-to-the-hype-2012-7



To be blunt, Germany is the world's energy production guinea pig. For the past few years, Germany has been making drastic moves in the name of progress, self-sufficency and the environment.

For one, they began to close their nuclear power facilities following the Fukushima disaster, even though it accounted for a quarter of its power production. All nuclear facilities are planned to be closed by 2022.

Around the same time, Merkel and Co. passed legislation that would cause the country to generate a third of its power through renewable sources in the next ten years, that figure jumping to 80 percent by 2050, reports the AP.

And now, they have released figures that support these broad and optimistic claims. Germany's energy industry association, BDEW, released figures detailing a production of 67.9 billion kilowatt hours of renewable energy for the first half of 2012, reports Reuters. This output represents a 19.5 percent increase from the same time frame in 2011.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-renewable-energy-production-is-living-up-to-the-hype-2012-7#ixzz21oyYAcLz
31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Germany Is Showing The World How To Become A Renewable Energy Powerhouse (Original Post) xchrom Jul 2012 OP
Something I keep pointing out to right-wing dumbfucks (but I repeat myself...) Scootaloo Jul 2012 #1
Excellent point. obxhead Jul 2012 #13
Conservation of Energy PamW Jul 2012 #25
Oh good grief, but we can't WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! obxhead Jul 2012 #26
Can you "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"??? PamW Jul 2012 #28
Wow. obxhead Jul 2012 #30
???The Honda A-Type, Honda’s First Product on the Market...ran on biofuel!!! Fledermaus Jul 2012 #27
I've seldom seen such a weak straw man argument kristopher Jul 2012 #29
It's going to be interesting to see how the collapse of the Eurozone factors in GliderGuider Jul 2012 #2
Eurozone is NOT going to collapse. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #14
Others with skin in the game aren't so optimistic GliderGuider Jul 2012 #23
that pic makes quite a contrast to the oil rigs BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2012 #3
KnR for DU's anti-nuke-power gang. chknltl Jul 2012 #4
Husband and I lived in Germany from 07-09 LittleGirl Jul 2012 #5
We've got three containers here in California. hunter Jul 2012 #7
Same here in Redding XemaSab Jul 2012 #8
In Riverside County I can make $20 or more per month selling my recyclables locally. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #15
I have only spent two months or so in Europe and they truedelphi Jul 2012 #10
I would install... GTurck Jul 2012 #6
but let's not forget NJCher Jul 2012 #9
I remember hearing soemthing about how an assassination attempt was made on Merkel truedelphi Jul 2012 #12
Using a food staple, corn, for fuel is assinine. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #16
Corn is a really stupid fuel source. obxhead Jul 2012 #20
Maybe you haven't seen the news, but there's a massive drought cooking the Midwest NickB79 Jul 2012 #24
What? By burning more gas than ever? NNadir Jul 2012 #11
I can't make heads nor tails out of your post. Your post is the nadir of logic. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #17
Is the End of Renewables Nigh ... kristopher Jul 2012 #18
You sir, are the cavlry and you wear a white hat. chknltl Jul 2012 #19
You donīt really know much about energy politics in Germany, do you? OldEurope Jul 2012 #22
Just returned from a trip to Germany Bigmack Jul 2012 #21
Long term strategy Franker65 Aug 2012 #31
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
1. Something I keep pointing out to right-wing dumbfucks (but I repeat myself...)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 08:03 AM
Jul 2012

The technology will not get better if it is not used and tested and tinkered with. Do you know how many prototypes, beta tests, and contenders there were during the advent of the internal combustion engine before it was settled on gasoline?

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
13. Excellent point.
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:22 PM
Jul 2012

If (insert random car company here) hadn't built that muscle car engine in the 50's, 60's, or 70's do you think your current "muscle car" would have that same motor pushing more power and getting 2 to 4 times better gas mileage? Would it start every time reliably for 200K+ without major work and minimal maintenance done?

No. If they hadn't built an original, they never would have gotten to the bad ass shit you brag about today.

Build it, make it cheaper, make more of them, make them better, then replace the originals as they fail with the new, better, faster, and cheaper tech.

If we start now in 50 years we may have solar/wind/electric powered cars that never need a drop of gas, an oil change, or a single kilowatt sucked off the grid.

I'm sick of this argument. If we can spend trillions to kill people surely we can spare a few billion to no longer need whatever we're killing them for.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
25. Conservation of Energy
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:37 PM
Jul 2012

The problem is the solar flux on the car is WAY less than the power required to run the car.

It doesn't matter if we are 50 years down the road; we can't violate the laws of physics.

We've had steam engines for as long as there has been a USA; over 200 years; and in all that time we have never gotten around the efficiency limits imposed by the laws of physics; and we know we can never get there.

If the amount of solar energy intercepted by your car is less than what it takes to operate it; then you will need some other energy source to supplement the solar.

Additionally, you can't use wind energy from the car's motion like many who never studied science are wont to do. That's the energy equivalent of picking yourself up by your bootstraps.

The energy from a wind turbine mounted on a moving car comes from whatever engine is driving the car, and is not "free" energy. Just so you know.

PamW

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
26. Oh good grief, but we can't WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:57 PM
Jul 2012

Fuck a duck.

I'm sick of the we can't or it can't be done fucking bullshit!

Why does solar have to be the only damn source. A combination of multiple sources might work! We'll never know until we at least try it.

The first thing to get in the way of progress is a bunch of negative nellies saying it can't be done WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

PamW

(1,825 posts)
28. Can you "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"???
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:38 PM
Jul 2012

Do you think you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps??

That is could you climb the stairs without using your leg muscles. Could you grab your left shoe with your left hand, and your right shoe with your right hand; and simultaneously lift both shoes up to the next step?

Have you tried it? Do you need to try it in order to understand? ( Most people don't ).

The laws of physics forbid us from doing the equivalent of pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps.
You can't do it.

It turns out a lot of environmental and renewable energy types keep suggesting schemes that are the equivalent of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps; and it can't be done.

Evidently, you don't realize that I'm doing you a service in telling you it can't be done. Would you rather go through all the effort to try it for yourself and have Mother Nature tell you it can't be done?

Why can't you take the good council of someone who is smarter and better educated than you are in the sciences; and save yourself some wasted effort.

PamW

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
30. Wow.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:08 PM
Jul 2012

Keep living in your world of "it can't be done."

Thankfully people over the centuries have said, I think it can and made it so.

Fledermaus

(1,506 posts)
27. ???The Honda A-Type, Honda’s First Product on the Market...ran on biofuel!!!
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 04:00 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:00 AM - Edit history (1)


Biofuel made from pine trees!

http://world.honda.com/history/limitlessdreams/atype/index.html

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
29. I've seldom seen such a weak straw man argument
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:09 PM
Jul 2012

Limiting the platform for collection of renewable energy to the physical environment of the automobile itself is just plain dumb.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
2. It's going to be interesting to see how the collapse of the Eurozone factors in
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 09:19 AM
Jul 2012

If it's combined with a global financial crash it could hold back development. OTOH, if it's combined with an accelerated worsening of the global climate it could add a new urgency to the endeavour.

Good luck to them. The world is watching with bated breath.

 

xtraxritical

(3,576 posts)
14. Eurozone is NOT going to collapse.
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 08:44 PM
Jul 2012

Our Dow Jones broke over 13000 today on news that the European Central Bank will do "whatever it takes" to support the European Union. That means no more AUSTERITY bullshit. I hope our republiCONs get the memo.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
23. Others with skin in the game aren't so optimistic
Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:59 PM
Jul 2012
JOHN TAYLOR: The Euro Crisis Has Only Just Begun

John Taylor, founder and manager of the currency hedge fund FX Concepts, was just on Bloomberg TV this afternoon discussing his outlook for the crisis situation in Europe.

Taylor said the world has only seen the "second or third inning" of the euro crisis because Europe is still only dealing with liquidity problems – not to mention the solvency problems and the "structural issues that are even beyond solvency" that must be addressed in order to turn things around.

In the past, Taylor has said that Greece should leave the euro in order to help its own domestic economic situation. When asked whether he thought Spain should now do the same, he replied: "Yeah, everybody's in the same spot."

Taylor said he likes buying the U.S. dollar against the euro – even though he is pessimistic about U.S. economic growth and thinks the Fed is going to launch QE3 in September – because he thinks the ECB is going to print more than the Fed does, ultimately causing the euro to be the currency of the pair that heads lower.

The ECB is going to be forced to run the presses to back their bailouts, and that will cause currency devaluations. The weaker members of the EU (Greece, Spain, Italy etc.) will drop out first. It's somewhat hard to tell what a "collapse" of the EU would look like, because the members are likely to keep on saying that it's still intact, long after it has stopped being a financially, economically or politically functional entity.

Germany may keep on being able to build out renewable energy as Götterdämmerung unfolds around them, but color me skeptical.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
3. that pic makes quite a contrast to the oil rigs
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 02:09 PM
Jul 2012

doesn't have that dark, hulking, frightening vibe like the oil rigs do.

LittleGirl

(8,280 posts)
5. Husband and I lived in Germany from 07-09
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 03:56 PM
Jul 2012

and we had four dumpster types of containers outside our apartment building for recycling.
One for plastic
One for paper
One for composting (yes, even for that)
and the last for trash.

In our house, the biggest bin was for plastic and we would rinse everything and our trash container was the smallest.

Oh, and there were three color coded containers for our (subdivision) neighborhood for glass.
green for green glass
brown for brown glass and
white for clear glass.

They came once a month to pick up those containers and there was a noise restriction for dumping your glass (because of the shattering of glass). Dumping allowed between 9am-5pm only.

That was on top of the fact, I could walk 2 blocks to the nearest bus and 3 blocks to the nearest train. We live 5 miles to the nearest bus here now. Miss that.

hunter

(38,304 posts)
7. We've got three containers here in California.
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 05:31 PM
Jul 2012

The smallest bin is for "trash," the larger for "yard waste," the middle for recycling. We put most anything paper, plastic, or metal in the recycling bin. The recycling gets dumped on a conveyor belt and sorted at the transfer station. It's not a pleasant job sorting recycling all day, but a job.

We keep the bottle and cans for the kids' pocket change, they get 5 cents a bottle or can. Sometimes I give the bottles and aluminum cans to the various homeless people who come around digging them out of recycling bins. That's illegal, but they're hungry.

That may not happen in Germany.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
8. Same here in Redding
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 05:34 PM
Jul 2012

only the "recycling" bin is the smallest and they don't take plastics.

/boring

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
10. I have only spent two months or so in Europe and they
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:20 PM
Jul 2012

Do have a lot of regs. I remember someone telling me you could get a ticket if your car wasn't washed - but maybe they were kidding me?

Anyway I have to say my household does lots of re-cycling including kitchen scraps for compost and we sometimes only have to put the "trash can" out every third weekend for Monday pickup.

My husband also has a deal with a neighbor who does construction to bring us any left over lumber scraps. Spouse combines these with driftwood that he finds on the beach, and we have a pretty wood box for firewood, plus a shelving unit for the office made from free wood.

Yet I still remember how in Europe, really really elderly people would bike to their markets four or five times a week. I don't know if I will be riding my bike when I'm ninety, but I am shooting for it anyway.


GTurck

(826 posts)
6. I would install...
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 04:33 PM
Jul 2012

solar in a minute if we either had the money or the government helped us out. That would have to be federal money as we live in Texas where Perry thinks only the rich should have anything that helps the environment.

NJCher

(35,623 posts)
9. but let's not forget
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 05:48 PM
Jul 2012

How the oil and companies are spending so much money to keep us in the dark ages. They have financed PR campaigns to make it look like using corn for fuel causes fuel shortages. That is a demonstrated fact, not just a suspicion.

And they continue to do so. Who do you think is running up the price of corn way in advance of the fall harvest? Yes--to keep it too expensive for fuel.

Thanks for posting this important story. Germany deserves a lot of credit for closing their nuclear power facilities so promptly.


Cher

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
12. I remember hearing soemthing about how an assassination attempt was made on Merkel
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:22 PM
Jul 2012

Immediately following her stance on shutting down the nuke grid.

It didn't get much media attention. But then - our CIA pretty much equals our major oil production people. And we all know how they would rather not publicize their activities.

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
20. Corn is a really stupid fuel source.
Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:27 AM
Jul 2012

Using 1.1+ gallons of fuel to create 1 gallon of fuel is quite simply one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
24. Maybe you haven't seen the news, but there's a massive drought cooking the Midwest
Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:09 PM
Jul 2012

The worst one in at least 50 years, if not more. The reason corn prices are skyrocketing is because ITS ALL DYING! Parts of the Midwest have seen 90-100+ temps for weeks now with absolutely no rainfall. To make things worse, there was precious little snow during the winter to recharge the groundwater reserves and soils.

Who do I think is running up the price of corn? I blame all of us, through our use of fossil fuels to drive increasingly damaging climate change.

NNadir

(33,477 posts)
11. What? By burning more gas than ever?
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:22 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:19 PM - Edit history (2)

Germany is a soon to be bankrupt Gazprom dependent hell hole with the highest electricity prices in Europe.

€ 0.2781 per kwh, the highest price in Europe, save Denmark.

I have no doubt that the bourgeois brats who applaud this tragedy, don't care about the jobs lost in Germany when they closed their aluminum plants, and as we know full well, there isn't a single member of the "renewables will save" us scam - that has sucked hundreds of billions of euros out European governments and societies for no real result - who gives a rat's ass about poor people in Germany, and yes, there are impoverished children in Europe: Der Spiegel: 15% of German Children live in Poverty

The Germans, in case you missed it eliminated their largest, by far, source of climate change gas free energy in a paroxysm of fear, ignorance and superstition and replaced it with gas apparently because they were worried about tsunamis strinking along the Rhine that could result in a radioactive tuna fish ending up in one of their coal ash pits.

Note that they can hold forth - in a very, very, very, very stupid way about the tuna fish - but apparently give not a rat's ass that despite 50 years of insipid cheering for so called "renewable energy" and tons of money that might have been better spent on, for instance, impoverished German children, every major continent has experienced a collapse of the grain crop in the last ten years, most recently the United States.

Thank goodness that Germany showed us (yet again) how we're "saved."

Humanity has gotten exactly what it deserved. Personally, I'm damned ashamed to face my children every morning, given the world I'm handing to them, but I'm sure as hell not cheering for a grand expensive failure.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
18. Is the End of Renewables Nigh ...
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 09:07 PM
Jul 2012

For your consideration:

Is the End of Renewables Nigh as Fukushima Anniversary Nears?
By Paul Gipe, March 8, 2012
Yes, the Germans Are Cutting Solar PV Tariffs; Yes, the Solar PV Tariffs Do Need to Be Cut; No, It's Not the End of the World

In the run-up to the 11 March anniversary of the Fukushima reactor meltdown, the steady drip of anti-renewables articles in the mainstream media will become a torrent as the nuclear lobby cranks up its public relations machine. And they're taking aim at European feed-in tariffs, no doubt because of their success. Germany is particularly in their cross-hairs because of its massive development of renewable energy over the past two decades and its plan to close all its reactors for good.

I call this the "end is nigh" strategy. For example, expect to hear that Germany doesn't really produce much with all those renewables, doesn't really employ that many people building wind turbines and solar panels, and has finally seen reason and is abandoning feed-in tariffs.

Here in the U.S., we saw this approach at work this week when one of our most famous right-wing "shock jocks," Rush Limbaugh, trying to deflect a storm of criticism over his most-recent sexist remarks, launch a diatribe that building wind turbines and solar panels does not create "real jobs." That leaves one with the impression that the only "real jobs" are those involved with building, or repairing nuclear power plants — or, we should add — trying to save them from destruction.

Since the 1930s, the key to effective propaganda has been to build it around an element of truth. Thus the media and the blogosphere — at least here in the english-speaking world — are having a field day after learning that Germany's conservative ruling coalition of the CDU and FDP (with particular prodding from Philipp Rösler of the FDP) have reached an agreement to dramatically cut feed-in tariffs for solar photovoltaics (solar PV) even more than already scheduled.

With this background in mind, here are some thoughts on what ...

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/03/is-the-end-of-renewables-nigh-as-fukushima-anniversary-nears



Does nuclear power have a negative learning curve?

By Joe Romm on Apr 6, 2011 at 4:05 pm
‘Forgetting by doing’? Real escalation in reactor investment costs

Drawing on largely unknown public records, the paper reveals for the first time both absolute as well as yearly and specific reactor costs and their evolution over time. Its most significant finding is that even this most successful nuclear scale-up was characterized by a substantial escalation of real-term construction costs.


Fig. 13. Average and min/max reactor construction costs per year of completion date for US and France versus cumulative capacity completed




...

Before 2007, price estimates of $4000/kw for new U.S. nukes were common, but by October 2007 Moody’s Investors Service report, “New Nuclear Generation in the United States,” concluded, “Moody’s believes the all-in cost of a nuclear generating facility could come in at between $5,000 – $6,000/kw.” That same month, Florida Power and Light, “a leader in nuclear power generation,” presented its detailed cost estimate for new nukes to the Florida Public Service Commission. It concluded that two units totaling 2,200 megawatts would cost from $5,500 to $8,100 per kilowatt “” $12 billion to $18 billion total! In 2008, Progress Energy informed state regulators that the twin 1,100-megawatt plants it intended to build in Florida would cost $14 billion, which “triples estimates the utility offered little more than a year ago.” That would be more than $6,400 a kilowatt. (And that didn’t even count the 200-mile $3 billion transmission system utility needs, which would bring the price up to a staggering $7,700 a kilowatt).

Historical data cost on the French nukes have not been as well publicized. But Arnulf Grubler of the International Institute for Applied Systems in Austria, using “largely unknown public records” was able to perform an analysis of French (and U.S.) nuclear plants for Energy Policy, “The costs of the French nuclear scale-up: A case of negative learning by doing” (subs. req’d).

Before discussing that paper, it is worth noting that renewable energy technologies have classic learning curves. Here is solar:



Wind power looks similar.

While Grubler’s Energy Policy paper is ...


http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/04/06/207833/does-nuclear-power-have-a-negative-learning-curve/

OldEurope

(1,273 posts)
22. You donīt really know much about energy politics in Germany, do you?
Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:36 PM
Jul 2012

(please excuse my English)

Germany is not dependent on Gazprom, there are only some companies, like EON and others, that have contracts with the Russians. But with the end of the nuclear energy, the Germans do not longer depend on these companies. We can produce lots of energy without Russia. For example we have lots of sun and wind and hydraulic power. And also, we have sources outside Russia, for example in Norway. Munich is one of the biggest cities in Germany, and the supplier (Stadtwerke München) is going to produce every single kWh with renuables. Sorry, link is in German only, this is our local supplier, not a global player:
http://www.swm.de/privatkunden/unternehmen/engagement/umwelt/ausbauoffensive-erneuerbare-energien.html

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
21. Just returned from a trip to Germany
Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:52 AM
Jul 2012

And yes, getting there and coming back here was/IS a big waste of energy, but while there, I noticed LOTS and LOTS of solar energy panels on rooftops - especially on farms out in the country. WAY more that I see here in this strange land. Ms Bigmack

Franker65

(299 posts)
31. Long term strategy
Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:07 AM
Aug 2012

I have to say well done to the Germans and if you look at statistics, you'll find that Germany was installing solar capacity faster than anyone else even before Fukushima happened. Nevertheless, I have spoken to people in the German energy industry who maintain that the switchover from nuclear energy to green energy will be impossible without long term winter blackouts.

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