Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumThe Sound of a Damaged Habitat
YEARS ago, when selective logging was first introduced, a community near an old-growth forest in the Sierra Nevada was assured that the removal of a few trees here and there would have no impact on the areas wildlife. Based on the logging companys guarantees, the local residents agreed to the operation. I was skeptical, however, and requested permission to record the sounds of the habitat before and after the logging.
On June 21, 1988, I recorded a rich dawn chorus in Californias pristine Lincoln Meadow. It was a biome replete with the voices of Lincolns sparrows, MacGillivrays warblers, Williamsons sapsuckers, pileated woodpeckers, golden-crowned kinglets, robins and grosbeaks, as well as squirrels, spring peepers and numerous insects. I captured them all.
When I returned a year later, nothing appeared to have changed at first glance. No stumps or debris just conifers and lush understory. But to the ear and to the recorder the difference was shocking. Ive returned 15 times since then, and even years later, the density and diversity of voices are still lost. There is a muted hush, broken only by the sound of an occasional sparrow, raptor, raven or sapsucker. The numinous richness of the original biophony is gone.
Lesson: While a picture may be worth a thousand words, a soundscape is worth a thousand pictures.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/listen-to-the-soundscape.html
phantom power
(25,966 posts)and summer, and fall, and winter, and spring...
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)1988 was just two years after Chernobyl. It has been all downhill for wild species ever since. Seems radiation from exploding nuke plants causes death.
Oh, some one will come on here and ask for proof. Well, the report as relayed in the OP is one that is worldwide in scope. If that isn't enough then you haven't been watching and listening very well, eh?
caraher
(6,278 posts)You'll note that 1988 was the "before" condition in the OP - that is, two full years after Chernobyl everything was just hunky-dory. Then one year after that everything was messed up. So unless you have a story about how radiation affects wildlife by doing nothing for 2 years then suddenly bringing on mass death, the chronology actually supports the conclusion that did not in fact cause degradation to wild species on the other side of the world - at least not where this author was making observations.
And even were the chronology more congenial to your suggestion, without some plausible mechanism your "blame it on Chernobyl" effort would be simply one more example of the "post hoc ergo prompter hoc" fallacy.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)But you know that, right? Cause you've been reading up on it, right? That it bio-accumulates. Takes time to build up. Gene damage in successive generations becomes evident.
Oh, wait, you didn't know any of that and that is why you posted?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Oh but i think i know what you will say, so i'll just bang my head right now.
mike_c
(36,270 posts)That is shockingly bad data gathering from which to draw any sort of conclusion at all. No info regarding whether recording conditions were similar either, or whether there were any unlogged controls nearby. Krause is also clearly biased toward finding exactly what he reports finding. Bad science used to inflame public sentiment.
--Mike C.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)If you hadn't you would see what those of us who get out have seen and heard. The death of the natural world.
This one observer is witness. And you decry the signs? What is it that you can show us? That all is fine? Ha.
mike_c
(36,270 posts)No, I'm not "stuck inside." But when I go outside, I replicate my study design, make sure a single methodology is used to obtain all samples to insure that they're comparable, and I include controls. AND I describe those steps when I publish results. This sort of anecdotal stuff is crap. Bad science that people like yourself then accept as good science because it reinforces your preconceptions. You might want to look up the term "confirmation bias" in that regard.
Look, I don't want to get into an argument with you about this. But there is ZERO confidence in any of these data. None whatsoever. The experiment is badly flawed from the beginning. It's crap science. There is a LOT of good, solid environmental science out there. This is not it.
And people who accept crap science simply because it confirms their preconceptions are no better informed about the real world than people who get their "science" from religious sources or the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
On edit: I don't even know why we're disputing this. It's on the "opinion" page, fer cryin' out loud. This is Krause's opinion, based upon badly flawed data. If we know the data are flawed, how can have any confidence in the conclusions he reaches? Unless we've already made up our minds to share that conclusion no matter how little confidence we have in the data. And that brings us right back to being no better than the average Faux Noos victim.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Have you noticed a decided decline in the general ecology?
Of course you have. A huge fucking decline. So what caused it?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)or making an observation was somehow a dastardly thing.
but maybe that's because it isn't.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)one from someone who turns attention away from any other environmental problem to blame nuclear for every environmental problem (and I'm no fan of nuclear believe me).
and the other from someone who wants to discount a story, a simple observation and take this thread nowhere useful.
You, cd, really need to read up on what nuclear has done to the world's ecology. But of course it is just one more of man's fucking up the world. But in my view, from 30 years of ecological studies, has had the largest effect.
If nukes weren't tied in so closely with the warmongering assholes who brought us climate change and wars around the world, the evidence of the effects would be quite well known.
Alas, they learned how to subvert science from the first days after Hiroshima in order to downplay their dastardly evil deed. And they perfected it with GW. Some of us, however, know what they are up to. You should educate yourself.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)are you saying those are just a minor explanation?
the level of CO2 in the atmosphere? is that less of an explanation for climate change than nuclear?
i believe in renewables and more energy efficient ("less" use of fossil fuels and not nuclear.
but science doesn't support a nuclear explanation for climate change.
i'm troubled that you seem to divert climate change discussions (which implicate fossil fuel use) into nuclear threads.
i started a thread about Water usage and diversions hurting bird populations, and you tried to take the thread away from the real causes of it (which are documented) into some completely unfocused and unproven link to the nuclear industry.
in other words, like in this thread, which could be about climate change and loss of species and what causes it, you divert all that and disrupt a logical argument and instead point towards some vague blame of nuclear. it doesn't prove anything bad about nuclear, because you are saying so little about nuclear, but it does take us away from talking about the real causes.
and i feel like pointing this out, because you're doing it to her and you did it to me.
and for no environmental benefit.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)No. You. Aren't.
So why act that way? This is not about you. It is about the ecology of the earth. And man's effects upon it. If you think for one fucking second that nuclear is safe and has no effect, that just shows you are uneducated. And that is nothing special.
This is not about you wanting to remain uneducated. So just stop your whining.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)in a way that doesn't implicate nuclear, but does detract from arguments about climate change caused by fossil fuels or other environmental problems.
here's where you did it to one of my threads, about Klamath River issues, you totally took it away from the well studied and documented problems into some diversion about nuclear that did nothing except confuse people about the real cause of the problems there.
and then you said completely stupid things like the birds can just fly away and live somewhere else --probably the dumbest thing about the environment I've seen posted here.
here's what you did to my thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=593659
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
And man do you hold a pissy grudge, or what?
You telling me birds can't fly? WTF?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you said:
"Birds can fly and find water. Sure, if they congregate problems can arise. But birds are smart enough to flap their wings and find the habitat they need."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002593659#post4
---------
my response to you now:
The birds need more water, and this is well known and explained in the article. The ag industry doesn't want to share the water with the birds, period.
That argument could have been discussed, and it is the scientific one, but you kept diverting the discussion away from the scientific explanation.
Where the culprits could have been identified, you kept saying it wasn't the problem and then you tried to blame nuclear, but in such an oblique way that there is no way you did any harm to the nuclear industry but you did distract from the idenfication of a problem on the Klamath River.
So guess what, you basically said birds don't need any help there and you helped divert the discussion away from the article which said that they were suffering.
If you're an ecologist I'm the pilot of a 747.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I replied to you and you never replied back. What are you afraid of?
You do know the NW got hammered by the fallout from Fukushima, right? That it accumulates, right? That it concentrates in puddles and lowlands, right? Did you ever even stop to think that just maybe the birds there got radiated? You show no sign of ever having that thought.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and for that thread, I gave up on you because you were just spouting nonsense and stunk things up bad enough.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Poor weedle thing. Maybe open forums are too hard on your poor weedle head?
Did you ever think for one second that the birds there did indeed get radiation sickness?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)in your mind.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Ever think that the fallout from Fukushima could have caused radiation sickness in those birds?
This is not some fucking game. Not to me.
So... did you ever think? Even once?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)how would that work exactly?
also nearly all the data about Klamath's problems is from before Fukushima, am I supposed to blame things that happened right before Fukushima on Fukushima?