Testing for V2G goes to next level

[kristopher]

Delaware has key role in creating electric vehicles that add power to the grid
UD, NRG Energy create next generation of vehicles while boosting power sources

...

By 2005, Kempton, the director of the University of Delaware’s Center for Carbon-Free Power Integration, had his idea fully worked out. Two years later he demonstrated it and in 2011 he convinced NRG Energy to back his work.

On Friday, Kempton was joined by state officials and electric utility executives to celebrate the coming-of-age of his concept, one that would use electric car batteries connected to the grid as a piece of the system needed to stabilize energy peaks and valleys that come when wind and solar generators cannot produce on command.

The joint enterprise between the university and NRG – known as eV2g – was officially christened as viable at the university’s Science Technology & Advanced Research (STAR) campus.

When the car is plugged in, the grid operator, PJM Interconnection, can send a signal for it to either build its charge or discharge power back onto the grid, aiding the grid’s efforts to maintain a level flow of electricity, he said. A single electric vehicle can send out about 15 kilowatts of electricity for a short period, which is enough to run about 10 homes.

The signal is refreshed in seconds, allowing precise computerized control of the ebb and flow of current to maximize grid balancing. It is all about timing and managing the process to provide the service to the grid operator, while making sure the owner has enough charge the next time he gets in the car, Kempton said.

For Friday’s demonstration...

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130427/BUSINESS08/304270025/Delaware-has-key-role-creating-electric-vehicles-add-power-grid

[madokie]

1. What is in it for the owners of the EV's

since a battery has a finite life how can this be good for the owners. For the most part batteries have so many charge discharge cycles and thats it so why would anyone want to increase the use of their battery. I admit I don't understand the whole concept of V2G so some help would be appreciated

[kristopher]

2. 1) Batteries are expected to outlast the cars by a wide margin

2) Used EV batteries are going to have their own market - after they are removed from cars they will still have a lot of useful life for stationary applications.

3) The car's owner becomes a power provider to the utility. They do it because it pays them to do it. They buy the power when it is cheap and sell it back to the utility when the value is higher. It's hard to say how much that will earn, but projections show that it could be worth between $1500-$4000/year. There are a lot of assumptions that go along with those numbers, though, so IMO they should be taken with a grain of salt.

[madokie]

3. I guess that would be assuming that the batteries

are a different battery than the present crop as the vehicles today mechanically will outlast the batteries by a pretty good margin. At present once a battery has lost about 80% of their capacity they are considered worn out by todays standards for use in hybrids but those cars mechanically still have many miles left in them. I realize that there is a lot of battery left and they are looking for a new use for them but by using them for V2G will only cause that end to be sooner. On the other hand if the owners are paid then I guess that might make it all worth while. At present my total electrical usage comes to around $100 a month so I guess they're planning for the price of electricity to skyrocket in the near future for these numbers to pan out.
The part about after they are removed from cars they will still have a lot of useful life for stationary use doesn't come in play here as at that point they are no longer used in a vehicle so there would be no V2G there.

I realize that they are trying to find a use for used EV and Hybrid batteries but at present there really isn't a use for them other than maybe used combined with solar or wind for people who are off the grid as one of my nieces and her husband were for years living in the mountains of Idaho and Montana

I'm trying to understand what is proposed here with V2G and how it all fits in the grand scheme of things and so far I'm coming up with nada.

[kristopher]

4. A couple of your fundamental facts are not accurate.

EV batteries are designed to be replaced when they can only be recharged to 80% or less of their original maximum capacity. That is expected to take at least 10 years under normal usage - most cars only last about 8 years.

The utilities pay different prices for electricity they need for different purposes. The power from storage that can be turned on/off extremely quickly is some of the most expensive power they need. It routinely costs up to $3.00/kwh IIRC.

Google this paper, it will tell you more about the market that V2G is destined to serve:
Frequency Regulation Basics and Trends
December 2004 Brendan J. Kirby

[madokie]

5. Where do you get the 8 years part

Hell many vehicles are financed for 72 months now. I know of no cars that only last 8 years, not even a dodge or chevy, toyota or nissan, damn sure not a ford product. Thats bull
this old paper from 2004 is way out of date I'd venture to say but for the sake of argument later this evening I'll check it out
Would that $3.00 dollar per kwh figure be coming from this 2004 paper?

I don't think any of what I said is inaccurate. sorry

Both of our vehicles are '98 models and neither are even close to being wore out or ready for the junk heap and I'm about as rough on a vehicle as anyone around is. Maybe some of those econoboxs might be ready for the junk pile in 8 but I'm not even sure of that. Once the batteries are removed for whatever reason there is no longer V2G there. simple

V2G will never be I'll go so far to say and for the reasons I was getting at to begin with. No way is the power companies going to be paying a vehicle owner even a few hundred a year for the use of their battery let alone a thousand plus.

anyways have fun but I'm not buying what you're selling, I demand something in return for my money and its not here.

[kristopher]

7. 20K avg /yr X 8 years = 160,000 miles.

What you think probably isn't going to influence the adoption of this technology. The economic case for it is strong, both from the car owner's interests and the grid operator's interest.

It is still a fledgling technology, but there aren't any real technological obstacles in the way. We'll have to see what happens, won't we?

[NickB79]

6. A 10 yr lifespan under normal usage, but not with V2G included

How many manufacturers have taken the extra wear from V2G battery cycling into consideration when they calculate this lifespan, especially since V2G isn't in practice anywhere yet?

[kristopher]

8. True.

But the amount of wear isn't expected to be as significant as you seem to think. And for V2G to perform its regulation function for the grid, you only need a small percentage of people to participate.