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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 03:51 PM Jun 2013

Unsubsidized ‘Grid Parity Has Been Reached In India’, Italy–With More Countries Coming in 2014

Solar Report Stunner: Unsubsidized ‘Grid Parity Has Been Reached In India’, Italy–With More Countries Coming in 2014
By Jeff Spross on Mar 3, 2013 at 6:20 pm

Deutsche Bank just released new analyses concluding that global solar market will become sustainable on its own terms by the end of 2014, no longer needing subsidies to continue performing.

The German-based bank said that rooftop solar is looking especially robust, and sees strong demand in solar markets in India, China, Britain, Germany, India, and the United States. As a result, Deutsche Bank actually increased its forecast for solar demand in 2013 to 30 gigawatts — a 20 percent increase over 2012.

Here’s Renew Economy with a summary of Deutsche Banks’s logic:
The key for Deutsche is the emergence of unsubsidised markets in many key countries. It points, for instance, to India, where despite delays in the national solar program, huge demand for state based schemes has produced very competitive tenders, in the [12 cents per kilowatt hour] range. Given the country’s high solar radiation profile and high electricity prices paid by industrial customers, it says several conglomerates are considering large scale implementation of solar for self consumption.
“Grid parity has been reached in India even despite the high cost of capital of around 10-12 percent,” Deutsche Bank notes, and also despite a slight rise in module prices of [3 to 5 cents per kilowatt] in recent months (good for manufacturers).

Italy is another country that appears to be at grid parity, where several developers are under advanced discussions to develop unsubsidized projects in Southern Italy. Deutsche Bank says that for small commercial enterprises that can achieve 50 percent or more self consumption, solar is competitive with grid electricity in most parts of Italy, and commercial businesses in Germany that have the load profile to achieve up to 90 percent self consumption are also finding solar as an attractive source of power generation.

Deutsche bank says demand expected in subsidised markets such as Japan and the UK, including Northern Ireland, is expected to be strong, the US is likely to introduce favourable legislation, including giving solar installations the same status as real estate investment trusts, strong pipelines in Africa and the Middle east, and unexpectedly strong demand in countries such as Mexico and Caribbean nations means that its forecasts for the year are likely to rise.


As Renew Economy ...


http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/03/03/1664481/solar-report-stunner-unsubsidized-grid-parity-has-been-reached-in-india-italy-with-more-countries-coming-in-2014/
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Unsubsidized ‘Grid Parity Has Been Reached In India’, Italy–With More Countries Coming in 2014 (Original Post) kristopher Jun 2013 OP
Hmmm... something there doesn't add up. FBaggins Jun 2013 #1
You don't seem to understand the difference between mfg capacity and demand kristopher Jun 2013 #2
Lol. How ironic. FBaggins Jun 2013 #3
Link to the posts that support your claims. kristopher Jun 2013 #4
Still waiting for those links, Baggins. nt kristopher Jun 2013 #5
Still waiting for those links, Baggins. nt kristopher Jun 2013 #5
Oh.I've.got.them FBaggins Jun 2013 #7
A hint that you aren't telling the truth. kristopher Jun 2013 #8
Is it? FBaggins Jun 2013 #9
"Since I knew where you got them..." kristopher Jun 2013 #10
I didn't say that I had links FBaggins Jun 2013 #11
I see, so you "knew where I got it" but didn't know where it was. kristopher Jun 2013 #12
Yep. FBaggins Jun 2013 #13
"I knew where you got them and how you were misreading them" kristopher Jun 2013 #14
What actually happened kristopher Jun 2013 #15
Nope. FBaggins Jun 2013 #17
You've shown your true colors, Baggins. kristopher Jun 2013 #18
Is the corallary true? FBaggins Jun 2013 #19
Provide the conversations and people can judge for themselves kristopher Jun 2013 #20
I'm not really trying to strike a deal. FBaggins Jun 2013 #21
I know you aren't. kristopher Jun 2013 #22
"Now it's"? FBaggins Jun 2013 #16
Still waiting for those links, Baggins. nt kristopher Jun 2013 #23
Here are a couple FBaggins Jun 2013 #24
Please, don't hide your light under a basket; let it shine! kristopher Jun 2013 #25
Pick your poison FBaggins Jun 2013 #26
Obivously #19 was precient FBaggins Jun 2013 #27
That's the MO .... oldhippie Jun 2013 #28
Tata Solar on a roll with commercial solar in India kristopher Jun 2013 #29

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
1. Hmmm... something there doesn't add up.
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:34 PM
Jun 2013

Was it two years ago or three that you told me that China alone was producing 35GW of solar PV per year?

But now I read that global demand in 2013 is predicted to grow 20% to 30 GW (and you even put it in bold)...

Physics majors have to take lots of math... and I had pretty solid grades... but I confess that I'm struggling with an apparent contradiction.

So do we both know the answer to "It will either be true or it will not be true." yet? Because I knew it back then. But don't worry... you've still got six or seven years to the prediction of 1,000 GW/year.

Let's see... we only need to expand that 20% annual growth rate fivefold to hit that target?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
2. You don't seem to understand the difference between mfg capacity and demand
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 06:17 PM
Jun 2013

Detroit has a capacity to make far more cars than demand at any given time.

Your confusion extends to mischaracterizing my words - your behavior in this regard is both reprehensible and desperate.

I was wrong, but in the other direction. Estimates are now that we hit a global PV manufacturing capacity of 60GW/yr. The shake-out has cut into that, but no one yet knows how much.

You also conveniently forget that I stressed at the time that the Chinese move was a deliberate strategy intended to put older, less efficient and dirtier PV plants out of business.

In short, you are losing it.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
3. Lol. How ironic.
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 07:52 PM
Jun 2013

When it was actually me teaching you the difference.

You were on one of your fantasy rants where you take a manufacturing capacity and instead pretend that that's how much the plant is already producing (and will always produce) and then muliply it out as if they'll all be installed in prime locations... then compare their output to a number of reactors (of course with an artificially low capacity factor)

I was the one who told you that there's a difference between capacity and what is actually produced. Just as I told you the same thing on your identical fantast rant with a plant that produces part of a wind turbine.

Your quote was "The Chinese produce 35GW of panels annually right now". I told you that the entire world demand was predicted to grow rapidly into the low 20s for the then-current year. Looking back, I'm pretty sure that was spot on. That was on a thread that talked about China's goal of 50GW of installed solar capacity (in-country panels, not manufacturing) and you misread it and started talking about it as if they were going to producer that every year. Not the only time you've made that error... since the 1,000GW pipe dream was also for cumulative installed solar globally, rather than annual manufacturing capacity.


I was wrong, but in the other direction. Estimates are now that we hit a global PV manufacturing capacity of 60GW/yr.

You should just stop with the third word and insert a period. You also claimed that it's expected that global manufacturing capacity would hit 1,000 GW/yr by about 2020... yet now you claim your prediction was too low? (BTW - the current prediction for 2020 is a bit over 1/3 that amount)

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
7. Oh.I've.got.them
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:12 AM
Jun 2013

but.I'm afraid you're just going to have to find them yourself.

and yes... that's a hint.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
8. A hint that you aren't telling the truth.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:47 PM
Jun 2013

We have had discussions on the topic, but they certainly were not as you relate them.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
9. Is it?
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:55 PM
Jun 2013

It was a hint because on at least one of those threads I asked for links to back up your claims (since I knew where you got them and how you were misreading them)... and you told me that you had them but I would just have to look it up myself.

Nice to know that you now recognize your behavior as evidence of dishonesty.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
10. "Since I knew where you got them..."
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:06 PM
Jun 2013

So now you're justifying trying to smear me with false statements by saying that I wouldn't provide you a link you had?

That claim is prima facie evidence that your intent is malign and that your actions are both petty and malicious.

Which, in turn, clarifies the probable accuracy of your claims about the content of our previous exchange.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
11. I didn't say that I had links
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:10 PM
Jun 2013

I was just familiar with the subject and knew what you had gotten wrong (and told you so). I wanted you to provide the actual text so that you would be forced to see your own error.

Though I admit that was optomistic of me.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
12. I see, so you "knew where I got it" but didn't know where it was.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jun 2013

And you know what it said, but you hadn't read it.

Thanks for the clarification. I knew that is your M.O., but I appreciate you laying it out for those less familiar with your tactics.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
13. Yep.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:27 PM
Jun 2013

I had read similar projections (such as the 1,000 GW by 2020 prediction), but didn't have a link for it and didn't feel the need to go look for it when you were already claiming it and were the one that needed to re-read it.

And you know what it said, but you hadn't read it.

Nope. I was familiar with how badly you misread things sometimes and could guess at your mistake.

Such as the thread you started where the article talked about China's plan to have 50 GW of installed solar PV by 2020 and you misread it as 50 GW of manufacturing capacity and used that throughout the thread (when the article had nothing to do with that).

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
14. "I knew where you got them and how you were misreading them"
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:42 PM
Jun 2013

Now it's "Nope. I was familiar with how badly you misread things sometimes and could guess at your mistake."

In other words I never said what you claim and your tap dancing is as dishonest as your original assertions.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
15. What actually happened
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:52 PM
Jun 2013

was that you were being your usual obnoxious self and I didn't feel like humoring you. When you asked for a link I told you to look it up yourself. Being a congenital teller of tall tales yourself, you naturally assume others are cast in the same mold and, assuming there was no foundation, you decided to try and make an issue out of it.

In fact, we exceeded the 50GW of global capacity (I said 35 of it was in China, and it was) by 10GW and hit 60GW of manufacturing.

You've been making increasingly distorted claims about what happened and it time for you to either stop or prove you aren't a complete and utterly dishonest person.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
17. Nope.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:52 PM
Jun 2013
you were being your usual obnoxious self and I didn't feel like humoring you

How ironic that you would say that. It's the same reason I'm not doing the work for you on this one.

In fact, we exceeded the 50GW of global capacity (I said 35 of it was in China, and it was) by 10GW and hit 60GW of manufacturing.

In 2011? That would surprise me... but wouldn't be relevant since your original claim was that 35 GWs was how much China alone had already produced in a year (when I told you that projections for 2011 demand were in the 17-23 GW range globally). You later shifted to focusing on manufacturing capacity (without admitting the initial error despite multiple opportunities)... but it didn't keep you from making the installed capacity vs. manufacturing capacity error at both the 50GW and the truly ridiculous 1,000 GW (by 2020) level.

The fact that the 1,000 GW/year claim didn't raise huge red flags for you (even with multiple corrections) leads me to believe that your degree had an "A" at the end rather than as "S". Because that (combined with your prior misunderstandings re: first and second derivatives of a function) implies that you didn't take much math in school.

It shouldn't be hard for you to admit those errors... since they can't be defended (so why try?). Watch... I'll show you how: I noticed that weeks after the start of the conversation, I mistakenly shifted from talking about that 17-23 GW production prediction to using the same figure for capacity... when we were both working off of a list of the top ten producers that alone exceeded most of that range. That was a mistake. I don't know how a slipped.

Now you try.

"If I ever said that China had already produced 35 GW of solar PV... I was totally wrong"
"I don't know where I got the idea that anyone expected 1,000 GW of manufacturing capacity in the coming decade. That would have been nuts and I must have misread it. But surely we can agree that 1,000 GW of cumulative production by that time would be spectacular?"
"I don't know how I started a thread with an article that was talking about China's install goal (since increased) and mistook "installed capacity" to be the same thing as 'manufacturing capacity'... must have been a rough day."

Feel free to copy/paste if it saves time.

Then we can move on to discussing how that prediction of how much wind capacity that single plant would produce/install per year... or how many "off the shelf" wave power plants have been completed compared to that industry paper you kept spamming. Should be fun (by which of course I mean that you were wrong again)

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
18. You've shown your true colors, Baggins.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:02 PM
Jun 2013

Unless you are willing to provide support for your claims, it is safe to assume you are engaged in your usual practice os distortion and misrepresentation with the intent of smearing anyone opposed to nuclear power.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
19. Is the corallary true?
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:13 PM
Jun 2013

Do you admit your errors if I provide the links?

Or do you weasel out again - vanish from the thread - and pretend it never happened the next time it comes up?

Give your word that if I give direct quotes and links and it's what you said... you'll admit that you were wrong - and I'll take the time to find the threads and give the links.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
20. Provide the conversations and people can judge for themselves
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:23 PM
Jun 2013

If I were dealing with an honorable person I'd be more than willing to admit an error, but given your track record the course I expect you to follow would be to engage in yet more distortion and false claims.

Trying to strike such a deal as a precondition to a simple exercise in truth telling is nothing more than a way to "weasel out again" from having your duplicity exposed.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
21. I'm not really trying to strike a deal.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:31 PM
Jun 2013

I'm just demonstrating that the distortion and false claims are all on your side of the conversation. I suspect that you remember the conversation just fine... and that you screwed up... but need to bluster to cover it.

Admitting errors doesn't have anything to do with whether or not your interlocutor is honorable... certainly not by your standards.

It's entirely based on your own sense of honor.

So are you capable of admitting errors even to people you would rather not humble yourself in front of... or not? I just did.

You could still pretend that you were right about everything else if that helps you sleep better.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
22. I know you aren't.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:52 PM
Jun 2013

You clearly demonstrated your duplicity in this thread and now you are trying to shift the emphasis while still weaseling out of your inability to back up your claims.

I'd be happy to post them myself, but since there are no such statements it isn't possible. Which of course, is the crux of your dilemma.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
16. "Now it's"?
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:32 PM
Jun 2013

Two different questions... two different answers. I could tell the mistake that you made and was familiar with the reality behind the error... but I didn't have links - nor was I interested in enabling your juvenile behavior.

In other words I never said what you claim

In previous threads I've given you direct quotes and you just disapeared (or diverted). I'm just making sure that you dig the hole deep enough.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
24. Here are a couple
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 10:55 PM
Jun 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x308673

The article cited says:
This week’s news is in the solar sector, where Chinese officials say they plan to deploy 50 GW of cumulative capacity in the country by 2020. China only has about 1 GW of solar PV installed today…

Yet you took it to mean:

50 GW of module manufacturing capacity...


My reply "2011 GLOBAL production isn't expected to hit half that much (most, but by no means all in China). Current estimates range from 19-22 GWs with some downside risk (already priced in IMHO). was far more accurate.

The next one’s a three-fer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x288951

Let's look at that foolish, foolish statement.

The “foolish foolish” statement that you were disagreeing with was me correcting your claim that solar/wind/biomass combined exceeded nuclear in total production. (For the record… at the time nuclear was almost four times as large in total generation as solar/wind/biomass combined.)

China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year right now.

Really no wiggle room there… though no doubt you’ll try since you’ve wasted all that bluster claiming it never happened. I already know what your spin will be and the error is highlighted in this same thread and the one referenced earlier.

Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year

Still can’t figure out why the angel on one shoulder didn’t kick you and say “I don’t care how much you’ve had to drink tonight Kris… that one just doesn’t make sense”.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
25. Please, don't hide your light under a basket; let it shine!
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:39 AM
Jun 2013

Now that we're clear on the actual text you are using to show what a fool I am, let's take a closer look at the material - all of it.

You've been insinuating for TWO YEARS this is evidence that (paraphrasing your meaning) I'm a wild eyed fool out of touch with reality when it comes to renewables. Remember that - for two years you've been making these Rush Limbaugh style insinuations and I've let it slide because I see little point in sinking to the level you and your Pal Rod Adams are so accustomed to occupying.

You wrote:

The article cited says:
This week’s news is in the solar sector, where Chinese officials say they plan to deploy 50 GW of cumulative capacity in the country by 2020. China only has about 1 GW of solar PV installed today…


Yet you took it to mean:

50 GW of module manufacturing capacity...


My reply
"2011 GLOBAL production isn't expected to hit half that much (most, but by no means all in China). Current estimates range from 19-22 GWs with some downside risk (already priced in IMHO).
was far more accurate.


Now, what did the article actually say?

Will China’s 50 GW goal create a solar bubble? No.
In fact, the dramatic scaling of solar manufacturing capacity is just what’s needed to keeps costs dropping

By Stephen Lacey on May 12, 2011 at 1:50 pm

...Seemingly every week there’s another story about how China is upping the U.S. in the race to develop clean energy. This week’s news is in the solar sector, where Chinese officials say they plan to deploy 50 GW of cumulative capacity in the country by 2020. China only has about 1 GW of solar PV installed today (and no concentrated solar thermal power).

<snip 2 para>

“It’s actually nothing crazy,” he says. “I have a hard time seeing this creating a global undersupply – we’ll have 50 GW of module manufacturing capacity by the end of this year. The goal is doable.”...


The NEXT LINE is my remark:
50 GW of moducle manufacturing capacity...
Assuming a 20% capacity factor for solar, and an 80% capacity factor on 1GW nuclear plants that means these factories are going to be turning out enough panels to generate the same amount of electricity as 12.5 nuclear plants ...
- that is a new 12.5 completed nuclear power plants equivalent each and every year...
- online and producing electricity....


Now, perhaps you can explain precisely how I've misread or misunderstood the content of the article?

More after your reply.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
26. Pick your poison
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:58 AM
Jun 2013
You've been insinuating for TWO YEARS this is evidence that (paraphrasing your meaning) I'm a wild eyed fool out of touch with reality when it comes to renewables

Not at all. Generally speaking you're pretty solid (we have wild eyed fools on both sides - you're not one of them). But you have some big gaps in your perception of reality that cause you to misread things (both in the news and in others' posts)... and you're often "round the bend" when it comes to nuclear power.

Now, perhaps you can explain precisely how I've misread or misunderstood the content of the article?

As I said in the title... there are two possibilities (both documented in the prior reply). Your two errors are:
A - Misreading a cumulative installed capacity to instead be an annual production capacity (as demonstrated by the 1,000 GW error)
B - Misreading a production capacity as the amount of something that will actually be produced - or worse, the production capacity of one subset of a process as the amount of a thing that will be produced/installed (as demonstrated with that nacelle factory around the same time as these links - and on one of these threads where you outright questioned why anyone would build capacity unless they expected to use it).

The fact that this example includes "50 GW" in both cases leaves open both possibilities and I confess that I jumped to a conclusion re: which one you were making. If you're telling me "I didn't make mistake A here... I made mistake B!" - that's fine. I can own misreading that.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
27. Obivously #19 was precient
Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:30 AM
Jun 2013
Or do you weasel out again - vanish from the thread - and pretend it never happened the next time it comes up?
 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
28. That's the MO ....
Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:01 AM
Jun 2013

Divert, deflect, and disappear. Only to reappear with a new set of official talking points.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
29. Tata Solar on a roll with commercial solar in India
Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:56 AM
Jun 2013
Tata Wins Over IBM, Dell With Solar Cheaper Than Grid
By Natalie Obiko Pearson

Tata Group’s solar unit is expanding its business building plants for customers, forecasting that offices and factories will be paying more for grid power than solar by 2016 in most Indian states.

...

“We’re seeing a huge uptake as we get closer and closer to grid parity,” Goel said in a phone interview. “Corporate customers are coming to us to install solar on their rooftops or land on the side of their factories because it can provide energy cheaper than from the grid.”

The investment can pay for itself in a year if the customer is able to claim tax depreciation benefits or about four years if they can’t, Goel said. The economics improve further when businesses calculate the cost of diesel burned during daily blackouts. Diesel generators cost about 17 rupees per kilowatt-hour to run, more than double the cost of solar, according to HSBC Holdings Plc.

Cheap Solar
Commercial consumers such as hotels and shopping malls, which pay the highest rates for electricity from the grid, can already generate solar power cheaper in 10 percent of India’s 35 states and territories, Goel said. By 2016, that’ll be true in 60 percent of India’s states and territories, and if government subsidies are considered, the number will increase to 80 percent.

...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/tata-wins-over-ibm-dell-with-solar-cheaper-than-grid.html
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