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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:06 PM Dec 2013

Statistics: Nuclear down, renewables up




Statistics
Nuclear down, renewables up


Today, energy expert Bernard Chabot is back with a special Christmas present – an overview of the global power sector over the past decade. There are three salient findings: the rise of China, the demise of nuclear, and the appearance of non-hydro renewables.

As usual, the slides are available as a PDF, but I want to draw your attention to a few things. First, slide 17 shows that power production is basically flat throughout the OECD, but it nearly tripled in China from 2003-2012 and nearly doubled in India (albeit from a much lower level – Chinese power production is currently nearly 5 times as great as India's). The only other major increase was in the Rest of the World, which saw power production to grow by more than 20 percent.

More importantly for this website, you have probably heard of a renaissance of nuclear power; I have certainly been hearing about it since Chernobyl. But slide 20 reveals that power production from nuclear plants is also basically flat over the past decade, with a slight dip in 2012 after Japan shut down more than 50 nuclear plants and Germany followed suit with eight of its own.

But overall power production has been growing, so the share of nuclear in total supply (see slide 22) has actually slipped by 4.7 percentage points from 15.7 percent in 2003 to 11 percent in 2012. Note that this decrease is discernible all the way back to 2004; it is not a sudden dip as a result of Fukushima in 2012.

Non-hydro renewables have not quite managed to fill that gap, rising only by 3.0 percentage points over the past decade, but there has been an uptick...


http://www.renewablesinternational.net/nuclear-down-renewables-up/150/537/75598/
59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Statistics: Nuclear down, renewables up (Original Post) kristopher Dec 2013 OP
Few steps forward are better than no steps at all. darkangel218 Dec 2013 #1
kristopher's DESPERATION! PamW Dec 2013 #2
21% > 11% kristopher Dec 2013 #3
How TYPICAL - completely missed the lesson! PamW Dec 2013 #4
lol! darkangel218 Dec 2013 #5
Btw, darkangel218 Dec 2013 #6
This is about reading comprehension, not math caraher Dec 2013 #11
100% WRONG!!! PamW Dec 2013 #15
Interesting fact-free rebuttal caraher Dec 2013 #22
You have to learn to read in context... PamW Dec 2013 #29
Necessity for nuclear power?? darkangel218 Dec 2013 #7
WHY pray tell... PamW Dec 2013 #8
LMAOROFL!!!! darkangel218 Dec 2013 #10
Without italics I never listen...... FogerRox Dec 2013 #38
Fascinating question! caraher Dec 2013 #12
Teacher LOL madokie Dec 2013 #14
Amazing!!! PamW Dec 2013 #16
Pamw you think everyone is stupid madokie Dec 2013 #24
Then you must have FORGOTTEN!!! PamW Dec 2013 #30
Heres what you said, madokie Dec 2013 #33
And the statement is CORRECT!!!! PamW Dec 2013 #37
Pamw madokie Dec 2013 #39
100% WRONG!!! PamW Dec 2013 #40
LOL Good Gawd almighty you're funny LOL madokie Dec 2013 #41
Thoughtful, Intelligent, Balanced Engineering analysis vs... PamW Dec 2013 #53
So now youre calling us "elementary school kids" who "dont like what is being taught" darkangel218 Dec 2013 #45
bookmarked for being priceless Iterate Dec 2013 #25
Why do you persist in leaving out the most important source of all? GliderGuider Dec 2013 #9
Why would I alter someone else's graph? kristopher Dec 2013 #13
Was the Manhattan Project "economically efficient"? GliderGuider Dec 2013 #17
Why do you want to misuse the term economic efficiency? kristopher Dec 2013 #18
So, how much have carbon emissions declined as a result of your sandbox games? GliderGuider Dec 2013 #19
The OP shows you are yet again incorrect. kristopher Dec 2013 #20
Actually GuiderGlider is CORRECT!!! PamW Dec 2013 #21
I wouldn't get too smug just yet, Dr. Evangelist. GliderGuider Dec 2013 #23
I meant in the USA!! PamW Dec 2013 #31
Renewables up, nuclear down, carbon dioxide concentrations rising at the highest rate ever! NNadir Dec 2013 #26
Said as he drives his SUV off into the sunset... kristopher Dec 2013 #27
I thought you were the one who drove a truck XemaSab Dec 2013 #32
It's the rant by Nnads that makes his use of an SUV & a heavy duty pickup relevant. kristopher Dec 2013 #36
Really? I have a pick up and a SUV? NNadir Dec 2013 #48
Sorry, but I'm not a car salesman. NNadir Dec 2013 #42
I think everyone missed the point of that product sale Iterate Dec 2013 #46
I'm preternaturally uninterested in car CULTure stuff. I'm far more interested in the state... NNadir Dec 2013 #47
My simple electric car maxim... PamW Dec 2013 #49
Good points. Most places in the world, with the obvious exception of France... NNadir Dec 2013 #52
and northern Illinois; the Commonwealth Edison service area. PamW Dec 2013 #55
Good Point!! PamW Dec 2013 #56
Actually, the radioactivity associated with lanthanide mine tailings from wind turbines, hybrid... NNadir Dec 2013 #58
Actually you missed the embedded point, Iterate Dec 2013 #50
Oh please... NNadir Dec 2013 #51
Out of the frying pan... PamW Dec 2013 #57
I though you liked numbers? Iterate Dec 2013 #59
The great majority of people who will die this year from air pollution madokie Dec 2013 #28
Pot meat kettle... PamW Dec 2013 #34
What ever you think pamw madokie Dec 2013 #35
You are obviously unfamiliar with the epidemiology and the science of air pollution. NNadir Dec 2013 #43
+1 phantom power Dec 2013 #44
+1 PamW Dec 2013 #54

PamW

(1,825 posts)
2. kristopher's DESPERATION!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:38 PM
Dec 2013

As always, kristopher has been exploiting the "pole" at zero.

When ever one cites a percentage change in a small quantity, the denominator is near zero because the quantity is small.

That makes percentages large. After all, ANY finite change to a quantity that is actually zero is an INFINITE percentage.

But it is NOT percentage change that keeps people's lights on! It's the actual value.

In that regard, renewables are a PALTRY component of the electric energy mix.

Environmentalists without scientific training are INCAPABLE of understanding the ultimate LIMITS on renewables that will keep renewables a MINOR player in electric generation, in spite of the ill-founded "greenie wet dreams" of an all renewable distributed electric grid.

If the environmentalists keep ignoring the scientists about the necessity for nuclear power, and continue down the same path; then the global warming crisis will be ASSURED.

Future generations who will experience the consequences of global warming will CURSE and DAMN the present day "environmentalists" for their intransigence on the one energy source that could have prevented those consequences.

They will reap the OPPROBRIUM of future generations for their lack of vision.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. 21% > 11%
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:53 PM
Dec 2013

14% = 2003 spread between nuclear and nonhydro renewables

6.3% = 2012 spread between nuclear and nonhydro renewables

PamW

(1,825 posts)
4. How TYPICAL - completely missed the lesson!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:24 PM
Dec 2013

I just got done explaining to kristopher how the "pole" at zero DISTORTS percentages.

The denominator near zero makes for large percentages since ANY finite change is an INFINITE percentage.

The take away is that percentage changes of quantities near zero gives one a FALSE impression.

After making that point; what do I get from kristopher but MORE PERCENTAGES

SIGH!!

Additionally, kristopher is quoting nameplate power and NOT ENERGY.

The PISS POOR capacity factors of renewables is IGNORED in kristopher's statistics.

The old maxim goes; "There's liars, damn liars, and statisticians"

PamW

caraher

(6,278 posts)
11. This is about reading comprehension, not math
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 06:17 PM
Dec 2013

"Additionally, kristopher is quoting nameplate power and NOT ENERGY. "

Ummm, no. The article in the OP clearly states this is "generation" and not capacity. Digging deeper, the presentation linked within the article cited in the OP is very clear that this is about actual electricity generated and not "nameplate" capacity; they're citing BP's Statistical Review of World Energy in which "Data are based on gross generation from renewable sources including wind, geothermal, solar, biomass and waste, and not accounting for cross-border electricity supply."

GliderGuider's post is perhaps most illuminating, in that the nuclear relative "decline" is mainly the product of ever-increasing generation from fossil fuel sources. Nuclear electricity generation has actually been fairly flat in absolute terms over the period in question, and renewables' share increased because their growth exceeded the growth in fossil-fuel electric generation. It doesn't do much good to have either renewables or nuclear hit higher percentage marks, when the only thing climate "cares" about is whether we drive down the absolute amount of fossil fuel burning.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
15. 100% WRONG!!!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:15 PM
Dec 2013

caraher,

NO - it IS about the numbers and NOT reading comprehension.

It's about knowing what the TRUE NUMBERS are. If the article states as you say; then IT is WRONG!!.

Who cares about proper reading of an article with MISINFORMATION?

In actuality; nuclear power has actually gone slightly UP.

Although there haven't been any new nuclear power plants brought online in recent history; the NRC has continued to UPRATE current power plants.

That means they have received revisions to their operating licenses to allow them to operate at higher power.

PamW

caraher

(6,278 posts)
22. Interesting fact-free rebuttal
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:44 PM
Dec 2013

Don't like BP's numbers? How about this from the World Nuclear Association (which seems to show a decline since 2006 or so):



Never mind that the NRC may have uprated a few plants in the US; the OP is about global production, and clearly those increases don't change the global picture appreciably. But of course, the Have Caps Lock, Will Babble MO doesn't include reading a source carefully enough to realize that the domain is world production and that the data are about electricity generation, not capacity.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
29. You have to learn to read in context...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:04 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:37 PM - Edit history (2)

caraher,

I would have thought that since I mentioned that the NRC uprating plants; that I was speaking in the context of US nuclear production.

Since you failed to deduce the context of the remark from the content; I will explicitly point out the context for you next time I explain something to you.

It helps a teacher to know the limitations of her students.

Besides, what is one to conclude from a graph that tells us that the power production of nuclear is down; WITHOUT giving the REASON?

If the reduction were due to a series of mechanical malfunctions, and things breaking; that would be one thing. But that's NOT the reason. The reason nuclear is down is because of, as it has always been, POLITICAL decisions. For example, Merkel's government in Germany deciding to phase out nuclear power.

Such a POLITICAL decision is rather QUESTIONABLE, given what the vast majority of SCIENTISTS, like climate scientist Dr. James Hansen says:

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/23/jim-hansen-presses-the-climate-case-for-nuclear-energy/

Can renewable energies provide all of society’s energy needs in the foreseeable future? It is conceivable in a few places, such as New Zealand and Norway. But suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.

PamW

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
7. Necessity for nuclear power??
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 04:36 PM
Dec 2013

No thanks!!

Why don't you start up a poll and see what's the percentage of DUers who agree with you??

I have a feeling it would be very very tiny

PamW

(1,825 posts)
8. WHY pray tell...
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 04:51 PM
Dec 2013

WHY pray tell would I care AT ALL about what DUers think????

I KNOW what SCIENTISTS say. Like climate scientist Dr. James Hansen:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires. While it may be theoretically possible to stabilize the climate without nuclear power, in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

The USA's energy future will NOT be dictated by DUers that don't know the relevant science, and why renewables are LIMITED.

If Mother Nature says that renewables can't do it; and she DOES; then even a unanimous vote of DUers won't change that.

If the climate problem is solved, it will be the SCIENTISTS that do it.

How typical; I'm not here to sway anybody, or get permission.

I'm here to EDUCATE you!!

So you might understand how we SCIENTISTS are going to solve the problem; and why we IGNORED your wishes.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
10. LMAOROFL!!!!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:34 PM
Dec 2013

You're here to educate me, huh? Do you think caps and bold letters are going to make anyone who is against nuclear energy, accept it??



Gawd, this is funny!! Thanks for the laughs!!

caraher

(6,278 posts)
12. Fascinating question!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 06:23 PM
Dec 2013

"WHY pray tell would I care AT ALL about what DUers think???? "

You do not care AT ALL, yet somehow find the time to give the ol' caps lock key a heavy workout on a pretty regular basis. Since you don't care what people here think, I trust you're being well-compensated for your sojourns in what you clearly conceive of as "enemy territory."

You should probably watch out for typos... occasionally your fingers betray you when they slip into habitual patterns...

madokie

(51,076 posts)
14. Teacher LOL
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:09 PM
Dec 2013
A fool that knows he is a fool is one that knows he don't know all about anything, but the fool that don't know he is a fool is the one that thinks he knows all about anything. Then he is a damn fool." - Will Rogers



Damn fool is right

PamW

(1,825 posts)
16. Amazing!!!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:18 PM
Dec 2013

It's really AMAZING what some people find funny.

I keep experiencing the same thing all the time here.

I can post an explanation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; complete with references to University Physics Departments validating same.

However, people don't like what is being taught; so they make fun of it.

It's like the kids in elementary school that spent all their time clowning around and laughing instead of learning.

Wonder where those clowns are now?

PamW

madokie

(51,076 posts)
24. Pamw you think everyone is stupid
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:57 PM
Dec 2013

there in lies your problem. Most of us learned the second law of thermodynamics long ago in junior high.
You see most of us don't feel compelled to try to educate you as you seem to think that is your mission for us
Fail is all I see.



As someone said earlier, gawd you are funny

Have a good night I plan too.

ETA: I remember well when you tried to tell me there was hardly any losses in the gears of an automobile drive train. Something you were totally and completely WRONG about. So again I have to laugh at you

For a tip: Why don't you try to be a little bit more congenial and you might get along a little better here.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
30. Then you must have FORGOTTEN!!!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:19 AM
Dec 2013

madokie states
Most of us learned the second law of thermodynamics long ago in junior high.

IF it were true that most here learned the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in junior high; then they sure didn't understand it, or how to apply it, or may have simply forgotten it.

We still have people on this forum that still complain that heat engines release "waste heat", and that is unnecessary and can be eliminated.

We still have people on this forum that say we should be developing "100 efficient" heat engines; when such is forbidden by the 2nd Law.

Madokie evidently does NOT LEARN.

What I told madokie before was that the efficiencies of the gears in an automobile are in the 90+% percentile. The types of gears in auto drive trains are spur, bevel and helical for the most part. We see here a comparison of the mechanical efficiencies of those types of gears courtesy of an information hub for mechanical engineers:

http://www.meadinfo.org/2008/11/gear-efficiency-spur-helical-bevel-worm.html

The above reference VALIDATES EXACTLY what I told madokie before.

Evidently, he didn't learn the science before. He didn't LEARN that I was CORRECT back then, and we now find that he has been harboring some DELUSION that I was wrong and he was right.

So he's back with some MISINFORMATION that I was wrong; and he's laughing about it.

Well I can just tell madokie to have fun laughing when he is 100% WRONG. However, by laughing instead of learning, it nixes his chances for ever being correct.

Laugh on, madokie. Laugh on!

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

madokie

(51,076 posts)
33. Heres what you said,
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:37 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www/:/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=115&topic_id=301249
pamw says
Gears do not waste energy, they are one of the most efficient parts of an automobile.


No where in this exchange did you say anything close to what you just lied about when you said:
(What I told madokie before was that the efficiencies of the gears in an automobile are in the 90+% percentile. The types of gears in auto drive trains are spur, bevel and helical for the most part. We see here a comparison of the mechanical efficiencies of those types of gears courtesy of an information hub for mechanical engineers


this is a perfect example of why I have no use for whatever you have to say, TEACHER LADY. Gawd you're funny

I'll remove this for the sake of DU.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
37. And the statement is CORRECT!!!!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:02 PM
Dec 2013

madokie,

Let's go through the automobile drive train:

Engine: What do you think the efficiency of an automobile engine is. It's about 18%-20% efficient

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency

Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%

As shown above; gears are some of the most efficient parts with efficiencies in the 90+% percentile.

So what is YOUR solution for the problems that engineers solve using gears?

Suppose you have a relatively high RPM source of rotational motion.

Suppose the rotation rate has been optimized for the most common conditions for a vehicle. My car has the optional "high efficiency" axle gear.

However, every so often the car needs to climb up one of the many hills that we have in this area.

The "high efficiency" ( which translates to low torque ) axle gearing isn't good for climbing hills.

I need more torque. So how do you get more torque? You trade RPMs for torque.

When you "gear down", you lower the RPMs, but the gears compensate by giving you more mechanical advantage, i.e. more torque.

So what would YOU use to solve the problem of getting more torque from a gearing optimized for running flat?

Madokie has made statements in this thread that CONTRADICT the statements of renown scientists. Perhaps he knows better.

Here's madokie's opportunity to show us just how well he actually understands the science and engineering.

So here's the challenge madokie; show us how one solves the above problem without gears. You give us your solution, and I will "grade" it as to how well you've done. So we can really see what you have in terms of scientific acumen. You are going to end up looking pretty good, or pretty foolish depending on your performance. Up to the challenge?

In the context of the discussion in which I made the statement quoted above; the topic was why the overall efficiency of the automobile was as low as it is.

The main reason for that is the engine. Autos are propelled by heat engines that are limited by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; and of course, the Carnot Limit is an "idealization", actual engines fall short of approaching the Carnot Efficiency.

Madokie made the claim that it was the "gears" that were wasting the energy.

Again, the gears ARE very efficient. A mechanical coupling using gears beats practically everything else; fluid couplings, motor-generator sets, ... when it comes to efficiency of going from mechanical energy to mechanical energy such as high RPM / low torque to low RPM / high torque.

So I definitely STAND by the statement above in the context in which it was made.

Madokie can laugh all he wants; it just means he is NOT LEARNING anything.

PamW

madokie

(51,076 posts)
39. Pamw
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:24 PM
Dec 2013

I didn't make a claim that gears are the only problem. I simply pointed out that there are losses in the gears in the transmission and differential.

As I stated in the linked to discussion, what we/they should have done is the same as what they do with locomotives, that is use an engine turning a generator with an electric motor turning the wheels. hardly if any gears are needed in that system as an electric motor has its most torque right off stand still where it is needed most and why an automobile has a transmission and differential to begin with.

Don't make me laugh at you again by grading me, gawd you're funny . Ah hell I'll laugh at your ass anyway

Most efficient way to transmit power is by chain actually, geared up or geared down, it doesn't matter chain is the most efficient. Using chains are not practical though in this case so they're not used.

BTW you're talking to a person who understands the carnot cycle and mechanics very well so you'll not be educating me at all on this subject rather you're only be showing your ass

I've figured you out and thats in your eyes the whole world is stupid except you.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
40. 100% WRONG!!!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:55 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:04 PM - Edit history (2)

madokie state
As I stated in the linked to discussion, what we/they should have done is the same as what they do with locomotives, that is use an engine turning a generator with an electric motor turning the wheels. hardly if any gears are needed in that system as an electric motor has its most torque right off stand still where it is needed most and why an automobile has a transmission and differential to begin with.

As usual, you are 100% WRONG!!!

You make the claim above that auto engineers should have done what locomotive engineers do.

Why do you "think" that auto engineers didn't do what the locomotive engineers do; they didn't think of it?

One of the biggest builders of locomotives is GM - General Motors. The EXACT SAME engineers that designed the locomotives with electric motor drive are also the same ones that design the GM cars with GEARS.

http://www.fact-index.com/g/ge/general_motors_electro_motive_division.html

General Motors Electro-Motive Division

General Motors' Electro-Motive Division (normally shortened to GM EMD or just EMD) is the world's largest builder of railroad locomotives. General Electric is (narrowly) No. 2, and between them they have built the overwhelming majority of the locomotives in service in North America and a large proportion of those in the rest of the world as well.

EMD can lay claim to being the company that ended the dominion of the steam locomotive on the world's railroads,...

The origins of what were to become EMD were in 1922, when H.L. Hamilton and Paul Turner founded a company they called Electro-Motive Engineering in Cleveland, Ohio....

The problem here is your LACK of UNDERSTANDING. You "think" that because a solution works good at locomotive level; then it must be the correct solution for all levels.

Your statement about chains is true at the level of a bicycle; but it is NOT true for locomotives and autos; where stresses are MUCH greater.

The problem here is your LACK of engineering experience / training into "thinking" that "one size fits all" for all levels. That it NOT TRUE.

For example, you are WRONG about why cars need differentials. The very name "differential" should give you an idea of why they are needed. The differential allows there to be a differential or "difference" in the turning rate of the driving wheels when going around a corner. Cars make sharp turns and the outside wheel has to spin faster than the inboard wheel. That is taken care of with a differential.

Trains don't need to do that because they don't make sharp turns. Your one size fits all engineering "competence" FAILS AGAIN.

If you had to do the job of the differential on an electric drive; then you'd need an energy-hungry transformer to adjust the voltage / amperage.

It should be a clue to you that electric cars such as the Tesla; use mechanical differentials because gears are better than electricity for some applications.

http://www.teslamotors.com/it_IT/forum/forums/rear-differential-positraction

It is an open differential, and the car emulates a limited slip differential by using the brakes separately in each rear wheel. Ie, if one wheel is spinning while the other isn't, it will apply brakes lightly to the spinning wheel to make sure some torque reaches the other wheel.

But your SIMPLISTIC and ONE SIZE FITS ALL "pseudo-reasoning" does NOT work.

It would take me more time than I have now to explain to you all the engineering principles that you are MISSING

So just "Laugh On" NON-LEARNER.

Evidently some times there is so much undeserved pride; that some can not admit their limitations and FAILINGS.

Laugh On - it's what you are good at.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
53. Thoughtful, Intelligent, Balanced Engineering analysis vs...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:13 AM
Dec 2013

In response to a claim that the automotive companies were in some way remiss in not employing a locomotive-type electric drive on automobiles, I responded with:

You make the claim above that auto engineers should have done what locomotive engineers do.

Why do you "think" that auto engineers didn't do what the locomotive engineers do; they didn't think of it?

One of the biggest builders of locomotives is GM - General Motors. The EXACT SAME engineers that designed the locomotives with electric motor drive are also the same ones that design the GM cars with GEARS.

So-called "environmentalists" seem to get enamoured with the fact that electric motors produce their peak torque at stall, and that drives their "thinking" even to the point where the small percentage inefficiency of gears are to be eschewed at all cost. The result is a shallow, incomplete, and unbalanced analysis.

The GM engineers employed both types of drivetrains; the conventional ICE and transmission for automobiles and the diesel-electric drive for locomotives. Why is that? In a nutshell; the requirements are different.

The engineer also recognizes the virtues of the fact that the maximum torque of an electric motor is at stall; but unlike the "environmentalist" the analysis doesn't stop there. The high intelligence of the engineer naturally inquires about what is needed to utilize the diesel-electric drive. What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? What are the tradeoffs?

For an electric drive; one needs three major components. The first is the engine. ( A diesel in locomotives, but could just a well be gasoline in a car. ). The engine will be providing the energy to provide motion. The actual motive force for the wheels comes from the traction motor(s). This also is a fairly substantial and massive component roughly comparable in size and mass with the engine. An all-electric Tesla has a traction motor in what would have been the engine compartment, and derives the energy to run it from batteries. In addition, the electric drive needs the alternator / generator; which for the needed capacity would also be roughly equivalent in size and mass to the engine and traction motor.

The problem with locomotive-type electric drive is that YOU NEED ALL THREE!!!

The car would have to have roughly THREE TIMES the engine compartment space as a standard car.

Additionally, the additional WEIGHT of having 3 massive components is going to drive down the efficiency. The more massive car would take more kinetic energy at any given speed, than would a conventionally driven car.

That added mass also affects another MAJOR source of inefficiency; "rolling resistance". Our cars roll on pneumatic rubber tires in order to get a smooth ride. Those tires flex as they revolve. Look at your car sometime in the driveway and note that the bottom part of the tire is "flatter" than the topmost part. Naturally, it's bearing the weight of the vehicle. As you drive, and the wheels are turning, each angular portion of the tire takes its turn at the bottom and being flexed. As you drive, your tires flex and unflex, flex and unflex as the tire rolls. That results in lost energy in heat and inefficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance

As can be seen from the formula presented, this resistance is proportional to the normal force "N"; which will be the weight of the car. The more massive car with engine, alternator, and traction motor is going to have MUCH MUCH more rolling resistance and inefficiency. That is going to TOTALLY SWAMP the few percent that the use of gears would introduce.

So with the above disadvantages, why is diesel-electric drive used in locomotives. SIMPLE - the situation is different.

In regard to the amount of space; a locomotive is mostly drive-train. There's a cab for the engineer(s), but the locomotive is not going to be carrying passengers and luggage like a car. So one can devote an entire vehicle to housing the drive train.

In terms of mass; the locomotive is usually hauling a train with many cars; so the mass of the locomotive is a small percentage of the mass of the train. If you double the mass of the locomotive, it's a marginal increase to the mass of the train.

In terms of rolling resistance; trains run on steel wheels and not pneumatic tires. We really aren't interested in giving the cargo a smooth ride as we do in passenger car.

So the circumstances are different and diesel-electric drive makes sense for a locomotive.

In a car, the desire to be more efficient drives one to utilize an engine with a transmission. The PALTRY energy loss in the gears of the transmission buys one a MAJOR reduction in weight, and is, of course, the PROPER, CORRECT, and the INTELLIGENT engineering decision.

So the highly intelligent engineers at GM took a complete, global, and engineering competent, and balanced analysis; and designed vehicles with the APPROPRIATE type of drive train for the circumstances in which the vehicle would be used. The GM engineers designed cars with conventional automotive drive trains, and they designed diesel-electric drives for locomotives for the different circumstances they faced.

This is in stark contrast to an analysis that terminates at stage 1, and is therefore SHALLOW, and INCOMPLETE. The thoughtless, shallow analysis arrives at a conclusion of "one size fits all". The engineering solution appropriate for a locomotive is automatically appropriate for a car with ZERO analysis of the requirements faced by an automobile.

I guess if the only tool one has in one's toolbox is a hammer; every problem "looks" like a nail.

Of course, real engineers are highly intelligent as well as highly trained and degreed and have the MULTIPLE tools in their mental toolbox to arrive at the CORRECT engineering answers.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
45. So now youre calling us "elementary school kids" who "dont like what is being taught"
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:38 PM
Dec 2013

Jebus Christ!!


...


I feel bad for you, to be honest.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
9. Why do you persist in leaving out the most important source of all?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:17 PM
Dec 2013


Since 2008:
Annual nuclear power production has dropped by 95 Twh.
Renewables have added 505 Twh/year.
Hydro has added 457 Twh/year.

Fossil fuels have added 1353 Twh/year.

The question in the subject line is rhetorical, by the way. We all know why.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. Why would I alter someone else's graph?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:00 PM
Dec 2013

The text says exactly the same thing caraher described above, and I was careful to include the tidbit about the failure of non-hydro renewables to completely make up for the loss of nuclear.

From the OP snip:

"More importantly for this website, you have probably heard of a renaissance of nuclear power; I have certainly been hearing about it since Chernobyl. But slide 20 reveals that power production from nuclear plants is also basically flat over the past decade, with a slight dip in 2012 after Japan shut down more than 50 nuclear plants and Germany followed suit with eight of its own.

But overall power production has been growing, so the share of nuclear in total supply (see slide 22) has actually slipped by 4.7 percentage points from 15.7 percent in 2003 to 11 percent in 2012. Note that this decrease is discernible all the way back to 2004; it is not a sudden dip as a result of Fukushima in 2012.

Non-hydro renewables have not quite managed to fill that gap, rising only by 3.0 percentage points over the past decade, but there has been an uptick


The primary purpose of the article and the supporting graph is a comparison of renewables to nuclear. It is self evident that the balance of generation is from fossil fuels and the text points out that "overall power production has been growing".

Whether you like it or not, there is an inevitable conflict between a system oriented around variable generation and one oriented around centralized thermal "baseload" generation. While the progress in displacing fossil is an important piece of information for some purposes, it isn't directly relevant to others. We KNOW fossil fuels need to be replaced; the question is what is the fastest, most effective and economically efficient path to that goal. Compulsively including the goal in every utterance is the sign of a disorganized mind.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
17. Was the Manhattan Project "economically efficient"?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:33 PM
Dec 2013

Because that's what we would have needed to prevent catastrophic global warming if we'd started it 50 years ago. Concentrating on the economic efficiency of minor players has been a recipe for fail. Now the game is pretty much over, and economists like you have killed a global civilization.

Thanks a heap, evangelist.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
18. Why do you want to misuse the term economic efficiency?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:50 PM
Dec 2013

I've dealt with you enough to give you credit for actually knowing the meaning, so that means your attack is just that, a baseless And dishonest attack.

To put it in simple terms for those who aren't as informed as you, the impact of economic efficiency is "getting the most bang for your carbon reducing buck".

What you are rejecting is the attempt to most effectively utilize our resources. Whether we end up devoting a miserly sum to the problem or end up throwing every thing we have at it a la an Apollo Project (not a manhattan project) getting the most carbon reduction for every dollar and day we spend is a crucial part of the addressing the problem.

Why would you suggest that we spend any part of our limited time or budget not getting the most reduction possible?

Maybe you should take a few days off. Get some fresh air, do some stretching and find something to smile about.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
19. So, how much have carbon emissions declined as a result of your sandbox games?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:06 PM
Dec 2013

None? That's not very efficient, is it?

You and your pusillanimous, obfuscating, misdirecting, game-playing ilk are part of the problem, kristopher. You're all selling shit you don't own.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
20. The OP shows you are yet again incorrect.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:18 PM
Dec 2013

Not in the statement, but in tantrum of a 3 year old that can't understand why instant gratification isn't coming their way just because they stamp their foot and hold their breath.

And I have to be honest, your appraisal of our situation has less credibility than nearly anyone here precisely because you so often just throw the facts out of the window and retreat into your fantasy world. Like now, you appeal to supposedly noble intentions when you do it but living in a world of unreality isn't going to accomplish anything anywhere.


We are a decade ahead of where planners 10 years ago thought we'd be. The rate of ramping up deployment is increasing.
The prognostications of the established energy agencies regarding the pace of change has been shown time and time and time again to be wildly conservative.

Go find something to smile about.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
21. Actually GuiderGlider is CORRECT!!!
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:41 PM
Dec 2013

kristopher is either being MISLED or is MISLEADING by the normalization; i.e. taking percentages.

Guider Glider is CORRECT.

What is really happening when you use the actual energy, and not normalized percentages is that fossil fuel use is INCREASING

Nuclear power is going up also, but more modestly due to reactor uprates. Since fossil fuel usage is increasing even faster than the nuclear increase; the nuclear percentage falls.

Renewables get a boost in percentage; since they are such a PALTRY part of the mix.

The low denominator helps renewables percentage-wise by an amount that is greater than the fossil fuel increase.

Hence, the percentage numbers seem to tell the story that renewables are increasing, and nuclear is decreasing.

What is REALLY happening is that fossil fuels are INCREASING and making the smaller increase in nuclear look like a decrease.

The modest increase in renewables because of they are such a PALTRY contribution, and hence have a low denominator; the percentage increase LOOKS good.

But the main take away should be: Percentage increases don't keep your lights on!

What one really should be presenting is UNNORMALIZED energy amounts.

Percentages ( which are really the dreaded fractions ) can easily confuse those who do not have a good grounding in mathematics.

The non-scientists here are the ones that I would say are not well grounded in mathematics.

However, the prime directive here appears to be obfuscation, and not helping people with real understanding. That's why we get so much "spin" and confusion with percentages. It's all a way of giving people the wrong impression.

I prefer to espouse honest, scientifically sound information for people to make up their own minds.

I dislike the schemes to either scare them or "con" them.

PamW

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
23. I wouldn't get too smug just yet, Dr. Evangelist.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:12 PM
Dec 2013

If you're going to trumpet yourself as an honest man, the first criterion is that you must actually BE honest.

You say, with NO references, "Nuclear power is going up also, but more modestly due to reactor uprates."

Looks to me like you're playing the "future capacity" game, just like our other evangelistic friend. The actual amount of power produced by your beloved nukes has been declining since it peaked in 2007, with one small bump in 2011.



You make me sick too, evangelist.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
31. I meant in the USA!!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:31 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Because I stated that the increase was due to the NRC uprating plants; and the actions of the NRC applies only in the USA; my remark taken in context concerns the amount of energy from nuclear power plants in the USA, and NOT the world.

Yes - there has been a decrease of late with nations dropping support for nuclear power for one reason or another.

However, IF we are going to solve the REAL problem, which as you correctly point out is that fossil fuels are WINNING; then renewables and nuclear and their supporters have to stop their infighting.

I see a solution in an energy mix that contains both nuclear and renewables. I never said we should ditch renewables. However, I do point out the limitations that scientists like those at the National Academy of Science and their studies point out that 100% renewable, or 90% renewable are "greenie wet dreams" that are NOT going to happen.

My vision is on a par with the climate scientists like Dr. Hansen that recently wrote in their open letter:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires. While it may be theoretically possible to stabilize the climate without nuclear power, in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

Like Hansen and his colleagues; I see a role for renewables; it just won't be an overwhelmingly dominant role as some hypothesize because of the physical limitations identified by scientists. I only quarrel about renewables when someone says "100% renewables, and no nukes". As Hansen and colleagues point out; that attitude is counter-productive.

Perhaps Hansen says it best:

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/23/jim-hansen-presses-the-climate-case-for-nuclear-energy/?_r=0

Can renewable energies provide all of society’s energy needs in the foreseeable future? It is conceivable in a few places, such as New Zealand and Norway. But suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.

There is certainly a role for renewables; just not an overwhelmingly dominant one.

PamW

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
26. Renewables up, nuclear down, carbon dioxide concentrations rising at the highest rate ever!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:36 AM
Dec 2013

I can think of no other statement that shows that the expensive and economically failing so called renewable energy industry is an environmental disaster caused by the dogmatic application of fear and ignorance.

Here's the real result of the masses rushing into this dangerous, and frankly deadly fantasy:

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

I note with due contempt for those who have caused this disaster that records are being set on a planetary scale for the consumption of oil, gas and coal. The millions of people who will die this year from air pollution may add to the list of people to thank the purveyors of the "renewables will save us" fantasy.

Talk about a pyrrhic victory!

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
36. It's the rant by Nnads that makes his use of an SUV & a heavy duty pickup relevant.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:49 AM
Dec 2013

I have a 13yo 6cyl PU that gets driven about 800 miles a year.
We also have a Prius delivering 50mpg that is used for most driving.

We expect to keep both vehicles until they die (maybe 20 years?) - which significantly reduces their footprint since the significant manufacturing emissions are spread over far more use.


NNadir

(33,509 posts)
48. Really? I have a pick up and a SUV?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:26 PM
Dec 2013

I'm very surprised to learn that; I didn't know, and you would think I would know that, I would think that I'd be aware of it, since, um, I'm, um, me.

You really are fond of discussing things you know nothing about.

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
42. Sorry, but I'm not a car salesman.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:56 PM
Dec 2013

I have always opposed the car CULTure, as I know no amount of bandaids and fantasies can make it sustainable.

You by contrast, are in a different space:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112758407

Only a true car CULTist, oblivious to the environmental impact of the car CULTure - distributed energy writ large - could possibly have written such a clueless post.

Iterate

(3,020 posts)
46. I think everyone missed the point of that product sale
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:33 PM
Dec 2013

Before you start foaming at the mouth, you'll find no one more anti-car here than I am. But a dogmatic approach keeps people from a more complete understanding. I'd rather not.

1st. German car companies introduce new tech at the top, and if it proves itself (as this seems the case with this model so far), they move the proven tech downmarket. Other makers have aimed at other market segments and have other development strategies.

2nd. Only a couple of years ago some people on E&E were saying that the German companies would never introduce electric models because they were too tied to high-efficiency diesel. I disagreed. I was right. In many ways, the EU is better suited for electric cars than the US.

3. The price. You suggested the price made it suitable only for billionaires, but that obviously wasn't the case. It might be upper-middle class, but it's precisely those people who are kicking out the most carbon per person. And there's another market segment in play there who have a "buy quality, buy it once, and keep it forever" ethic, an ethic I think is going to universally needed.

4. Just because I hate cars, will never own another, and will travel only by foot, tram, or train, doesn't mean that every improvement to the auto has to be dissed by me. The success of this model was a good thing.

5. If the entire US electricity sector was de-carbonized overnight, the US would still rank as a top CO2 emitter per capita. The US could cut it's CO2 by 30% just by switching to mass transit for commutes. On those two points, I assume we agree. Given that so much of the US infrastructure was designed by car dealers and real-estate developers, the only short-term alternative is the electric car. I may not personally like it, but that doesn't matter.

In your hidden post you stated the Germany electricity was 0.26527 Euros/kwh, as if that would be a bad thing. But that's not true. The electricity is about 0.15 Euros/kwh. The rest is in taxes levied on residential use. Now that you know that, I know you'll never make that mistake again.

And since you don't like cars, I assume you would be in favor of an immediate reduction in speed to 55mph. About 3% of US CO2 would be saved overnight. Plus, raising gas prices at least to EU levels, about $8 or $9 per gallon. Gee, common ground.

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
47. I'm preternaturally uninterested in car CULTure stuff. I'm far more interested in the state...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:05 PM
Dec 2013

...of the 2 billion people on the planet who have no access to decent sanitation than I am in what the upper middle class can afford.

In general, I'm not interested in provincials or what they care about.

I couldn't care less about your successful prediction about German electric car manufacture. I don't regard the external costs of electric cars to be any better than the external costs of gasoline cars, a point that has been made in the primary scientific literature by considering the Chinese case, China supporting the largest number of electric vehicles in the world, something like 100 million of them, most happily being scooters. The following link is to a 2012 paper in the journal Environmental Science and Technology, a publication of the American Chemical Society.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es202347q

The authors find that while electric scooters are superior to all kinds of cars, the electric car in China actually causes more air pollution deaths than gasoline cars, because of the Chinese use of the exact same technology that Germany is in the process of expanding: Coal based electricity.

As for your bullshit response on German electricity rates, I did something that is seldom done here by bourgeois brats when offering the number, specifically the EU Energy Portal, linked here:

http://www.energy.eu/

Apparently this site has now become proprietary, but a copy of the sheet is reproduced here elsewhere on the internet.

http://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/comparison-of-eu-electricity-prices/

This is exactly the data I used.

If you would like to assert that German electricity prices are cheap, be my guest at correcting the EU Portal. I couldn't care less. It is, I note, German taxes that are supporting the expensive, failed, and essentially useless "renewable energy" fantasy that has had the result of accelerating the degradation of the planetary atmosphere to unprecedented levels. The degradation of the atmosphere will probably have little effect on anyone who can afford a German electric car. They'll be able to buy their way out of the consequences, as usual. The people who will suffer first and most will be those same people, referenced at the outset of this post, the two billion who have never operated a flush toilet.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
49. My simple electric car maxim...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:47 PM
Dec 2013

NNadir states
The authors find that while electric scooters are superior to all kinds of cars, the electric car in China actually causes more air pollution deaths than gasoline cars, because of the Chinese use of the exact same technology that Germany is in the process of expanding: Coal based electricity.

NNadir,

My simple little maxim for this goes: An electric car is NO CLEANER than the power plant used to charge the batteries.

Simple and TRUE!!

However, I can't count the number of times that I've run across pro-electric car proponents that "think" that no matter how the batteries are charged, electric cars are clean.

Somehow to them, the use of the electric car ABSOLVES all the previous sins of how the electricity was generated in the first place.

PamW

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
52. Good points. Most places in the world, with the obvious exception of France...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 10:13 AM
Dec 2013

...electricity is pretty dirty, as coal and gas still dominate production almost everywhere else.

Electric cars have other externalities however that should not be ignored.

I touched on these on another website where I sometimes write:

http://theenergycollective.com/nnadir/221226/green-electric-car-actually-green-external-cost-lithium-batteries

To my mind the largest externality is the same as the one that applies to the failed expensive wind industry: Lanthanide mining.

The ironic thing is that lanthanide mine tailings are radioactive, and will remain so pretty much forever unless the thorium in them is removed, converted to U-233 and fissioned.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
55. and northern Illinois; the Commonwealth Edison service area.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Dec 2013

NNadir states
Most places in the world, with the obvious exception of France.....electricity is pretty dirty, as coal and gas still dominate production almost everywhere else.

In addition to France, the other place where electric cars are truly clean is in northern Illinois; the Commonwealth Edison service area.

The electricity distributed by Commonwealth Edison is generated by Commonwealth Edison's parent company, Exelon; and a fleet of nearly a dozen nuclear power reactors in northern Illinois:

Braidwood I / Braidwood II

Byron I / Byron II

Clinton

Dresden II / Dresden III

LaSalle I / LaSalle II

Quad Cities I / Quad Cities II

With the above fleet of reactors, the percentage of electricity derived from nuclear power in northern Illinois is on a par with France.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
56. Good Point!!
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:41 AM
Dec 2013

NNadir states
o my mind the largest externality is the same as the one that applies to the failed expensive wind industry: Lanthanide mining.

The ironic thing is that lanthanide mine tailings are radioactive, and will remain so pretty much forever unless the thorium in them is removed, converted to U-233 and fissioned.

It is rather HYPOCRITICAL in the EXTREME for those that complain about even the smallest and benign amounts of radioactivity due to the use of nuclear power, which CONTAINS and SEQUESTERS it from the environment. However, they shamelessly promote their favorite technology when its UNCONTAINED tailings are set free into the environment.

HYPOCRISY ABOUNDS!!

PamW

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
58. Actually, the radioactivity associated with lanthanide mine tailings from wind turbines, hybrid...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 01:33 PM
Dec 2013

...and electric cars is relatively trivial when compared to other externalities.

Most of these lanthanides are mined in the China. A report on the environmental impact of this business - primarily chemistry related risks - can be found here: http://www.miningwatch.ca/sites/www.miningwatch.ca/files/epa_ree_report_dec_2012.pdf

China’s high REE production, combined with limited environmental regulations, has resulted in significant environmental damage to the areas surrounding mining and processing operations. Operations range from large government-operated mines and processing facilities to small illegal endeavors. Often, smaller operations have little or no environmental controls, and larger operations have only recently begun adopting such measures. For example, after 40 years of operation, the Bayan-Obo mine has an 11-km2 tailings impoundment that has radioactively contaminated the soil, groundwater, and vegetation of the surrounding area (Oko-Institute e.V., 2011). As reported by Hurst (2010), The Chinese Society of Rare Earths stated that every ton of rare earth produced generates approximately 8.5 kg of fluorine and 13 kg of dust. Also, they reported the use of concentrated sulfuric acid during high-temperature calcinations produces 9,600 to 12,000 m3 of waste gas containing dust concentrate, hydrofluoric acid, and sulfur dioxide, and approximately 75 m3 of acidic wastewater, as well as 1 ton of radioactive waste residue (Hurst, 2010). Additionally, the REE separation and refining process known as saponification had been used extensively in China until recently, generating harmful wastewater. It was estimated that, in 2005, the process generated 20,000 to 25,000 tons of wastewater, with total ammonia nitrogen concentrations ranging between 300 mg/L and 5,000 mg/L (Oko-Institut e.V., 2011).


Predictably our bourgeois "renewables will save us" types couldn't care less about this situation which is involved to a very high degree in their wind and electric hybrid car fantasies that have involved almost no progress whatsoever, no meaningful progress, against climate change.

It's pretty typical of their obliviousness and their selective attention, which is entirely self-serving.

It's telling that they want to tell us all about their Priuses.

Iterate

(3,020 posts)
50. Actually you missed the embedded point,
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:17 PM
Dec 2013

which was that understanding other peoples' point of view and how their world works is key to understanding energy dynamics, and especially key in making political alliances and getting good candidates, which I would assume to be of importance on a political website.

But you don't care, and that's fine with me, but it leaves me wondering what you're doing. Trying to convince people into being nuclear supporters? So what? Do you give out t-shirts for that? Are they going to build one? Or elect someone who can't build one? Or maybe elect someone who will go easy on the ones already built.

Your concern for the two billion brings a tear to my eye, but I don't see how generic concern can possibly be converted into action with out understanding them, asking them, working with them -exactly the behavior you've dismissed. I've never known the nuclear industry to be active in that field, but by all means, share. I'm here to learn.

Sorry, but I found your link to be less than detailed. If you want, I can get a .01 breakdown the tax structure, with the largest segment being the 19% VAT. I thought I was being clear in talking about the generation/distribution price of the electricity itself vs the residential billing price.

The cost of production is .081, and the legally permitted profit, admin, and advertising is .059 for a subtotal of .14 euro. Add .114 in taxes = .253euro. The eurostat data is from 2011, so it might have gone up a cent or two. It has not damaged the economy. But if you know anyone who would be interested, there's a shortage of skilled labor. It's union labor, and well paid.


http://tinyurl.com/olzffup

618g CO2/kWh US avg 2007 (the US needs better data), Germany 443 CO2/kWh avg 2011, but I know it can range to 525 CO2/kWh depending on the date and state.
http://www.miloslick.com/EnergyLogger_files/State_Electricity_and_Emissions_Rates.pdf
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot380.nsf/veritydisplay/6ab4390d79abfd11c1257be800540e7c/$file/Germany.pdf

Oh my, by that measure the US has some catching up to do. And, damn, the US consumption is double too -so on an end-use, per-person basis that's over twice the carbon per person for electricity. I don't think you should be mentioning Germany.

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
51. Oh please...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 08:21 AM
Dec 2013

The "non-recoverable" taxes include the cost of the feed in tariffs - from which German industry is exempt, the cost being dumped on household consumption.

If you would like to assert that there has been feed in tariffs for the failed, expensive, and useless renewable energy industry that leads to electricity prices from those sources, I suggest you take up something called "reading."

These figures give the costs of feed in tariffs, numbers which belie your very questionable evasion.

http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?page_id=14068

Note that Poland's electricity prices of production is 0.057 cents in your data sheet. Poland burns Silesian coal almost exclusively, although there is a proposal in that country to go nuclear, so they can export cleaner electricity to the climate pigs in Germany.

The Germans themselves are now importing - and plan to raise their importing of - Polish coal as well as American and South African coal. Coal seems cheap only because the coal industry is permitted to dump its toxic waste on humanity for free (much like the solar industry is).

The German carbon dioxide emissions for electricity are rising, not falling. Every serious person on the planet knows as much: The reason is that they plan to phase out the form of energy that has been their largest source of climate change gas for a large portion of the last 50 years, nuclear energy.

A defense lawyer who is representing a guilty client is a good lawyer if he misleads the jury. Germany has lots of defense lawyers, who quibble and carry on. The fact is that Germany has the second highest electricity prices in Europe, and even if rich industrialists don't give a shit, the 20% of Germans who constitute the "poverty level" in Germany - the people who you characteristically denied the existence of - are the people who can least afford it.

Excuse the quick google, as I don't have much time for this shit, but:

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/10/26/331412/about-one-in-six-germans-at-poverty-risk/

Germany is rapidly becoming another coal burning shit hole, but happily for the Germans, they can handle shit because even the wonderfully non-existent poor people there can afford toilets, unlike the two billion people living elsewhere who have never operated a toilet or have never been able to afford a $137,500 electric BMW i8 electric car.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
57. Out of the frying pan...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:49 AM
Dec 2013

NNadir writes
Germany is rapidly becoming another coal burning shit hole,

Coal burning shit hole is right!!

All because of what they "think" a nuclear power plant MIGHT do, and release some radioactivity.

In terms of radioactivity; look at what coal plants NORMALLY do ( courtesy of scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory ):

http://web.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

The fact that coal-fired power plants throughout the world are the major sources of radioactive materials released to the environment has several implications. It suggests that coal combustion is more hazardous to health than nuclear power and that it adds to the background radiation burden even more than does nuclear power.

"Out of the frying pan and into the FIRE" is Germany's course of action.

The good thing about science is that it is true; whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

Iterate

(3,020 posts)
59. I though you liked numbers?
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 07:42 PM
Dec 2013

http://www.kwh-preis.de/strom/strompreise

The amount over and the generation and grid costs does not go into the FiT.

It's nice that you link to the germanenergyblog.de, but the page you linked to was for TiF payouts, not residential billing. The TiF payouts are based on a 5-10% return. It's also based on the idea that the homeowner/producer should get the same breaks the Big4 utilities get.

This is how it breaks down for residential customers:

Production/purchase/ or generation +€0.082 (Varies by district)
Netznutzung: Grid cost and distribution. You'll be happy to know it's underground. +€0,0574
Metering, billing: +€0.086

That's the base price of the electricity. Now the taxes.

Stromsteuer: An electricity tax designed to reduce consumption and reduce a utilities ability to manipulate the market. + €0.021
Introduced in 1999, most of this revenue goes to fund state pensions.

Konzessionsabgabe: Concession charges paid to local municipalities: +€0.017 (to €0.0239)
Local property taxes are nil, but there's a tax any business operating in the town. It's a theory of taxation that goes back centuries.

KWK offshore: This was formerly a CHP cogeneration surcharge(with a 25% CHP goal), now temporarily re-purposed: +€0.04

Umsatzsteuer (VAT): +€0.046
A source of general revenue channeled to social and local services.

EEg: Renewable Energy sources act. I assume this is what has you wound up. +€0.03592


The 2013 EEG Surcharge was €0.03592 /kWh, and based on normal usage would be about €15/month for a family of three. For a single person living alone that's about €5-6,00 /month -about the price of a train ticket to work for one day. The EEg is nearly at its price peak, will stay there for a few years, then decline.

You specifically mentioned the FiT, as if that was the whole price above the base amount and suggesting that was all of the EEg. But the EEg fund surcharge covers hundreds,maybe thousands of programs, from light bulbs to insulation to big projects. It varies over time, but 70% of the EEg for the FiT is a good average. That means, at its peak, for a few years, the FiT portion for a family of three is about €10, less than a movie ticket.


That's €0.025144 /kWh. So you're having a stroke over a 2-1/2 cents per kWh charge that a democratic people have intentionally imposed on themselves. I assume you don't think an energy transition is free?


The following does not include missionaries or soldiers and their efforts to aid the 2 billion. Otherwise the US would fare better. I was going to be the top 20 givers of foreign aid, but it had to be 21 instead. Foreign aid per $GDP, by nation:


Statistic VerificationSource: OECD, The World Bank, Development Assistance Committee
Date Verified: 3.15.2012
http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-that-give-the-most-in-foreign-aid-statistics/

Oh my, 0.19 % is half of 0.38 %. If you prefer, here's ODA/GNI. At least by this measure, the US is better than Italy.


http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-poverty/statistics-on-international-development-aid/

And PressTV, really? "plunging into relative poverty"? I guess that what get for taking in immigrants. You should be so unlucky. And here I thought you liked numbers.

The GINI index CIA data 2009:

Iran 44.5(2006) that's horrible; EU average: 26.0; Germany 27.0; France 32.7, Czech Republic 31.0; UK 40.0, that takes down the average; USA 45.0 (2007).
Lower is better, BTW. So who's slightly worse than 45.0? Bulgaria, Mozambique. I assume the USA number is the only one you can do anything about.

I'm not surprised you use vile insults to attack one of the most democratic, most progressive people. I am surprised you get away it on a democratic and progressive website.

Don't go away now, coal is next. You're not going to like it though. It's reads about like the GINI index.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
28. The great majority of people who will die this year from air pollution
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
Dec 2013

is not only because of our coal burning power plants or our automobiles rather it is mostly because of poor design or lack of inside heating and cooking apparatuses in third world countries. If you are so concerned about these deaths you need to get off your ass and do something about that. Not rant and rave as you do against anything thats not nuclear powered. Nuclear energy to produce electricity is on its way out and you might as well get used to that fact. Chernobyl brought the dangers into the light and Fukishima is going to finish it off. Bet on it.

Just how much do you get paid to come here and spout your shit anyway???

You lie

PamW

(1,825 posts)
34. Pot meat kettle...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:37 AM
Dec 2013

madokie states
Nuclear energy to produce electricity is on its way out and you might as well get used to that fact.

That opinion ( not "fact". One has to know the difference ) is NOT shared by the majority of leading SCIENTISTS.

As Dr. Hansen and his colleagues stated in their open letter recently:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires. While it may be theoretically possible to stabilize the climate without nuclear power, in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

Do you really want to solve the coming climate crisis problem; then that means supporting what the scientists say is the solution. ( Unless you have a better understanding of the climate and energy production science, than do the scientists ).

Or you can wallow in "greenie wet dreams" that can't make a difference and won't come true anyway.

The choice is up to you.

PamW

madokie

(51,076 posts)
35. What ever you think pamw
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:45 AM
Dec 2013


Question for you. Is that caps lock key on automatic or do you actually have to press it?

Oh yea, you're about to wear that one link out don't you think

NNadir

(33,509 posts)
43. You are obviously unfamiliar with the epidemiology and the science of air pollution.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:01 PM
Dec 2013

According to the Global Burden of Diseases (1990-2010) published in the scientific/medical journal Lancet, more than 6 million people have been dying on average each year from air pollution, about half from dangerous fossil fuel waste, and half from burning so called "renewable" biomass.

What I hear here from people who hate science because they don't know any, the only energy deaths that matter are precisely those that actually haven't occurred, deaths from Fukushima.

What I expect from moral cripples of this type is what I get, giggling at a tragedy.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
54. +1
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:17 AM
Dec 2013

NNadir states
What I expect from moral cripples of this type is what I get, giggling at a tragedy.

AMEN to that!!

Laughing and giggling egged on by self-righteousness and a delusion of superior intellect and self-worth; is DISGUSTING in the EXTREME.

PamW

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