Toyota Unveils Zero-Emissions Hydrogen Fuel-Cell ‘Car Of The Future’ For Sale Next Year

[jakeXT]

Toyota announced the launch of a hydrogen-powered fuel-cell car in the U.S. next year on Monday at the annual Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas. The car, which resembles the popular Corolla, is yet to be named, but like the birth of a royal child it’s the pedigree that counts — and Toyota is the largest auto manufacturer in the world. However, unlike a royal child, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles have been fighting an uphill battle against logistical, technological and economic odds since their inception.

“For years, the use of hydrogen gas to power an electric vehicle has been seen by many smart people as a foolish quest,” Bob Carter, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor Sales, said at the CES event. “Yes, there are significant challenges. The first is building the vehicle at a reasonable price for many people. The second is doing what we can to help kick-start the construction of convenient hydrogen refueling infrastructure. We’re doing a good job with both and we will launch in 2015.”

...

Hydrogen-powered fuel-cell vehicles run on hydrogen gas, making them similar to battery-only models such as the Nissan Leaf that plug-in to recharge in that they emit none of the tailpipe pollution association with burning gasoline. The only exhaust on the Toyota fuel-cell vehicle will be water vapor.

“Battery models carry electricity in their lithium-ion battery packs while fuel-cell vehicles make electricity on board in a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen,” Bloomberg Businessweek reported. “While hydrogen vehicles have a range comparable to gasoline vehicles and need only a few minutes to refuel — compared with hours for most battery autos — there are few hydrogen pumps currently open to the public.”

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/01/07/3126921/toyota-unveils-hydrogen-powered-fuel-cell-car/

[global1]

1. So Is G.W.Bush Going To Be Proved Right.....

Didn't he push in his SOTU Address in 2003 for hydrogen powered cars? Didn't he get shot down and made to look silly for supporting that?

Will President Obama be criticized for not supporting hydrogen powered cars?

Just wondering?

I'm not a fan - AT ALL - of Dubya - but - I'm sure if this Toyota Hydrogen Car turns out to be successful in the near future - 5 or so plus years - he'll be hailed by his fellow Repugs as a sage.

[kristopher]

4. Sales of plug in hybrid and battery electric drive autos are ramping up rapidly.

And their costs are dropping as more and more models hit the dealer's lots.

This looks like an attempt to slide in before the door closes completely on H2 for personal autos.

The reason most energy experts don't support fuel cells as strongly as battery electric is that the well to wheels efficiency of proposed systems would require about 60% more new low carbon generating infrastructure than batteries would to deliver the same amount of miles driven. That, of course, means a lot more money would be required to decarbonize the personal transportation sector.

There are other issues, but that's the primary objection.

[BlueStreak]

2. Just to be clear, this is only "zero emissions" if the hydrogen is produced

from excess energy that would otherwise be lost from solar and wind farms.

This Toyota announcement is fantastic news, because it means that a solid group of companies, including the leading car company, have found a path to make fuel cells economical. This is everything that electric cars never could be. Basically: fast refuel time and 300 mile range. The fueling infrastructure is a problem today, but that is equally true of EVs. If they have really mastered the price point, this will for a critical mass of hydrogen infrastructure.

One of the problems with wind and solar power is that when they generate power, it is really cheap (practically free from a variable cost standpoint), but the power is not dependable. Therefore, you need one or the following: a) a super-scale storage system that doesn't really exist today, b) excess capacity that you are willing to just throw away (i.e. idling turbines when there isn't enough demand for electricity, or c) political arrangements where oil/gas power plants are willing to go radically up and down to accommodate the fluctuations of solar/wind.

None of those three is an attractive solution today. But installing surplus wind/solar capacity is, if you also build out the technology to use the excess energy to create hydrogen and store it for vehicle use.

It seems to me this is the future. We won't be there in 2015 or even 2020. But countries like Germany and Spain are already pretty far down that path, and the emergence of fuel cells just adds to that momentum.

I think this is really exciting. I didn't really expect to see consumer sales of FCVs until 2020 or later.

[caraher]

19. Economical?

Well, it's economical the way Tesla's electric cars are - the article speculates that the price will be in the $50-100k range. So that at least gets to the right order of magnitude, but still pretty pricey by current automotive standards.

[BlueStreak]

20. They wouldn't be doing this if the pricing didn't work with volume

This is not a gimmick to meet some arcane California law, as has been done in the past with some of the EV projects. Several car companies have made really big-time investments in fuel cell technology. Toyota is bringing this to market 2 years sooner than previously announced. Why?

I believe that indicates:

a) They really do believe this is an important development that wil grow into a substantial portion of the car production; and

b) therefore, they didn't want to fall 2 years behind Honda and Hyundai.

The projections in the article of 2030 are way off. The reason the dates have always been iffy is because the fuel cells were way off the mark economically. I have dealt with Toyota as a fleet buyer for a long time. They are always vague about everything. Toyota is uncharacteristically frank and direct this time. They are saying flat out that they have the economics solved on the fuel cell. Yes, they will charge an "early adopter's premium" for the first several years. Why shouldn't they? They have lots of R&D costs and they would like to recoup as much of that as possible. But they wouldn't have announced it this way if they weren't sure about the economics.

They don't have to get it down to the typical Camry range until there is enough hydrogen infrastructure to make that relevant, so they might be planning another 4 or 5 years to reach that point. They often talk about their product ambitions in terns of 2020. That's about right for a mainstream push.

I bet we will see an affordable, honest 300 mile range fuel cell car on the market before we see an affordable, honest 300 mile EV (meaning under $50,000 in today's dollars).

[longship]

3. Well, it takes energy to make Hydrogen.

(Just like it takes energy to make any fuel.)

But there are no sources of gaseous hydrogen on Earth. Presumably it will be made from hydrolysis, splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. There are other possible sources, but hydrolysis is probably the easiest. The energy gained from burning the hydrogen, or powering a fuel cell (which basically merely reverses the hydrolysis) has to be less than the energy used to separate the hydrogen in the first place. It's those cursed laws of thermodynamics again. Entropy is a bitch.

So, is it more ecological to run the car on electricity, storing it in a battery, than making hydrogen with that same power and then using that to generate the power in the car?

I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd bet that it's the battery storage that wins out, and I don't think the contest would be close. There is already an electrical power grid all over the planet. We don't yet have a hydrogen infrastructure. That cost has to be factored in if hydrogen fuel cells are to practical.

The main drawback of batteries is how far they can power the car, and how fast they can be recharged. So, I can see an argument for fuel cell automobiles at least until battery tech can catch up. (If that is possible.)

Interesting article.

On edit: I admit Hydrogen for vehicles would be a good thing from excess clean power from solar, wind, etc.

[CRH]

8. Entropy is a bitch, ...

I investigated this very issue a decade ago, and came to the same conclusion, without a solution; entropy is a bitch.

Maybe technology has progressed since, but if not and the laws of thermodynamics still create reality; then entropy is still a bitch.

[longship]

9. Hydrogen could be very useful as an energy storage medium.

If you have extra energy that you just dump if it's not used why not use it to make hydrogen? Then, use the hydrogen to generate power during times when not enough energy is being produced.

Who cares if it is thermodynamically wasteful when the alternative is to dump the energy?

But, yup. Entropy is a bitch.

And hydrogen is not an energy source for that reason. But it is clean and can be used for storing energy.

Thanks for your response.
Regards.

[CRH]

11. Yes, it should be thought of as a battery, ...

not an energy source. And, as with any battery it is thermodynamically wasteful but maybe the best alternative.

[jakeXT]

12. Still, a long way to go

[CRH]

13. Yes a long way to go indeed, ...

The concept of compaction or compression of gas, whether it be into a solid or gas, leads to the inevitable what if scenario. What if the state, changes? Through heat or pressure, what if, what was compressed or compacted finds the conditions to return to its natural state? In the case of hydrogen we are not talking a chain reaction atomic explosion, but dare I say, several times the force of the ignition of equal hydrocarbon calories. Would a person be safe walking the sidewalks near an accident?

But then again, a nine minute video possibly is not a fair hearing.

[BlueStreak]

14. That "hydrogen sponge" concept is very interesting

This is an improvement on compressing hydrogen -- allowing the compression to take less energy (lower pressure and higher temp). That is all basically physical.

Another completely different avenue is chemical -- storing hydrogen as hydrides. This conceivably could allow hydrogen to be stored in a solid state without the complications of pressure and cryogenics. They aren't space-efficient or weight-efficient enough now, but not that far off.

[kristopher]

15. Its relative inefficiency is very important.

You posit that the alternative is to dump the energy; but that isn't realistic. If you are going to go to the expense of storing the energy, then you want to maximize the efficiency of the process. Alternative uses for spilled energy from variable sources are only beginning to be developed, but the list of applications that aren't time sensitive is pretty long. For example, space heating and cooling account for about half of home energy use and there are a variety of technologies that can store energy for those purposes with much higher round trip efficiencies than H2. Battery electric vehicles with or without V2G are also a big part of the picture since they provide much higher RT efficiency also.

[longship]

16. Of course, the scenario is much more complex.

Nobody is suggesting that the energy be dumped. But solar and wind power are both transient, not subject to demand, but to availability. And neither the sun nor the wind operate on human demand.

So storage of energy is pretty damned important.

As always, you bring good perspective.

[kristopher]

17. Have you heard of P2G?

Articles ordered by time 6/2013 - 12/2013

http://energystoragejournal.com/wind-instrument-power-to-gas-technology/

http://www.renewablesinternational.net/worlds-largest-p2g-facility-ramps-up/150/537/68394/

http://www.eon.com/en/media/news/press-releases/2013/8/28/eon-inaugurates-power-to-gas-unit-in-falkenhagen-in-eastern-germany.html

http://energytransition.de/2013/12/p2g-gets-going/

[longship]

18. Precisely the tech advancements which will bring this home.

Thanks, kristopher. Bookmarked and will read in detail.

Regards.

[mindwalker_i]

5. So cars are going from releasing carbon monoxide to

releasing dihydrogen monoxide.

oh shit!

[jakeXT]

6. In those temperatures ....

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:38 PM - Edit history (1)

[CRH]

10. Could be slick, when the Rossby waves get stalled. … n/t

[kristopher]

7. I caught my wife just before she took a drink from a bottle that has some of that in it.

I've been careful to very clearly label the containers for it ever since.

Talk about a close call.

[hunter]

21. If the hydrogen thing doesn't work out...

... it ought to be easy to swap the fuel cell and hydrogen tank out for more battery packs.

The issue I have with this car is that a hydrogen fuel cell is just an inefficient and awkward "quick charge" battery, and yet another gift to the natural gas industry.

Natural gas is not a clean fuel, especially when it is obtained by fracking.

[tinrobot]

22. ...and how many hydrogen filling stations are there?

Just checking.

[quadrature]

23. how much platinum is needed per car?...nt