HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Environment & Energy » Environment & Energy (Group) » Siemens plans electrolyze...

Fri May 16, 2014, 05:45 PM

Siemens plans electrolyzer system to store wind power as hydrogen.

Siemens plans electrolyzer system to store wind power as hydrogen.
05/16/2014 By Editors of Electric Light & Power/ POWERGRID International



In the German city of Mainz, Siemens, together with the public utilities of Mainz, Linde and the RheinMain University of Applied Sciences, has laid the foundation stone for a new type of energy storage system.

From spring 2015, the system, equipped with an electrolyzer from Siemens, will convert surplus electricity from wind farms to hydrogen. The hydrogen will then be stored locally in tankers or fed directly into the natural gas grid for subsequent power or heat generation.



In this way, it will be possible to store electricity from renewable sources over longer periods of time. The tankers will also be able to supply the growing network of hydrogen filling stations for emission-free fuel-cell vehicles....

Full Article: http://www.elp.com/articles/2014/05/siemens-plans-electrolyzer-system-to-store-wind-power-as-hydrogen.html

20 replies, 2701 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 20 replies Author Time Post
Reply Siemens plans electrolyzer system to store wind power as hydrogen. (Original post)
nationalize the fed May 2014 OP
quadrature May 2014 #1
FogerRox May 2014 #2
jpak May 2014 #3
FogerRox May 2014 #6
nationalize the fed May 2014 #4
FogerRox May 2014 #5
nationalize the fed May 2014 #7
FogerRox May 2014 #12
LouisvilleDem May 2014 #8
FogerRox May 2014 #9
jmowreader Jun 2014 #19
FogerRox May 2014 #10
hunter May 2014 #11
FogerRox May 2014 #13
nationalize the fed May 2014 #14
hunter Jun 2014 #15
nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #17
FogerRox Jun 2014 #16
nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #18
FogerRox Jun 2014 #20

Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Sat May 17, 2014, 10:44 PM

1. horses can be turned into glue

 

wine grapes can be turned into ethanol

typical German thinking

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 02:32 PM

2. I like it. Except that Hydrogen doesnt store very well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #2)

Mon May 19, 2014, 03:55 PM

3. It stores well enough for this

yup

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jpak (Reply #3)

Wed May 21, 2014, 05:08 PM

6. Hydrogen will leak out, its atoms are smaller than any other substance

So it needs to be used very soon after production.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #2)

Mon May 19, 2014, 04:19 PM

4. Toyota, Hyundai, GM and Honda have figured out

how to store it in cars.



Toyota fires bullets into hydrogen fuel tanks

With some industry members and analysts questioning both the viability and durability of hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles, Toyota executive Bob Carter, speaking at the Automotive News World Congress this week, says the Japanese automaker went all Clint Eastwood on the fuel tanks of a fuel-cell prototype. Carter says that bullets from a small-caliber gun bounced off the carbon-fiber tanks, and that .50-caliber bullets barely made dents...

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/16/toyota-fires-bullets-hydrogen-fuel-tanks-shoots-ev-supporter/


Mike Strizki stores hydrogen he made from solar panels -in New Jersey no less-in propane tanks: Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever (from 2008) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/



2013 update:


Other ways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #4)

Wed May 21, 2014, 05:06 PM

5. Hydrogen atoms are smaller than any substance used as a tank.

IT will leak out. The real solution is "just in time production".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #5)

Wed May 21, 2014, 05:23 PM

7. Strange that it doesn't seem to have leaked out of Honda's

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle that has been driving around since 1999
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX

Or GM's Equinox Hydrogen Test vehicles

GMs Equinox hydrogen fuel-cell test fleet logs 3 million miles on U.S. roads
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/gm-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-log-3-million-miles-in-testing/

Watch Top Gear review the Honda Fuel Cell Clarity
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to FogerRox (Reply #5)

Thu May 22, 2014, 07:34 AM

8. That doesn't seem right

You seem to be saying that you can't make a tank out of something that has 'larger' atoms than what it is trying to contain. If that were true, then you couldn't contain Oxygen, which has an atomic weight of 8, using a tank made out of Iron, which has an atomic weight of 26. I'm pretty sure that is not true...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LouisvilleDem (Reply #8)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:39 PM

9. "gaseous hydrogen will leak through most materials over time."

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Mcq_66CV4kC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=gaseous+hydrogen+will+leak+from+tanks&source=bl&ots=A5qjUHS4g6&sig=jYKjkMTS4h33CSQjoRkJ4xKyU6M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GI2GU7bAJKmksQSU5oHoAw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gaseous%20hydrogen%20will%20leak%20from%20tanks&f=false


Molecular hydrogen leaks slowly from most containment vessels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

H has a molecular weight of 2.016

O is 3.25 times less than Iron, H is nearly 13 times less than Fe. H will fit in between FE molecules, O wont.

This is easily googelable, I'm not sure why it needs to be documented.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 05:07 PM

19. The size of the atoms isn't the big problem

Hydrogen embrittles metals and degrades rubber seals.

The other problem: the only way to do serious bulk storage of hydrogen is to liquify it. That carries its own problems. (I was following a truck loaded with liquid H2 one fine day...there was a sign on the back of the truck "venting of gas from the top of this truck is normal."

If they were to stick me with the task of storing wind energy chemically, I'd find the closest factory to my wind farm and buy its CO2 emissions. I would then install a recovery unit in their smokestacks and pipe the CO2 to my facility...where the hydrogen created from wind-driven electrolysis will go to make methane - which CAN be dumped into the national natural gas network. If you really want hydrogen you can pipe the methane to the point of use and steam-reform it there. (And of course if you build your pipe network with a series of return pipes, you can ship the CO and CO2 created by the reformation reaction back to me and I'll just put it right back in the process.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:41 AM

11. Adding hydrogen to gas in America's aging pipeline infrastructure...

... is almost as good as throwing away.

You could, however, use the hydrogen to turn Carbon Dioxide into Methane, something the gas pipelines were designed to carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hunter (Reply #11)

Sat May 31, 2014, 07:19 PM

13. No one is seriously proposing to pipe hydrogen thru any pipelines

Molecular hydrogen leaks thru most containment, it must be used quickly, so the key to making this work is too produce the hydrogen at filling stations.

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/fct_h2_storage.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #13)

Sat May 31, 2014, 08:51 PM

14. New hydrogen pipelines are being built as you read this

Why are so many people pretending to know so much about that which they clearly know nothing about?



Project Overview
Its the kind of massive project only a global leader would undertake.
Anticipating that hydrogen needs along the Gulf Coast of North America will increase in the years ahead, Air Products expanded its hydrogen supply network.

By building a 180-mile (290-km) pipeline that connects our existing Texas and Louisiana systems, weve united 22 hydrogen plants and 600 miles (965 km) of pipeline, with a total capacity of over one billion SCFD (1.3 million Nm3/hr).

So if an event disrupts operations on one side of the Gulf, hydrogen can keep flowing from the other, giving our refinery and petrochemical customers the reliable, uninterrupted supply they need. With this record-breaking network, Air Products continues to break new ground in hydrogen supply.
http://www.airproducts.com/microsite/h2-pipeline/index.asp?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=h2pipeline?utm_source=&utm_medium=NR&utm_campaign=fy13-News-Release


I've never seen anything like this before. It's astounding.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:54 AM

15. Hydrogen pipelines built for the oil industry.

Hydrogen is useful stuff for turning tar into gasoline and diesel fuel.

But it's not something you can simply dump into the U.S.A.'s often decrepit, methane/ethane/other_crap gas network.

The U.S.A. is more like Russia than Germany in that respect.

I hate personal automobiles anyways. I don't care how they are powered.

In a rational society people walk, pedal, sail, or ride electric rails.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hunter (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 04:49 PM

17. But FogerRox said "No one is seriously proposing to pipe hydrogen

thru any pipelines"

That is just simply false. And these pipelines can service hydrogen stations just as easily as they can service the oil industry.

I really don't get your entire philosophy anyway, you seem hell bent on bashing a clean, renewable, cheap way to get off of oil but here is what you have stated regarding nuclear power (you didn't answer before but search works)

I'm now in a place where I am adamantly against fossil fuels, automobiles, and our consumer society. I'm essentially indifferent to nuclear power.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4942378


And this is after the recent lesson of Fukushima. Incredible.

Well there's no need for fission to boil water anymore with decentralized Hydrogen. The next few years will make that as clear as a bell.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 03:14 PM

16. Hunter & I were not refering to new hydrogen pipelines..

And yes, the hydrogen is produced to meet demand, note there is little storage capacity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FogerRox (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 04:53 PM

18. You said:No one is seriously proposing to pipe hydrogen thru any pipelines

You were wrong. It's just that simple.

And you keep talking about not being able to store hydrogen but Honda's fuel cell vehicle has been on the road since 1999 and if there had been any problems the anti hydrogen people would have made them well known.

GM's fleet of hydrogen test vehicles has been operating for 7 years and there have been no reported problems.

You really think Hyundai, Honda and Toyota would introduce hydrogen vehicles with tanks that lose their gas ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 07:53 PM

20. DO you want to pick a pie fight or can you stick to the science

Storage of hydrogen is problematic, I have documented that, repeatedly. Put hydrogen in a car and drive the car the hydrogen is depleted before a significant quantity is lost.

A hydrogen infrastructure for cars does not, will not resemble the infrastructure for gas.


Notice how many hydrogen stations use onsite production:
http://www.fuelcells.org/uploads/h2fuelingstations-US4.pdf

Hydrogenics sells hydrogen fueling stations that use onsite electrolysis:
http://www.hydrogenics.com/products-solutions/energy-storage-fueling-solutions/hydrogen-fueling-stations

Airproducts, (you have already linked to an article on their pipeline) sell hydrogen fueling stations that use onsite production or delivered hydrogen:
http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/Files/PDF/industries/hydrogen-hydrogen-fueling-stations-for-transportation-fleets-datasheet.pdf

Germany: onsite production...
http://www.iphe.net/partners/germany/demonstrations.html

Swiss buses refueled from hydrogen produced onsite
http://www.airliquideadvancedbusiness.com/en/who-we-are/local-news/premiere-station-de-remplissage-d-hydrogene-pour-bus-en-suisse.html

Shanghai uses onsite electrolysis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319907002960

First Element onsite electrolysis 19 stations in California
http://www.firstelementfuel.com/#!about-the-network/c1vey

ITM Power specializes in electrolysis station for commercial and even homeowner applications.
http://www.itm-power.com/clean-fuel/

HafenCity filling station (Shell/Vattenfall), Hamburg
Type of station: Public
Fuels: gaseous hydrogen at 350 and 700 bar
On-site production: electrolysis
Capacity: 20 buses or 200 cars per day
Special features: Located in the HafenCity, on-site electrolysis
http://www.cleanenergypartnership.de/tech/

First Hydrogen station is US uses onsite electrolysis
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1050804_first-hydrogen-filling-station-in-u-s-opens-for-fuel-cell-cars

Protononsite sells onsite hydrogen electrolysis systems for refueling cars
http://protononsite.com/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread