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Wed Apr 22, 2015, 01:24 PM

Toyota is taking on the hydrogen fuel-cell car haters — including Elon Musk

Matthew DeBord | Business Insider.com | April 22, 2015

Elon Musk doesn't have a high opinion of the hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered car. Back in 2013, in Germany, he infamously called the technology "so bullshit." He's also referred to fuel-cells as "fool cells."


Screen Capture from Toyota Ad/Youtube

Toyota, on the other hand, is big on fuel-cells and hydrogen. The automaker is bringing a new vehicle, the Mirai, to market later this year, after revealing the hydrogen-powered 4-door in late 2014.

The challenge for Toyota isn't simply to introduce the whole idea of running a car on hydrogen, something that's unfamiliar due to the very small number of fuel-cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) on the road, as well as the limited refueling network. It's also to overcome negative impressions of FCEVs. When Elon Musk talks, people listen...snip

...The first 3-minute spot, "Fueled by Bullsh*t," was directed by Morgan Spurlock. In it, fuel-cell engineer Scott Blanchet introduces the concept then heads for a dairy farm, where a farmer provides access to a huge pile of cow dung. The engineer loads up, the drives off to introduce us to the hydrogen-extraction process. Essentially, the poop marinates in large pools and generates biogas, which can then have the hydrogen removed. The dairy farmer returns, he and the engineer fuel up a Mirai, and they drive back to farm...snip



More: http://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-is-taking-on-the-hydrogen-car-haters--including-elon-musk-2015-4

Toyota has just begun to fight the "haters"...

What is Hydrogen?

Posted April 22, 2015

What is the potential for Hydrogen?

Posted April 22, 2015

Toyota was the largest automobile manufacturer in 2012 (by production) ahead of the Volkswagen Group and General Motors. In July of that year, the company reported the production of its 200-millionth vehicle. Toyota is the world's first automobile manufacturer to produce more than 10 million vehicles per year. It did so in 2012 according to OICA, and in 2013 according to company data. As of July 2014, Toyota was the largest listed company in Japan by market capitalization (worth more than twice as much as #2-ranked SoftBank) and by revenue.

Toyota vs. Musk? Stay tuned (so to speak)

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Reply Toyota is taking on the hydrogen fuel-cell car haters — including Elon Musk (Original post)
nationalize the fed Apr 2015 OP
NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #1
Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #2
NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #3
Nihil Apr 2015 #7
mackdaddy Apr 2015 #4
Gregorian Apr 2015 #5
NickB79 Apr 2015 #6

Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 01:48 PM

1. 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States is made by natural gas reforming in large plants.

 

This is really just a scam to keep us using fossil fuels and being dependent upon gas station infrastructure.

It's diabolical greenwashing.


Hydrogen Production: Natural Gas Reforming

Photo of Petroleum RefineryAlthough today most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, the Fuel Cell Technologies Office is exploring a variety of ways to produce hydrogen from renewable resources.Natural gas reforming is an advanced and mature production process that builds upon the existing natural gas pipeline delivery infrastructure. Today, 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States is made by natural gas reforming in large central plants. This is an important technology pathway for near-term hydrogen production.
How Does It Work?

Natural gas contains methane (CH4) that can be used to produce hydrogen with thermal processes, such as steam-methane reformation and partial oxidation.
Steam-Methane Reforming

Most hydrogen produced today in the United States is made via steam-methane reforming, a mature production process in which high-temperature steam (700°C–1,000°C) is used to produce hydrogen from a methane source, such as natural gas. In steam-methane reforming, methane reacts with steam under 3–25 bar pressure (1 bar = 14.5 psi) in the presence of a catalyst to produce hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide. Steam reforming is endothermic—that is, heat must be supplied to the process for the reaction to proceed.

Subsequently, in what is called the "water-gas shift reaction," the carbon monoxide and steam are reacted using a catalyst to produce carbon dioxide and more hydrogen. In a final process step called "pressure-swing adsorption," carbon dioxide and other impurities are removed from the gas stream, leaving essentially pure hydrogen. Steam reforming can also be used to produce hydrogen from other fuels, such as ethanol, propane, or even gasoline.

http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming

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Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 01:59 PM

2. It's impossible to convince anyone that something is bullshit if...

... their salary depends on it not being bullshit.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 02:52 PM

3. The "bullshit" video is, of course, a lie.

 

A lie oft repeated, based on a lot of facts but absent the details.

Hydrogen is abundant, yeah we know that and it's useless to us unless we use energy to release it. It exists nowhere unattached to other elements.

Cowpoop contains energy, methane, just like natural gas.

You can collect methane at diaries. I've took a group on a field trip to Vintage Dairy, where they collect the waste, store in in a forty foot deep pit, collect the gas and scrub it an add it to the natural gas infrastructure.

Toyota dude took a load of poop to the diary to show how gas can be derived from it, that might even have been the place I went.

Then they pump some methane into a truck and take it god knows how far to a Nuvera methane to hydrogen plant and make some hydrogen, put it in an ugly car.

NOTE: the Nuvera plant makes hydrogen out of natural gas from fracked wells, that is where our hydrogen will come from.

That is CAN be done using manure is all that we know. It will never be done at commercial scale.

Just ask Nuvera: http://www.nuvera.com/blog/?p=2288

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 23, 2015, 03:22 AM

7. Wonder if it was originally posted on April 1st?

 

Just saying ...

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Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 03:04 PM

4. SHOW ME THE MONEY !!!!!

Or at least show me the bill. If this can really compete on a cost basis, Let us see it.

Hydrogen energy technology is only a different form of energy storage, competing with batteries, compressed air, or pumping water up hill. It is not a primary energy source.

Solar pv panels were not competitive except on a special needs situation until the panel price dropped by 90% in the last 5 years. I have a hard time seeing the practical generation, storage and conversion back to usable energy forms of hydrogen being cost competitive with other existing technologies.

Converting methane from biodigesters to hydrogen may not be the best use of the energy available. Why not just burn the methane in a co-generator without all other processing? And the methane (natural gas) from biodigesters has to compete with the Fracked well sources which is another whole "show me the money" issue.

(a biodigester captures methane from contained decomposing organic waste like the cow poop above, or organic garbage like spoiled food, by the way.)

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Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 03:57 PM

5. i'm concerned that this is going to dupe those who don't know better.

I'm not even going to waste my time replying with coherent logic that makes this look as ridiculous as it is.

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Response to nationalize the fed (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2015, 06:19 PM

6. The auto and fossil fuel industries have been working together for all of the 20th century

So it should come as no surprise that they're working together to figure out how to keep working together far into the 21st century.

Hydrogen is another way for the fossil fuel companies to stay relevant, given that they'd be supplying all that wonderful, frack-gas-derived hydrogen to fuel Toyota's cars.

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