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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 03:30 PM Jan 2016

Why clean energy is now expanding even when fossil fuels are cheap

Why clean energy is now expanding even when fossil fuels are cheap

By Chris Mooney January 14 at 10:59 AM


...In a new analysis, Bloomberg New Energy Finance finds that 2015 was a record year for global investment in the clean energy space, with $329 billion invested in wind, solar panels, biomass plants and more around the world. (The number does not include investments in large hydroelectric facilities).

That’s 3 percent higher than the prior 2011 global investment record of $ 318 billion — and most striking is that it happened in a year in which key fossil fuels — oil, coal and natural gas — were quite cheap.

...As BNEF notes, the price of oil — which is burned to generate a fair amount of electricity around the world, though this is rare in the U.S. — tanked in 2015. Coal prices and U.S. natural gas prices also got considerably cheaper over the second half of 2014 and the 12 months of 2015. Nonetheless, China and the UK invested in massive multibillion-dollar offshore wind farms, even as other nations, from the U.S. to Brazil, saw near billion-dollar expenditures on new solar farms and biomass plants.

...Measured in terms of electricity generating capacity, the world saw an additional 64 gigawatts of wind capacity added and 57 gigawatts of solar capacity, BNEF estimates. The most striking figure here is that while 2015 only saw about 4 percent more clean energy investment than 2014 (when $ 316 billion was invested), the growth in renewable energy generating capacity was much higher at 30 percent. This, again, signals declining cost, says Zindler.

The technologies have reached an important tipping point in a number of markets in the world,” ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/01/14/why-clean-energy-is-now-expanding-even-when-fossil-fuels-are-cheap/


Bloomberg Press Release:
JAN 14, 2016
CLEAN ENERGY DEFIES FOSSIL FUEL PRICE CRASH TO ATTRACT RECORD $329BN GLOBAL INVESTMENT IN 2015
2015 was also the highest ever for installation of renewable power capacity, with 64GW of wind and 57GW of solar PV commissioned during the year, an increase of nearly 30% over 2014.




London and New York, 14 January 2016 – Clean energy investment surged in China, Africa, the US, Latin America and India in 2015, driving the world total to its highest ever figure, of $328.9bn, up 4% from 2014’s revised $315.9bn and beating the previous record, set in 2011 by 3%.

The latest figures from Bloomberg New Energy Finance show dollar investment globally growing in 2015 to nearly six times its 2004 total and a new record of one third of a trillion dollars (see chart on page 3), despite four influences that might have been expected to restrain it.

These were: further declines in the cost of solar photovoltaics, meaning that more capacity could be installed for the same price; the strength of the US currency, reducing the dollar value of non-dollar investment; the continued weakness of the European economy, formerly the powerhouse of renewable energy investment; and perhaps most significantly, the plunge in fossil fuel commodity prices.

Over the 18 months to the end of 2015, the price of Brent crude plunged 67% from $112.36 to $37.28 per barrel, international steam coal delivered to the north west Europe hub dropped 35% from $73.70 to $47.60 per tonne. Natural gas in the US fell 48% on the Henry Hub index from $4.42 to $2.31 per million British Thermal Units.

Michael Liebreich, chairman of the advisory board at Bloomberg New Energy Finance, said: “These figures are a stunning riposte to all those who expected clean energy investment to stall on falling oil and gas prices....



More at http://about.bnef.com/press-releases/clean-energy-defies-fossil-fuel-price-crash-to-attract-record-329bn-global-investment-in-2015/

Direct link to Bloomberg slide show on their data: https://www.bnef.com/dataview/clean-energy-investment/index.html
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why clean energy is now expanding even when fossil fuels are cheap (Original Post) kristopher Jan 2016 OP
We don't for a minute think that cheap petroleum is here to stay. A few months of low prices aren't Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #1
That is a strong element at the personal decision level... kristopher Jan 2016 #3
It's simpler than all that FBaggins Jan 2016 #2
Great point - except it isn't true. kristopher Jan 2016 #4
Then why would the solar industry in Nevada be in such a panic? FBaggins Jan 2016 #5
Riiiight. kristopher Jan 2016 #6
Feel free to back it up whenever you like FBaggins Jan 2016 #7
Keep making things up kristopher Jan 2016 #8
Can you be more specific re: what you think I made up? FBaggins Jan 2016 #11
1) Given your penchant for making things up... kristopher Jan 2016 #12
Never happened? FBaggins Jan 2016 #15
I didn't "repeat it several times" kristopher Jan 2016 #16
Many posts are gone, but Google still reflects eight or nine instances FBaggins Jan 2016 #17
I provided the original text and linked to it - it supports what I wrote. kristopher Jan 2016 #18
It appears there IS a live link that supports what F.Baggins stated NickB79 Jan 2016 #23
2) Policies kristopher Jan 2016 #13
3) Nevada kristopher Jan 2016 #14
The "investment" they're making is a toxicological nightmare. Only a person who... NNadir Jan 2016 #19
Poor little feller.... kristopher Jan 2016 #20
Of course, I could cut and paste mindlessly from the 27,400 references to arsenic in solar... NNadir Jan 2016 #21
Pathetic whinging... kristopher Jan 2016 #22
I always enjoy it enormously when anti-nukes openly display their intellectual level. NNadir Jan 2016 #24
coal/oil are obsolete and no price decline changes that - future corporate growth is in renewables n msongs Jan 2016 #9
Yes, but... kristopher Jan 2016 #10

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
1. We don't for a minute think that cheap petroleum is here to stay. A few months of low prices aren't
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 03:36 PM
Jan 2016

really going to change focus. We don't want to be a slave to energy companies any longer. I don't want to worry about losing my lights and heat if I can't make my utility payments. I want personal and national energy independence.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. That is a strong element at the personal decision level...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 03:50 PM
Jan 2016

Control of a people's (or person's) energy supply is, quite literally control of life itself. That fundamental aspect of that sentiment is especially clear if you recall that food equals the most basic energy supply.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
2. It's simpler than all that
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 03:42 PM
Jan 2016

It's due to (mostly) wise governmental policy decisions. If, for instance, we require that x% of generation come from renewables, then it doesn't matter how cheap alternatives become.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. Great point - except it isn't true.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 03:54 PM
Jan 2016

The policies that have most significantly effected this shift are the ones that have driven price reductions in renewables. You know, like the ones you denied were happening in China.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
5. Then why would the solar industry in Nevada be in such a panic?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:12 PM
Jan 2016

They supposedly passed "grid parity" several years ago. Surely government removing subsidies wouldn't cripple the industry at this point, right?

You know, like the ones you denied were happening in China.


You have an active/creative memory. I never denied that China was implementing policies that would assist renewables (such as requirements for the grid to purchase such generation first). I denied that it was evidence that they were reducing their drive for more nuclear generation. My claim was that they were pushing for lots more of BOTH nuclear and renewables.

Which... if you've been paying attention... was the correct call. Unlike, say, claims that they were just going to finish up the units that were already "in the pipeline" and then backing away from nuclear power.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
7. Feel free to back it up whenever you like
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:48 PM
Jan 2016

I'll just sit here pretending that you didn't just dodge the relevant question in the title or your ridiculous prediction for their nuclear expenditures.

I do remember rubbishing your claim that solar manufacturing capacity would hit a full TW per year by the end of this decade - telling you that that was about the most optimistic expectation for cumulative installed capacity, not annual manufacturing capacity. If that's the claim you're thinking of... then I'm happy to "own" it - since it was entirely correct.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
8. Keep making things up
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:11 PM
Jan 2016

That's what you do best.

ETA: you did make one valid point - I neglected the question you posed about Nevada "why would the solar industry in Nevada be in such a panic?"

That's a classic example of the myopia you exhibit when you observe events.

There are two threads that are distinct but intertwined.
1) The progress of the industry as a whole and
2) the effect localized efforts by the entrenched energy industry can have on people who have invested in the state of things as any given time.

Nevada solar is very cost effective based on the track where it is integrated into the grid to augment peak generation. In the land of facts, this saves the utility money that should be passed on to the customer base. In the world where a regulated industry has captured control of the regulator however, the savings are coming out of the hide of the owners of existing peaking plants and baseload plants that ramp up to capture the higher prices they've structured during peak periods.
The captured regulators (in the pocket of the existing powerco owners) are scrambling to find a way to protect the investments in the existing plants - even though that is counter to their mandate.
The solution they've come up with (via ALEC) is the bogus claim that existing solar policies are costing other ratepayers money because solar owners aren't 'paying their fair share' for the grid - a claim which is a bald faced lie.
They have the power to do that though, fair or not.
Thus you have existing solar owners and businesses being harmed. I'd say their "panic" as you call it, is a well founded fury.

The problem with the utility's approach however, is that the grid is only one route for exploiting the benefits of solar. The next phase is grid defection. As the multiple battery gigafactories come online and their cost reductions drive adoption for home use, the customer base of the utilities is guaranteed to shrink. In this scenario, the utility will have no recourse and their only option will be to hike prices on their remaining customers; a move that will only accelerate grid defection.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
11. Can you be more specific re: what you think I made up?
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 03:52 PM
Jan 2016

You definitely said that 1TW of production capacity was expected within the decade (and that was somewhere around the start of this decade). You also claimed that China was moving away from Nuclear and that their renewables policies were evidence of this (in your continued confusion that the two are not compatible systems).

Re: Nevada - It's an interesting conversation, but beside the point. It is evidence that new solar/wind rely heavily on proper governmental policies. I think Nevada is premature, but we both know that once renewables are a significant portion of generation, retail pricing plans have to depart from net-metering and free/cheap access to the grid as backup. If I need something to be available 24/7/365 (and no... home batteries don't change that), but I don't intend to use it... then a consumption pricing model doesn't make sense. I don't think that Nevada is there yet (though they probably are there for net-metering), but that's a timing conversation.

Rather that nitpick on that one, there are LOTS of other examples that make the point. What was the prediction for 2016/2017 renewables installations in the US before/after the recent policy change? What's the impact on renewables in the UK when the conservatives shut off the taps? What was the impact on new wind capacity in the US over the last three years compared to 2012? Plenty large enough to prove "governmental policy decisions" continue to be the primary driver for expanding renewables despite cheap fossil fuel prices.

Nevada solar is very cost effective based on the track where it is integrated into the grid to augment peak generation.


I'd say that it's better than that. Nevada is one of the places where a large portion of demand tracks almost perfectly with PV capacity utilization. It effectively ends the need for peak generation for A/C needs in the summer. Unfortunately, this is also what accelerates the demise of net-metering. They'll eventually get to the point where hot sunny days have too much excess capacity and they have to find someone to take generation off their hands (as with Germany). This means simultaneously that "peaker" plants at unviable and that residential solar excesses have no value (yes, until it can be stored cheaply). It doesn't make sense to pay them a flat rate for power that has little to no value.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
12. 1) Given your penchant for making things up...
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 04:51 PM
Jan 2016

...I'm starting to believe you actually ARE Rod Adams.

You definitely said that 1TW of production capacity was expected within the decade (and that was somewhere around the start of this decade).

Never happened.

You also claimed that China was moving away from Nuclear and that their renewables policies were evidence of this...

On this one I can see one argument I might have made, but if that is what you are referring to, you've altered my statements.
ETA for clarity - I'll be happy to respond in more detail if you provide a direct quote. I'm fairly confident you are once again distorting the timeline.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
15. Never happened?
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 11:33 PM
Jan 2016

I guess someone else stole your login and posted this just to embarrass you?



To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started. Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=293819&mesg_id=294014


You liked the statement so much that you posted it several times

I think I last reminded you of it a in 2013 and never got a reply. Ironically posting: "Or do you weasel out again - vanish from the thread - and pretend it never happened the next time it comes up?"

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
16. I didn't "repeat it several times"
Sat Jan 16, 2016, 04:00 AM
Jan 2016

I got tangled in the definition of GWp and in that one instance used it as "production" instead of "peak"; even though I concurrently was accurately presenting the arguments for the plants accomplishing cumulative installed capacity of 1000GWpeak.

**In 2003, when the DOE solar pamphlet below was written, the US was the leader in PV - now we are 5th. Myth #2 identifies a target of 3.2 GWp of US manufacturing capacity as being needed to meet a US goal of 10% of electricity from solar by 2030. The /p/ in GWp refers to manufacturing production capacity.

However since the Republicans have successfully obstructed every policy that would have helped the industry grow here, global solar manufacturing capacity is now the number to look at. Global mfg capacity will reach about 45GWp this year with China's manufacturing capacity alone expected to hit 35GWp, even though they didn't start building solar panel factories until 2007.

To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started. Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year

<snip>

When we talk about electricity at the national level, the units are larger:

1 GigaWatt (GW) = 1,000 MegaWatts (MW) = 1,000,000 KiloWatts (KW) = 1,000,000,000 Watts.

If a generator or solar array produces 1000 watts, that means at that instant there are "1000 watts" of electricity coming out of the unit (remember this "instant" term). If that rate continues for 1 hour, it has produced "1000 watt hours" or "1 kwh" of electricity, which is how the power companies sell their product. The unit on your residential bill will be the "kilowatt hour" (kwh). (see Micheal Bluejay’s site above if this isn’t clear)

A solar factory (or solar manufacturing facility) or wind turbine manufacturing plant can produce a maximum number of solar panels or wind turbines each year. Let's say one factory can produce enough turbines or panels to produce a total of 1 GW of "instant" power when they are all online, then that factory has a capacity of 1GW/year. Each GW of turbines or panels it produces is added to all previously installed generators to boost the "installed capacity" that is feeding into the grid.

A factory can produce at its capacity for as long as it makes economic sense for it to continue to operate, and each of the wind turbines or solar panels they make will, once installed, produce electricity for 20+ years for wind turbines and 30+ years for solar panels.

If a factory produces 1 GW for 20 years it will produce 20GW of installed capacity, if the factory produces for 40 years it will produce 40GW of installed capacity.

This is different than a conventional coal, nuclear or natural gas plant where it takes between 2 years (natgas) 12+ years (nuclear) to construct each facility for generating electricity. The amount of time devoted to constructing a thermal generating plant is rewarded with the ability to produce electricity any time, day or night no matter the weather. This characteristic of “dispatchability” is the core of how our electric system has developed over time, and is often referred to inappropriately as “baseload” power when critics of renewables point to the variability inherent to the most prominent renewable energy sources.

Post 12 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x293819

Repeated at post 18:
However since the Republicans have successfully obstructed every policy that would have helped the industry grow here, global solar manufacturing capacity is now the number to look at. Global mfg capacity will reach about 45GWp this year with China's manufacturing capacity alone expected to hit 35GWp, even though they didn't start building solar panel factories until 2007.

To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started.Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year


For the record, the 1000GWp was a benchmark that many thought we'd need to hit in order for the price of solar electricity to undercut the price of coal. The bold text should have read:
To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started.Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that cumulative global solar installed capacity will hit 1000GWp.


Why didn't you point out the error at the time? The innocence of the mistake - along with the mistake itself - was pretty obvious. That you didn't point it out at that time begs the question of why you feel the need to bring it up now. Are you trying to say I was lying; or that the basis of the comparison between the carbon mitigation capabilities of a solar panel factory vs a nuclear reactor was invalid?

Really, what specifically is your purpose in going back 4 years to highlight this mistake?

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
17. Many posts are gone, but Google still reflects eight or nine instances
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 02:28 PM
Jan 2016

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as "several".

I got tangled in the definition of GWp and in that one instance used it as "production" instead of "peak"


Nope. It was repeated over and over (and defended a couple years later). About a month and a half after the original post (or at least the oldest that I can now find), you said "If we can get 1000GWp of solar manufacturing capacity built by 2020, we have climate change licked."
(http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.phpaz=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=296715&mesg_id=296889)

For the record, the 1000GWp was a benchmark that many thought we'd need to hit...

You were asked multiple times for a single source claiming that. If you've ever found one... by all means provide it.

The bold text should have read: ...panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants.

Try comparing their actual production over the last five years to this claim. As predicted at the time... it was nonsense (even when adjusting for "unit" rather than "plant&quot .

Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that cumulative global solar installed capacity will hit 1000GWp.

Even the corrected claim is nonsense. Note that we're roughly five years into this ten year period... and hoped to hit 1/5th of this total by the end of last year. There's precisely zero chance of five consecutive years of installs that each top all solar installs worldwide to date.

Why didn't you point out the error at the time? The innocence of the mistake - along with the mistake itself - was pretty obvious.

It was indeed obvious (to one of us)... and I did point it out multiple times. The only one I can find today was "And for the record... I think that the 1,000 GW figure is not an annual manufacturing goal, but a total INSTALLED label capacity goal... and for much longer than 10 years from now." and "And the notion that you even think it's possible to get to 1,000 GWp annually in ten years just shows how disconnected you've become from reality."

The real question is why you weren't listening and instead repeated the claim over and over again.

Really, what specifically is your purpose in going back 4 years to highlight this mistake?

I would think that's obvious. It was an example of your ongoing overexuberance in renewables projections and/or analysis. Other examples include the factory in Europe that produced parts of wind turbines yet you took their projected peak capacity (along with attractive capacity factors) and compared how much wind power would be produced due to that single factory to a number of reactors. Or the claim that multiple utility-scale wave power plants would be in existence by about now because the technology was all "off the shelf" technology. Or the claim that "rock batteries" were just around the corner for the same reason.

For the record... solar manufacturers still suffer under too much overcapacity (and China still hasn't produced 35GW of solar units in a year) and new manufacturing capacity is shifting to other countries (including, surprisingly, the US) and China's factories would be in truly desperate circumstances were it not for the government soaking up incredible levels of output (on edit - I think they're running ~60% of capacity with the government buying up roughly half of that amount to keep the companies solvent). The wind turbine factory never reached production and closed down a couple years ago. We've made very little progress on wave generation (specifically because the technology was far from off-the-shelf), and the designer of the rock batteries has substantially changed their design (though I like what I'm seeing).

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
18. I provided the original text and linked to it - it supports what I wrote.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 04:26 PM
Jan 2016

Your link is dead.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.phpaz=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=296715&mesg_id=296889

All I see from you are a string of completely unsubstantiated allegations where you attempt more distortions consistent with your longstanding habit of arguing straw men.

And just as was the case in the 4 year old linked post, it is evident that you are avoiding dealing with the present topic where anyone can easily follow the discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112795863#post13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112795863#post14

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
23. It appears there IS a live link that supports what F.Baggins stated
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:51 PM
Jan 2016

All I had to do was Google the phrase ""If we can get 1000GWp of solar manufacturing capacity built by 2020, we have climate change licked."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x296754

In 2003, when the DOE solar pamphlet below was written, the US was the leader in PV - now we are 5th. Myth #2 identifies a target of 3.2 GWp of US manufacturing capacity as being needed to meet a US goal of 10% of electricity from solar by 2030. The /p/ in GWp refers to manufacturing production capacity.

However since the Republicans have successfully obstructed every policy that would have helped the industry grow here, global solar manufacturing capacity is now the number to look at. Global mfg capacity will reach about 45GWp this year with China's manufacturing capacity alone expected to hit 35GWp, even though they didn't start building solar panel factories until 2007.

To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started. Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year


You also go on to say:

The average time to plan and build a nuclear plant is 12+ year, so I chose that as a baseline. If China builds no additional manufacturing plants after this year:

Year 2012 they will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of 7-8 nuclear plants.
Year 2013 they will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of another 7-8 nuclear plants.
Year 2014 they will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of yet another 7-8 nuclear plants.
Year 2015 they will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of 7-8 more nuclear plants.
Etc, etc etc... until the factories close.

In the 12 years it takes to build a nuclear plant they will produce and install enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear plants.

Now consider a more realistic scenario where the manufacturing base keeps growing until we hit the 350GWp.

That would equal 70-80 nuclear plants worth of new electricity generation being brought online every year; and that is fully accounting for capacity factors of both technologies.

Remember too, that doesn't count wind, geothermal, biomass, biofuels, and wave/current/tidal.

If we can get 1000GWp of solar manufacturing capacity built by 2020, we have climate change licked.


kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. 2) Policies
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 05:15 PM
Jan 2016
It's an interesting conversation, but beside the point. It is evidence that new solar/wind rely heavily on proper governmental policies. I think Nevada is premature, but we both know that once renewables are a significant portion of generation, retail pricing plans have to depart from net-metering and free/cheap access to the grid as backup. If I need something to be available 24/7/365 (and no... home batteries don't change that), but I don't intend to use it... then a consumption pricing model doesn't make sense. I don't think that Nevada is there yet (though they probably are there for net-metering), but that's a timing conversation.

Responding to the bold text:
No, it is exactly the point you asked about when you claimed that government policies (your example was mandates for renewables) are what is driving global investment decisions. Remember please that you are responding to an article about global investment. You cited mandates, I countered with "policies that ...have driven price reductions in renewables".

Mandates do help to lower prices by creating artificial demand that stimulates investment in manufacturing. But the strategy of strong direct support for manufacturing that has been pursued by China (which I explicitly referenced) had far, far greater impact on the rate and scale of price reduction than any government's mandated level of installed renewable generation.


Your original remark attempting to refute that the drive for investment is based on the declining cost of renewables:
It's simpler than all that. It's due to (mostly) wise governmental policy decisions. If, for instance, we require that x% of generation come from renewables, then it doesn't matter how cheap alternatives become.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
14. 3) Nevada
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 05:30 PM
Jan 2016
It's an interesting conversation, but beside the point. It is evidence that new solar/wind rely heavily on proper governmental policies. I think Nevada is premature, but we both know that once renewables are a significant portion of generation, retail pricing plans have to depart from net-metering and free/cheap access to the grid as backup. If I need something to be available 24/7/365 (and no... home batteries don't change that), but I don't intend to use it... then a consumption pricing model doesn't make sense. I don't think that Nevada is there yet (though they probably are there for net-metering), but that's a timing conversation.


Responding to the bold text:
Again, this discussion is being conducted under the umbrella of an article about global investment. You bring up Nevada from a contemporaneous but separate thread as, I assume, being an example that typifies the nature of global investment in renewables.
It isn't since much of the investment referenced in the OP is happening in BRIC and, to a much smaller degree in the far more important undeveloped market.

As for Nevada and the discussion that relates more to this thread:
With State Poised to Squash Rooftop Solar, Clean Energy Fight Heats Up In Nevada
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/01/13/state-poised-squash-rooftop-solar-clean-energy-fight-heats-nevada
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112795849

My reply is the same as my original statement above:
There are two threads that are distinct but intertwined.
1) The progress of the industry as a whole and
2) the effect localized efforts by the entrenched energy industry can have on people who have invested in the state of things as any given time.

Nevada solar is very cost effective based on the track where it is integrated into the grid to augment peak generation. In the land of facts, this saves the utility money that should be passed on to the customer base. In the world where a regulated industry has captured control of the regulator however, the savings are coming out of the hide of the owners of existing peaking plants and baseload plants that ramp up to capture the higher prices they've structured during peak periods.
The captured regulators (in the pocket of the existing powerco owners) are scrambling to find a way to protect the investments in the existing plants - even though that is counter to their mandate.
The solution they've come up with (via ALEC) is the bogus claim that existing solar policies are costing other ratepayers money because solar owners aren't 'paying their fair share' for the grid - a claim which is a bald faced lie.
They have the power to do that though, fair or not.
Thus you have existing solar owners and businesses being harmed. I'd say their "panic" as you call it, is a well founded fury.

The problem with the utility's approach however, is that the grid is only one route for exploiting the benefits of solar. The next phase is grid defection. As the multiple battery gigafactories come online and their cost reductions drive adoption for home use, the customer base of the utilities is guaranteed to shrink. In this scenario, the utility will have no recourse and their only option will be to hike prices on their remaining customers; a move that will only accelerate grid defection.


So, have you ever figured out a way to link LMP to baseload generators strategizing the use of daily peak auctions to pad their profits and the way solar is killing that strategy?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x308561

NNadir

(33,510 posts)
19. The "investment" they're making is a toxicological nightmare. Only a person who...
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:49 PM
Jan 2016

...doesn't give a shit about the lives of Chinese people could be applauding cadmium mines and lanthanide mines in China to produce so called "renewable" garbage, which is neither "renewable" nor "sustainable" since it has a low energy to mass density and relies on materials with a huge mining impact.

Among the many thousands of papers written on the topic that can easily read by anyone who gives a shit, which is to say anyone who's not an airhead cheering for batteries and other soon to be electronic waste for their stupid electric car fantasies, is this one:

Occurrence and Partitioning of Cadmium, Arsenic and Lead in Mine Impacted Paddy Rice: Hunan, China (Environ. Sci. Technol., 2009, 43 (3), pp 637–642)

Of course, most of the shit for brains cheerleaders for mining toxic metals and materials in China don't give a shit.

My experience of the people who applaud what is happening in China in the so called "renewable energy" field is that they don't give a rat's ass about China's environment, about China's people or for that matter, about the planetary environment and the rest of the human race, mostly because most of them are clearly illiterate about environmental issues.

And one reason that they don't give a shit about Chinese is that it's not like the average Chinese, where the per capita income is still less than $10,000 is going to run out and buy a stupid Tesla electric car for billionaires and millionaires.

Here is the result, graphically, of the grand, expensive and wasteful experience of the "explosion" of "renewable energy" that intellectual Lilliputians have been cheering about for the last half a century:



2015 comes in as the worst year ever observed at the Mauna Loa CO2 observatory.

The ethically challenged uneducated primitives, the mindless anti-nukes who have caused this tragedy, deserve the excoriation history will give them, should history exist in the case humanity survives the effects of their ignorance.

Have a nice day tomorrow.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
20. Poor little feller....
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 07:02 AM
Jan 2016
Why the modern world is bad for your brain
In an era of email, text messages, Facebook and Twitter, we’re all required to do several things at once. But this constant multitasking is taking its toll. Here neuroscientist Daniel J Levitin explains how our addiction to technology is making us less efficient

Daniel J Levitin
Sunday 18 January 2015



Daniel J Levitan: ‘When trying to concentrate on a task, an unread email in your inbox can reduce your effective IQ by 10 points.


Our brains are busier than ever before. We’re assaulted with facts, pseudo facts, jibber-jabber, and rumour, all posing as information. Trying to figure out what you need to know and what you can ignore is exhausting. At the same time, we are all doing more. Thirty years ago, travel agents made our airline and rail reservations, salespeople helped us find what we were looking for in shops, and professional typists or secretaries helped busy people with their correspondence. Now we do most of those things ourselves. We are doing the jobs of 10 different people while still trying to keep up with our lives, our children and parents, our friends, our careers, our hobbies, and our favourite TV shows.

Our smartphones have become Swiss army knife–like appliances that include a dictionary, calculator, web browser, email, Game Boy, appointment calendar, voice recorder, guitar tuner, weather forecaster, GPS, texter, tweeter, Facebook updater, and flashlight. They’re more powerful and do more things than the most advanced computer at IBM corporate headquarters 30 years ago. And we use them all the time, part of a 21st-century mania for cramming everything we do into every single spare moment of downtime. We text while we’re walking across the street, catch up on email while standing in a queue – and while having lunch with friends, we surreptitiously check to see what our other friends are doing. At the kitchen counter, cosy and secure in our domicile, we write our shopping lists on smartphones while we are listening to that wonderfully informative podcast on urban beekeeping.

But there’s a fly in the ointment. Although we think we’re doing several things at once, multitasking, this is a powerful and diabolical illusion. Earl Miller, a neuroscientist at MIT and one of the world experts on divided attention, says that our brains are “not wired to multitask well… When people think they’re multitasking, they’re actually just switching from one task to another very rapidly. And every time they do, there’s a cognitive cost in doing so.” So we’re not actually keeping a lot of balls in the air like an expert juggler; we’re more like a bad amateur plate spinner, frantically switching from one task to another, ignoring the one that is not right in front of us but worried it will come crashing down any minute. Even though we think we’re getting a lot done, ironically, multitasking makes us demonstrably less efficient.

Multitasking has been found to increase the production of the stress hormone cortisol as well as the fight-or-flight hormone adrenaline, which can overstimulate your brain and cause mental fog or scrambled thinking. Multitasking creates a dopamine-addiction feedback loop, effectively rewarding the brain for losing focus and for constantly searching for external stimulation. To make matters worse, the prefrontal cortex has a novelty bias, meaning that its attention can be easily hijacked by something new – the proverbial shiny objects we use to entice infants, puppies, and kittens. The irony here for those of us who are trying to focus amid competing activities is clear: the very brain region we need to rely on for staying on task is easily distracted. We answer the phone, look up something on the internet, check our email, send an SMS, and each of these things tweaks the novelty- seeking, reward-seeking centres of the brain, causing a burst of endogenous opioids (no wonder it feels so good!), all to the detriment of our staying on task. It is the ultimate empty-caloried brain candy. Instead of reaping the big rewards that come from sustained, focused effort, we instead reap empty rewards from completing a thousand little sugar-coated tasks.

In the old days, if the phone rang and we were busy, we either didn’t answer or we turned the ringer off....
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/18/modern-world-bad-for-brain-daniel-j-levitin-organized-mind-information-overload

NNadir

(33,510 posts)
21. Of course, I could cut and paste mindlessly from the 27,400 references to arsenic in solar...
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 09:58 AM
Jan 2016

...cells in the primary scientific literature as measured by Google Scholar, but this would not mark me as an expert on this toxicological nightmare put forth by bourgeois brats in the first world at the expense of people living under third world conditions.

It would merely mean that I can cut and paste. I would assume, although I don't know for sure, that we could train monkeys to do that.

Of course, anyone with a respectable intellectual fondness for science would not attempt to get his science education from a dumb newspaper, like say, the Guardian.

Generally, newspaper reporters are as scientifically illiterate, as a class, as are the class of people who hate nuclear energy because they have never in their lives passed a physics or math class.

Have a nice weekend.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
22. Pathetic whinging...
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 10:31 AM
Jan 2016

More disjointed, pathetic whinging isn't going to revive the nuclear dinosaur. No matter how often you fabricate falsehoods; irrespective of the ethical depths your delusions of righteousness crawl; you aren't going to remake that nuclear pig into a glowing silk purse.

ttfn

NNadir

(33,510 posts)
24. I always enjoy it enormously when anti-nukes openly display their intellectual level.
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:54 PM
Jan 2016

Have a nice weekend!

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
10. Yes, but...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:32 PM
Jan 2016

That kind of corporate entity is going to be more along the lines of computers or cars. The commodification of personal energy production is a technical revolution that is going to have yuuuge, positive impacts on culture going forward.

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