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Tue Feb 12, 2019, 06:21 AM

Catalonia independence leaders on trial in Madrid

Source: BBC

Catalonia independence leaders on trial in Madrid

12 February 2019

A dozen leaders of Catalonia's failed 2017 independence bid have gone on trial in Madrid, facing charges including rebellion and sedition.

If convicted, some could face up to 25 years in prison.

The semi-autonomous region of Catalonia held an independence referendum on 1 October 2017, and declared its independence from Spain weeks later.

But Spanish authorities declared the vote illegal, and the national government imposed direct rule.

The Catalonia crisis is considered the most serious to hit Spain since the era of fascist dictator Francisco Franco, who died in 1975.

-snip-


Read more: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47211041


The dozen accused appeared in Madrid's Supreme Court on Tuesday morning

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Response to Eugene (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 06:36 AM

1. Rebellion and sedition.

Draconian laws for a draconian country.

No good shall come from this.

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Response to Thyla (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:14 PM

3. Do you also believe Catalonia was once an independent Nation,

proud and free?

Tell me, what penalties might such alleged acts in the USA incur?

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:26 PM

4. That is a bit of a mess of a reply but I'll try

I don't believe anything, I go by facts and history of which Catalonia's is well documented, wiki is a good start but other sources are available.
I also think the question is irrelevant, certainly to me anyway and despite the noise from both sides of the argument if you are still arguing about the middle ages then it's time to move on.
I also don't particularly care so there is that but I do care when abuses of human rights happen so there is that too.

Why USA? What would happen in China or Russia? Just as irrelevant really.
ECJ should be the only ones whom that question should be asked and it'll be likely they will get a hearing at least,it will probably get dismissed and if we are lucky a few recommendations which Spain will ignore and we are all back to square one.

And for clarity, I don't have a side on this. I don't care if Catalonia secedes or stays, it's not my problem. The argument of saying legally you can't secede is dodgy at best and at worse(although almost totally unlikely) is how wars start.
The PP manufactured this shit show of a problem, made things inherently worse than what they were which wasn't great to begin with and frankly we can all do without this being dragged on for years to Spain's detriment.

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Response to Thyla (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:57 PM

5. Thanks, then, for the clarification,

showing that the term 'draconian', as applied above, is inappropriate.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 03:28 AM

6. It really is appropriate

Especially in reference to this case, the events that led up to it, the response afterwards and the extradition orders that were not upheld by fellow EU member states or dropped completely because they knew the courts would deny them.
I mean you don't have to dig too far in news articles to see the term thrown around and people opinions of these laws and more importantly the way they have been applied. It does seem to be the consensus outside of Spanish nationalist circles.

Me, it's probably best I don't give my full, free and honest opinion on a public internet forum because funnily enough there is another law that would potentially prevent one from speaking their own mind should it be critical of Spanish institutions.

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Response to Thyla (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 12:56 PM

7. Could you point out, then, how Spanish constitutional law should be changed

to deal with politicians representing a minority of voters and associates who misappropriate public funds and use them for unconstitutional partisan purposes in an attempt to break up the State (and impose a smaller State, outside the EU, against the will of the majority)?

At present, they are being tried in a Court of Law.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 01:41 PM

8. The Wolf pack were tried in a Spanish Court of Law too...

And in Spanish courts perjury is legal for both claimant and defendant. So good luck with that trial, full confidence. Should be fun.

As for the first part I genuinely cannot distinguish if you are talking about Catalonia or Spanish politics in general. Made me laugh but it's probably a good time to invoke that gag law. They change the law here every 5 minutes so I guess they can rustle up all sorts of amendments if they could all stop provoking each other.

Would be nice to go a full term without having 3 general elections and a government overthrow though. That would help.

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Response to Thyla (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 05:39 PM

9. Well, yes Thyla, the Wolf Pack case, the way it's being handled,

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:32 PM - Edit history (7)

causes us to hallucinate, or let's say, hopefully, alerts us even more to all that needs to be improved, socially, politically and culturally as well as judicially all over Spain.

I see you're here, then, like me.

Good point about not being sure whether I referred to Catalan or Spanish politics in general! You made me laugh too, thanks. Although it is sad.

Nevertheless, no worse than elsewhere in the morally decadent "West".

You will be aware, of course, of all the political/commercial/class-based corruption and cronyism in Catalonia (I must organise my list of cases) and everywhere else in Spain, but in my experience especially in the contemporary Catalunya as forged by the Molt Honorable Sr. Jordi Pujol i Soley and family (Marta Ferrusola Lladˇs of the Opus Dei and sons) and followers (exemplary businessman Javier de la Rosa, Finance Minister MaciÓ Alavedra i Moner and wife ...)... The genuinely honorable Sr. Pasqual Maragall called it out, loudly enough...

Perhaps an independent Catalunya could offer amnesty or pardons to such [strike]criminals[/strike] strongly alleged, arraigned and (very) occasionally condemned "white collar" criminals.

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Response to Eugene (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:09 PM

2. The BBC here falsely-frames the narrative.

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:41 PM - Edit history (2)

The semi-autonomous region of Catalonia did not hold an independence referendum on 1 October 2017. Some Catalan political parties and other groups and individuals together organised a referendum declared by both Catalan and Spanish Supreme Courts to be illegal, because unconstitutional, and did so using the public money of all Catalans (as well as that of, let's see who, private and, who knows? foreign state financiers).

The semi-autonomous region of Catalonia did not declare its independence from Spain weeks later: the leader of the separatist political parties did make such a declaration, then immediately suspended it.

The BBC has an agenda on this issue, obviously. Something to do with Gibraltar (and British Offshore Taxhavens (BOTs) and tax-evasion generally), probably.

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