You Deserve to be Offended
We are living in a crazy time. People who only wish to visit and pray at the holiest site in their religion are branded as right-wing religious extremists while those who use violence and intimidation to prevent them from doing so are innocents whose rights are being threatened every time a Jew dares to quote a passage from the Book of Psalms.
Jews praying and blessing are a threat to peace. Heck, Jews walking and minding their own business are a threat to peace in this backwards world where stone throwers are somehow practicing non-violence despite the people they kill and maim.
The reality is exactly the opposite. People who want to do nothing more than visit and pray at the location they consider to be the holiest on earth are a threat to nothing and to no one. It is those who harass and attack them who are the true threat, both to the safety of others and to the peace we have spent decades trying to achieve.
while claiming to be the victim, mosby.
It is a perverse statement, by dubious individuals or groups, that the poor right wing Jewish fundamentalist are just victimized by not being able to "visit and pray" on the grounds of a Mosque.
There is a reason why they meet resistance from the Muslims since there has been a constant onslaught against Al Asqua for some time now; as there has also been an onslaught against Palestinian Churches and Mosques elsewhere under Israeli control.
I have to applaud the poor victims that want nothing more than to push the Muslim Palestinians out of the way once more, as they have done everywhere that expansionist, apartheid Israel touches, so they can pray on what does not belong to them.
Three cheers for the poor hapless victims as they invade yet another dwindling shred of what was Palestine.
Whenever I read this "poor me victim" bullshit I often come away with the image of an Israeli crying foul to the world as he stomps of the neck of A Palestinian.
That pretty much sums up the illegal Israeli colonist movement.
That pretty much sums up the right wing religious Israeli zealot movement.
That pretty much sums up the present day Israeli apartheid movement.
And yes, all the above, and the morally enablers that make it happen, are offensive to anybody that has a conscience.
Pretty incredible how The Temple Mount is viewed as "the grounds of a mosque" by some folks.
It's very much a religious point of view and especially strange coming from an outsider to this , the poster neither being Jewish nor Muslim but pitting off one religion against another - and not being involved at all.
How does one pick one religion over the other?
in terms of us vs them: a rather clannish and outdated form of thinking.
While I view the world in terms of human rights, on this issue, they apparently believe that I am not allowed to voice my opinion of Israel and its practices of apartheid.
Which is very sad coming from them and their background.
I guess it is a level of empathy that I posess that they don't.
that religious fundamentalist jews see al asqua the foundation for the third temple.
But some just want to blow smoke up peoples asses instead, IMHO of course.
Those folks certainly ought not to be ignored.
Not sure what that has to do with referring to the Temple Mount as "the grounds of a mosque" which is ridiculous and, quite frankly, deeply offensive.
The Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism.
Can you not see how referring to it as just "the grounds of a mosque" is offensive?
You know how calling the West Bank "Judea and Samaria" is offensive?
It is sort of along those lines.
A mosque exists where fundamentalist jews, and their enablers, continually assault the Palestinian Muslims with their booga-booga bullshit.
One can call the West Bank anthing they want just as long as they're not actively colonizing it while they're screaming for a name change and annexation.
Israel has destroyed how many mosques now?
Israel has built hiw many synagogs now?
Do you think I and stupid? But it just has to keep in pushing with thus bullshit, right ober?
Thise are the facts. Be offended by them if you must.
I am trying to be reasonable but you don't seem interested.
Your characterization of one group's religion as "booga booga" while being respectful of another group's religion is quite telling.
That poster has an obsession about it ... One can only guess at motivation.
Last edited Tue Sep 22, 2015, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)
You just can't apparently handle it.
And the booga-booga bullshit is accurate as well. The USA has plenty of fundamentalists causing problems with their BBB as well.
Take a look at the fundies screaming about gay marriage: denying marriage certificates.
The fact is that Israeli fundamentalists, like Yehuda Glick, just can't leave it alone and want to create their version if heaven while steamrolling the muslims all they can.
The fact is the Israeli government seems to be working hand in hand with them when Knesset membersare now going to oray there.
These are all facts. And the fundies are fucking nutz.
Deal with it, ober. Just for once.
And for the record, you don't support Jews or Christians praying on the temple mount because of the presence of a mosque. Is that pretty much your position?
Why not do it at the Kotel and save the theatrics?
But the fundies just can't leave it alone. Right, mos?
Or may not pray .
The chutzpah of it...
way onto to worship.
The Glick Zionists have a million places to pray, but only want to prey upon one area in particular.
Do you support Glick zionism, king?
Who is he to tell any Jew they should stick to praying at the Western wall of the Temple Mount?
Some armchair "leaders of the struggle "now more Palestinian that's the Palestinians and more Muslim than the Muslims.... And everything is "Apartheid or Colonists " Israelis and now has the extreme Chutzpah to criticize Jews in their beliefs - on behalf of the Palestinians?
Since Glick zionism is all the rage with the fundamentalists, who proudly assault the Noble Sanctuary with the help of the IDF, I guess, IMHO, that he also believes that non-jews should just shut up and leave the assault to them?
Are you with or against rabbi yehuda glick, king?
But what I see coming from him, and others like him, is a constant aggressive fundamentalist attack on Muslims and Palestinians that tells me that he is not to be trusted.
Since he wants to build the third temple, he is definitely not to be trusted, and I can only imagine that this push for prayer on the Al Asqua mount is an affront for a more sinister attempt to destroy the mosque or push their way onto the mount in violation of the treaty with Jordan.
But what are treaties to scroungers like Glick: who turns zionism on it head and makes it into something foul?
So no. I don't believe that you have or should have a right to disrupt the peace when there are a million other placed to pray.
IMHO, what you are selling is tommyrot.
So who's more tolerant of the other?
You or Glick?
But thank you for defending the guy that wants to build the third temple.
Complete and utter disrespect for Jews and Judaism ( 12 Million and minority every single place in the world except Israel and maybe NYC )and complete reverence to to Islam and Muslims ( 2 Billion and majority in the ME)
Really oberliner......" Nothing " ....
The Temple Mount Bombers
18/09/04.....(notice date )
The Security Service is haunted by a terrible fear: that another Israeli Prime Minister will be assassinated. The extreme right-wing, which does not hide its admiration for Yigal Amir and his deed, harbors some who dream of a similar action. After all, if Amir succeeded in murdering the Oslo process, why shouldnt another Amir succeed in murdering the process of dismantling the settlements in the Gaza Strip?
But the Security Service also entertains an even greater fear: that a Jewish terror group will bomb the mosques on the Temple Mount .
Years ago, a Jewish underground organization was preparing to do exactly that. It was uncovered before it could carry out its plans. Now similar plots are afoot.
The Security Service believes that this action is intended to put an end to Ariel Sharon s disengagement plan. Bombing the al-Aqsa Mosque and/or the Dome of the Rock would inflame the whole Arab and Muslim world. It would cause profound upheavals, bring down Arab regimes, perhaps ignite a fundamentalist revolution throughout the region. In such a situation, who would think about evacuating settlements?.........
All this is true, but it does not touch the roots of the conspiracy. The bombing of the Haram al-Sharif mosques is an enterprise that goes well beyond topical issues it is a revolutionary act that would change the Jewish religion itself. From the point of view of the potential bombers, that is the main thing.
In Israel , Jewish history is divided into three houses, meaning three temples:
The First Temple was supposedly built by King Solomon in the tenth century BC and destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in the year 568 BC. The people of Judea were taken as captives to Babylon and about 50 years passed before they were allowed to return to Jerusalem and build the temple again.
The building of the Second Temple was finished in 516 BC. It was renovated and expanded by King Herod around 20 BC and destroyed by the Roman general Titus in 70 AC.
The Third Temple does not exist, but the new Jewish community that started to establish itself in Palestine in 1882 often calls itself the Third House. (When Moshe Dayan became hysterical at the beginning of the Yom Kippur war, he started lamenting the Destruction of the Third House). But this is only a symbolic term not one of the Zionist movements Founding Fathers nor any of the founders of the State of Israel , dreamed of building a new temple.
The reason for this is rooted in the events of 1934 years ago. When the Romans besieged Jerusalem , before the town fell and was destroyed, a leading rabbi, Yokhanan Ben-Zakkai, was smuggled out in a coffin. He approached the Roman commander and succeeded in getting permission from him to establish a Jewish religious center in Yavneh, between Jaffa and Asdod.
That was the beginning of a revolution in the Jewish religion.
The First House was a rather insignificant edifice. Contrary to the Bible, there is no historical evidence whatsoever that the empire of David and Solomon ever existed. Jerusalem was a mere hamlet, Judea a negligible entity. The Jewish religion as we know it came into being only in the Babylonian exile, and since then two thirds of the Jews (as they have been called since then) lived outside of Palestine .
The Second House, too, began as a rather insignificant affair, as attested by a contemporary prophet, but it spread in the course of time. King Herod, a great builder, tried to win the hearts of his detractors by converting the Temple into a magnificent structure.
Even before that, a priestly aristocracy had sprung up around the Temple and established its position in the Jewish community of Judea . Its political expression was the Sadducee party. Against it an opposition party, the Pharisees, was formed. They allowed for a much wider interpretation of the holy scriptures and believed in another world. At the time of this struggle, Jewish religious creativity flourished and the Bible was written. Since the priestly establishment was in power, the Temple plays a central role in the Bible. The ritual sacrifice of animals accompanied other practices connected with the Temple , the symbolic habitation of the Almighty.
Jesus, a Jewish revolutionary, rebelled against the commercialization of the Temple, as did many of the Pharisees. The Hasmonean dynasty, which was based on the priestly aristocracy, considered the Pharisees its enemies and executed many of them.
All this changed when the Temple was destroyed. The structure disappeared, together with the cult of sacrifices. The Jerusalemite aristocracy was eliminated, the priests lost everything. The Jewish religion changed course.
From then on, the rabbis, successors of the Pharisees, were dominant in the Jewish community and its religion. Long before the destruction of the Second Temple , the great majority of Jews lived outside Palestine . After the destruction (and the futile Bar-Kokhba rebellion of 135 AC), the Jewish community in Palestine dwindled. Jerusalem became a dream, and all significant events in the development of the Jewish religion occurred far away from there.
After the destruction of the temple, the Jewish religion became a matter of laws and commandments unconnected with any particular territory. The Land of Israel and Jerusalem became more symbols than a territorial reality. Judaism did not even demand that its believers make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, as Islam requires its believers to travel to Mecca at least once in their life.
Until the advent of modern Zionism, Jews never once tried to return en masse to Palestine indeed, this was explicitly forbidden by their religion. When half a million Jews were expelled from Catholic Spain in 1492, they dispersed throughout the Muslim Ottoman Empire , but only a few went to Palestine which, too, was an Ottoman province. Napoleons call to the Jews to set up a Jewish State in Palestine fell on deaf ears. The first proponents of the modern Zionist idea, long before the appearance of Theodor Herzl, were Englishmen and Americans motivated by Christian religious impulses.
During the last few centuries, European-American Judaism became more and more a religion imbued with a universal moral message. Jewish thinkers believed that it was the mission of the Jews to bring universal ethics to the nations of the world, seeing that as the real substance of Judaism.
Zionism came into being as a part of the nationalist revolution in Europe and as a reaction to its generally anti-Semitic character. It originated the theory that the Jews are a nation like other European nations, and that this nation must set up its own state in the country now called Palestine . Not by accident did the teachings of Herzl arouse the violent and vocal opposition of almost all the great rabbis of his time, whether Hassidim or their opponents the Mitnagdim, whether orthodox or reformist.
But when the Zionist community in Palestine established a state, something happened to Judaism there. The connection with the territory, the soil, changed the face of the religion, as it did to all other parts of national life. It is no exaggeration to claim that the Jewish religion in Israel underwent a mutation, which has become more and more extreme in recent years.
A religion with a universal message became a tribal cult. A religion of ethics became a religion of holy places. Yeshayahu Leibowitz, a Jew of the old kind, defined the religion of the settlers as a pagan, idolatory cult.
The new cult of the temple is the climax of this process. The practical preparations for the destruction of the mosques and the restoration of the temple, together with animal sacrifices and other temple cults, constitute a break with the last two thousand years of Jewish religion. It is a religious revolution of historic dimensions.
If this tendency becomes dominant in the State of Israel , it will not, I believe, lead to the building of the Third Temple but to the destruction of the Third House.
The Second Temple, together with the Jewish people in this country, came to a violent end because a small minority of fanatical Zealots, who were very similar to todays extremist settlers, came to power in the Jewish community and dragged it into a mad, hopeless war. That can happen again.
On the eve of Yom Kippur, something to think about.......
current government has abandoned that notion
Dayans most significant act on the Temple Mount, which sparked controversy over the years and was widely criticized, was to forbid Jewish prayer and worship there, unlike the arrangements that emerged at the Machpelah Cave in Hebron where there is also a functioning mosque.(7) Dayan decided to leave the mount and its management in the hands of the Muslim Wakf, while at the same time insisting that Jews would be able to visit it (but not pray at it!) without restriction. Dayan thought, and years later even committed the thought to writing, that since for Muslims the mount is a Muslim prayer mosque while for Jews it is no more than a historical site of commemoration of the past one should not hinder the Arabs from behaving there as they now do.(8) The Israeli defense minister believed that Islam must be allowed to express its religious sovereignty as opposed to national sovereignty over the mount; that the Arab-Israeli conflict must be kept on the territorial-national level; and that the potential for a conflict between the Jewish religion and the Muslim religion must be removed. In granting Jews the right to visit the mount, Dayan sought to placate the Jewish demands for worship and sovereignty there. In giving religious sovereignty over the mount to the Muslims, he believed he was defusing the site as a center of Palestinian nationalism.(9) - See more at: http://jcpa.org/al-aksa-is-in-danger-libel-temple-mount/#sthash.l1bZdFSx.dpuf
Just like in the West Bank, the Israelis have to just take what they want without question, but if you point that out then the "poor, poor me" song and dance starts up again.
in much the same manner as the settlements have been
You can't be serious.
Saw your post downthread, just so you know, ANYONE can pray at the kotel. It's not just for Jews.
Israel and Jews believe in religious pluralism unlike you,robot boy and Islam.
Is that a site you consult regularly?
It's a common ploy on the extreme right-wing to appeal to "equal rights", while it's actually only an appeal to nationalist rights. The problem is that Jerusalem is being Judaized and the Arab population is being pushed around. If all Jerusalemites had equal rights, there would be no real issue with letting Jews pray at the Temple Mount.
As it is now, the status quo must be upheld until Israel accepts that democracy applies to Palestinians too.
Folks should be allowed to pray quietly and respectfully at places that are important to their religious faiths as long as they don't interfere with others who wish to do the same.
This shouldn't even be controversial among reasonable people.
As it is now, allowing Jews to pray on the Temple Mount would only increase the inequality.
Can you imagine the Pope banning Muslims and Jews from Vatican city?
How does the act of sharing this site "increase inequality?" I don't see how Muslims are harmed by allowing Jews to peacefully pray at a site that both religions regard as holy. It seems like you're insinuating that the inequities faced by devout Muslims in Jerusalem could be offset by imposing discriminatory policies on religious Jews.
I also find this statement to be troubling, and even sort of bizarre. Jerusalem has always been a Jewish city. In fact, it is the quintessential Jewish city. It would be impossible to overstate the role it has played in both Jewish history and religion. The Temple Mount is not just the holiest site in Judaism, but has become increasingly significant since 1948, after Jordan's occupation of East Jerusalem, and the subsequent destruction of most of the area's ancient synagogues and Jewish historical sites. (The gravestones from the 3,000 year old Mount of Olives were repurposed to build latrines, for example.)
Can building a new synagogue on a site where an ancient one was once illegally razed really be considered "Judaizing?"
Are Jewish Israelis who live in the Jewish Quarter in EJ really "illegal colonists?" Can you colonize your own homeland?
The problem is that I see this demand as a very dangerous one, even possibly an attempt at crypto-fascism. I've seen this before, where the racists / nationalists demand "equal" rights in a very specific situation, but at the same time, they're completely against a system of equal rights based on the same principles for everyone.
This is not a call for equal rights, this is about Jewish rights and less rights for those who aren't Jewish. It's a little bit disconcerting that Israel supporters fall for this racist ploy, but they're not alone, unfortunately.
Just think about it for a moment - all those nationalists and right-wingers, who usually don't care about equal rights, why are they so obsessed with equal rights in this case?
As an American Jewish Zionist, and a modern liberal, I respect your answer to my question and I believe it has a lot of merit.
There's no doubt that the idea of "equal rights" has been co-opted by right wing radicals, particularly with regard to the al Aqaba/Temple Mount site, to further their own nefarious purposes. It's unfortunate that our ideals align in any respect, let alone this one.
That said, if our proposed system of sharing Jerusalem is ever to work we have to demonstrate that certain shared resources (and I'm not even talking about water here, but the numerous shared religious sites), are able to be reasonably shared without radical interjection occurring.
In this case, you're talking about the most relevant symbol of Jewish identity as it exists in east Jerusalem. It's not going to be easy to deny the rights of those who choose to worship there on the basis of what their leaders may or may not want to do. (Re: the construction of the third temple or any other idiotic idea.) You simply can't speak about the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians in Jerusalem without also admitting to the disenfranchisement of the Jews in the same way.
I'm really not sure what you mean wrt crypto-fascism
that it's the most important place in Judaism now within the past year or so as the Israeli government grows more Rightist, it's not enough now the Haram al Sharif has to be Israel's too, of course the claim will be made that Muslims will still be allowed to pray there despite the fact that Israel regularly restricts such worship based on age and gender
The Kotel is part of the Temple Mount , it's not seperate or divisible.
Israel already has prayer rights at the Temple Mount but now wants the part designated for Muslims too
It's holy to Islam but not THE holiest place.
Everything is political
lest they desecrate the Holy of Holy's , the exception would be the radical extreme right wing religious Zionist Rabbi's whom have emerged and are gaining increasing power and popularity, even in the strangest of places
It's the holiest place in Judaism orthodox or otherwise and this is not up for debate.
What's not debatable is that The Temple Mount is the number one Holiest place to the Jewish people who believe in that stuff...
The Temple Mount is not the number one holy place to the Palestinians or Muslims...
That number one Holy place is not in Israel and nor in Palestine.
And this religious stuff is really none of anybody else's business except for Muslims and Jews...
And I'm off to get ready for Yom Kippur dinner...
as it is Orthodox Rabbi's who are the ones making decisions. the more traditional centrist Rabbi's saying the Holy of Holy's should not be trodden on by Jews and the revisionist religious Zionist Rightwing such as Yitzhak Shapira who also gave us the Torat Hamelech (King's Torah) demanding a change
And the holiest place for the Palestinian people who believe it , is not anywhere near this place at all...
So now you're the judge of all? Nobody can hold a candle to you, dave.
Enjoy your dinner.
Sooner or later you'll be eating crow.
when it comes to judaism: orthodox or otherwise.
It appears that others, who are also jewish, are beneath contempt when it comes to your proclamations?
What's next? Are we in for some excommunications?
But I see you agree that it's none of anyone's business this religious stuff unless your one of the 2 groups involved.
You haven't been this wrong since you applauded the Tennessee, right wing-encrusted, legislature for banning BDS; since they are also a LGBTQ-hating organism of the GOP dunce squad.
Oh, the friends we keep.
My wife wants to know what I am laughing at.
All I can say is "a king of comedy."
Last edited Tue Sep 22, 2015, 06:33 AM - Edit history (1)
You can, of course, expect people to minimize, be apologists for and deflect from the violence. You know, cuz the Palestinians are throwing marshmellows at Jews. Sickening.
Edited to correct spelling error - I still have no idea how to spell marshmellows.