Palestinians will never have a state and will be ruled by Israel — says Israeli minister

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/palestinians-israeli-minister

Israel’s Deputy Defense Minister Eli Ben-Dahan said yesterday: “Palestinians have to understand they won’t have a state & Israel will rule over them.”

The report is in Hebrew from Udi Segal of Israeli Channel 10, as translated by David Sheen on Facebook and Emily Hauser.

Ben-Dahan referred to Palestinians as animals in 2013, according to the Times of Israel:

“To me, they are like animals, they aren’t human.”

This short-sighted arrogance will be Israel's undoing.

[oberliner]

1. Hamas leader says group will never recognize Israel

A large crowd of Palestinians cheered a Hamas leader's pledge on Tuesday never to recognize Israel and celebrated the Islamist movement's 23rd anniversary at a Gaza rally punctuated by sonic booms from Israeli jets.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, whose group runs the Gaza Strip, said the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) headed by Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas had made a "historic mistake" by recognizing Israel.

"We said it five years ago and we say it now ... we will never, we will never, we will never recognize Israel," Haniyeh told the gathering which some organizers said was attended by around 250,000 people.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/14/us-palestinians-hamas-idUSTRE6BD2XW20101214

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Israel’s Deputy Defense Minister Eli Ben-Dahan...

This is the bigoted face of Israeli government, ober, but you knew that...

Are you saying that Hamas = Israeli government?

[oberliner]

3. Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections of 2006

Last edited Wed Oct 14, 2015, 04:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Haniyeh became the Palestinian PM shortly thereafter.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

5. Thank you for pretending Israeli bigotry at the highest levels don't exist, ober.

I can always count on you to run interference against the painful truth of the apartheid state.

[oberliner]

35. They obviously do exist

The current Israeli administration is filled with RWers, reminiscent of the Bush/Cheney administration.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

38. And the past one, and the past one...

But please do bring up hamas again if you need to deflect.

[oberliner]

39. No, the current government is RW. The one before was not.

The one before that was. The one before that was not. And then the one before that was. And the two before that were not.

They tend to alternate in much the same way the US does.

Edit to add: Going by when the PM's change.

You wouldn't say Bush and Obama were the same, would you?

[Little Tich]

42. Huh? The last government that wasn't right-wing was the one with Ehud Barak that lost in 2001.

Have I missed something?

[oberliner]

43. Olmert was the PM before Netanyahu

He was PM from 2006 - 2009.

Kadima and Labor were the two biggest parties in the government during that time.

The Jewish Home and UTJ were not part of the governing coalition.

[Little Tich]

45. Kadima was a right-wing party that was an offshoot from Likud, and any labor left-wing politics

were easily offset by having Yisrael Beiteinu in the coalition.

So, only right-wing goverments since 2001...

[shira]

46. Kadima isn't anymore rightwing than the US Democratic Party....

Yet here you are on Democratic Underground.

[Little Tich]

48. I can't imagine how Kadima is even remotely similar to the US Democratic Party.

I'm trying to imagine Ariel Sharon as being an American Democrat, and I just can't.

No.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

60. So glad you accept both as right-wing.

Thank you.

[oberliner]

47. No it wasn't

It was a centrist party made up of people who left Likud specifically because it was right-wing.

In fact, the party was founded on the principle of removing all the settlements from Gaza and trying to negotiate an agreement with the Palestinians.

The second largest party in Olmert's government was Labor. Kadima and Labor has 48 seats between them.

Yisrael Beitenu was completely sidelined and, in fact, left the coalition in 2008 because their positions were being ignored.

[Little Tich]

49. Being one step to the left of Likud's extreme right doesn't really make you centrist.

Perhaps it's because I grew up with European politics that I define Kadima as right-wing. If Kadima was a political party in Europe, it would definitely be right-wing...

[geek tragedy]

52. So the argument is that Ariel Sharon was not a rightwinger? nt

[oberliner]

54. Sharon was a right-winger

Fortunately, towards the end of his life Sharon was able to see the light with respect to removing settlements from Gaza even as his right-wing allies urged him not to.

Olmert was not a right-winger - he was a centrist. Certainly compared to Netanyahu.

[shira]

50. Ollmert and Livni are not significantly different from US Democrats....

The majority of Israelis are far more liberal than Americans. Jews have been overwhelmingly liberal/progressive & have voted that way for the past century. It's no secret America's Jews are more liberal than any other ethnic group. Israeli Jews aren't any different.

The haters on the Right believe the Jews are are Leftists & Socialists, while the haters on the Left believe Jews to be Rightwing Capitalists.

Hate blinds.

[Little Tich]

53. I'm not to keen on discussing the political attitudes of Jews,

but even I have heard that American Jewry is more progressive than their Israeli counterpart.

Apart from that, while I do believe that both Livni and Olmert are pretty decent for being Israeli politicians, they are by no means more to the left than Sharon.

[shira]

57. I don't see why not since the Jewish state is the topic here 24/7

The only reason it appears American Jews are more progressive than their Israeli counterparts is because American Jews aren't constantly under attack like Jews are in Israel. Any people under constant terror attacks will appear more "hawkish" than those who who don't face that threat daily.

[Little Tich]

62. The reason why I don't want to discuss Jewish political attitudes is because it's a slippery slope

towards anti-Semitism.

It's almost impossible to discuss attitudes of groups of people without reverting to stereotypes, especially if those attitudes are seen as negative in some way. I don't do Jewish stereotypes, so I'd rather stick to discussing political parties and those who represent them, and not the groups of people who support them.

[shira]

64. And yet, Mondoweiss does Jewish political stereotyping 24-7....

And you don't have a problem with that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. "like Jews are in Israel"

Perhaps if the Israeli government, and 500k plus illegal colonists with IDF help, weren't constantly fu@king the Palestinian people the "Jews in Israel" wouldn't have to worry so much.

[azurnoir]

31. There were no Palestinian legislative elections of 2008

unless of course they were held in secret

[oberliner]

34. Oops - 2006

I'll correct it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

4. Don’t go to Israel - ANC

http://beta.iol.co.za/news/politics/dont-go-to-israel---anc-1928619

Johannesburg - The ANC’s National General Council recommended on Sunday that travel to Israel be discouraged unless it promotes solidarity with the Palestinian struggle.

There was strong consensus on this issue within the ruling party, and this is a position articulated by previous cabinet ministers met in the past with a barrage of calls from Zionist organisations for their resignation.

The positions taken by the ANC on international relations inform South Africa’s foreign policy, and are supposed to guide foreign policy formulation.
---
Senior ANC leaders have criticised Members of Parliament and business figures for travelling to Israel recently, deeming it opportunistic given the fact that many struggle stalwarts see Israel’s apartheid state as worse than that experienced in South Africa.

[oberliner]

7. ANC factions sacrificing citizens' rights for anti-Israel agenda

Regarding how South African Jews should react to ANC-driven boycott measures, Bapela said that they needed to understand that this was not against them as individuals but against the policies of “their government”. It was a dead giveaway, of course, and Zev Krengel, president of the SA Jewish Board of Deputies, made no attempt to hide his anger.

“Don’t say ‘their’ government. I am a South African, I have one government and my leader is President Zuma. That is what you are trying to do — the whole dual loyalty thing. You say that you are not anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic, but your remarks and your actions are,” Krengel told the minister.

Bapela will no doubt insist that his was just a slip of the tongue, but in light of what has gone before, it looks more likely to have been a Freudian slip.

In truth, there would appear to be a real problem regarding the attitude of certain ANC leaders towards the whole Middle East question. It is one that brooks no dissent against their hardline anti-Israel notions, and in which Jews who express dissent are seen not as fellow South Africans holding a different viewpoint but as an alien, problem element in the country that needs to be dealt with.

http://www.rdm.co.za/politics/2015/09/09/anc-factions-sacrificing-citizens-rights-for-anti-israel-agenda

[BillZBubb]

6. As always, Ober, you try to change the subject!

Your act is getting old.

[oberliner]

8. What's the subject?

That right-wingers say right wing things?

The Jewish Home party in Israel is as far RW as you can get over there.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

9. "The Jewish Home party in Israel is as far RW as you can get over there."

It is the face of Israeli government, ober, but you shabbily do everything to try and avoid that.

[oberliner]

11. The Jewish Home party won 8 seats

In the last Palestinian election, Hamas won 74 seats.

You do the math.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

12. Let me type this again for you, and I'll type very clearly.

Israel’s >>>Deputy Defense Minister<<< Eli Ben-Dahan...


You do the math, if you can. He's in government.

[oberliner]

17. Hamas rules Gaza - Haniyeh is the leader of Hamas

When it comes to the Palestinians in Gaza, Haniyeh is the government.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

20. I'm not sure why you keep on brining up Hamas since I don't support them.

Strange how you desperately need to deflect attention away from Israel.

[shira]

22. The difference is Hamas is 100x worse than Israel's rightwingers....

The Palestinians elected them & arguably still prefer them over the PA.

But those who can't see things clearly when it comes to I/P couldn't care less about that. If Hamas, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Hezbollah, and friends were on US borders and constantly on the attack, the US would be 10x more rightwing than Israel.

Now this is usually the part where you quietly concede the point by ignoring it & you start your daily ranting about BDS, apartheid, etc...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. And the "Israel us not as bad as some other assholes"

excuse raised its ugly head once more.

Thank you for the failed attempt to distract from right wing Israel.

The OP still stands while you straw man has fallen over and is face fiwn in a ditch.

[oberliner]

24. Israelis and Palestinians both seem to support right-wing leadership

It is quite depressing.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. Hamas isn't a Democracy whereas

Israel is pretending to be one.

[Mosby]

28. hamas participated in the '06 elections

Last edited Wed Oct 14, 2015, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

People call that democracy.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. Deomocracy is ongoing. Not just once.

Are you actually arguing for Hamas now?

[azurnoir]

32. .......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134115125#post31

[shira]

40. Not some other 'assholes', but all other Western nations that Israel....

....can be compared to.

All.

There is no other nation on the planet that would be any more liberal or progressive than Israel given the same circumstances (hostility & terror attacks against it since its founding).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. HAHAHAHAHA! I'm not sure if you are completely out of your depth or are just feigning naiveté.

(1)There is no other nation on the planet that would be any more liberal or progressive than Israel given the same circumstances (hostility & terror attacks against it since its founding).

England has come to mind WRT the troubles in Northern Ireland. Things seem to be working out there, IMHO, since the Belfast Agreement.

Not to mention Europe as a whole has gotten over WWI, WWII and the Cold War, not incarcerating the German or Italian populations into penned cities but building them anew out of the rubble, so I guess your expert analysis has tripped on it's own historical ineptitude and fallen face first into a ditch...once again

But let's break down your short, yet uneducated, retort, and see what country Israel now realistically resembles from the past 20th century.


Right wing Israel uses the Palestinians, Arabs, Bedouin, Liberals as scapegoats.

Israel is responsible for the forced removal or fleeing of a wartime population and flat out refuses them the right of return saying, "How can we be Israel if we let them come back?" Israel depends on keeping the Palestinians from returning home.

Israel confiscates land outside of its borders, for greater empire, using the dubious term of state land and then in turn lets its illegal colonistas squat on that land: turning it into a settlement.

Israel harasses the local Palestinian population with petite pogroms: burning, slashing, bulldozing anything that stands in its way.

Israel forcibly moves populations within its own borders for their own good, and IMHO, because they don't belong to the right group.


So which despotic country of the 20th century an I referring to?

There's more than one, but one realized that it had to give it up.

[shira]

44. England and Europe have been fighting in other nations thousands of miles away...

....killing millions who have posed zero threat to European citizens. There's even the NATO bombing of Kosovo. One can only imagine Iraq, Afghanistan, or even Yugoslavia behing behind attacks on Europeans (the softest targets like elderly, women, children) in their capital cities and what the response would be. The carnage would be at least 100x worse than anything Israel has ever been associated with

All clear-minded people know very well what the UK did in Germany at the end of the war (Dresden as one example, but also the ethnic cleansing of 10's of millions of Germans from the Sudetenland, which killed millions of them in the process). Israel doesn't come close to that in a millenium.

That you can even compare Irish terror attacks to those suffered by Jews the past 100 years even before 1948 is not just ridiculous but shows gross ignorance. The Irish never called for the genocide of the British people, nor did they deliberately target kindergartens as a matter of policy. The Brits would have gone full-on postal and ape shit had that happened.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. "killing millions " Bullshit. Once again, you can't even complete a sentence without your argument

stumbling off the road and falling into a ditch.

One can only imagine Iraq, Afghanistan, or even Yugoslavia behing behind attacks on Europeans...

And none of those have either massive occupation forces or illegal colonistas from their home countries squatting in these foreign lands.

You should really check the pulse on your argument since it appears to have ODed on crazy pills.

All clear-minded people know very well what the UK did in Germany at the end of the war...

And yet England did not colonize Germany. They are allies now. All forgiven. Nazis dead.

The Irish never called for the genocide of the British people...

But the British in ye olden ays practiced genocide on Ireland WRT the potato famine: which killed many and drove many to America. But there is good will now.

Your argument will never be Mensa worthy so just give it up.

[shira]

58. Over 1 million dead from Iraq alone. And you pretend Israel is 100x worse....

And once again - the occupation and "colonistas" had nothing to do with Palestinians attacking and killing Jews decades before 1948 under Hitler's Mufti friend and ally.

Same motivation for killing Jews now as then.

If that's not it - then tell us all when that motivation changed. From hating Jews and wanting them all dead to only fighting for their freedom in their own state alongside Israel.....

When did that happen? It never did. Not even the BDS'ers want Palestinians living in their own country alongside the Jewish state, but rather ON TOP and in place of the Jewish state - same as 100 years ago.

Your attempts here are pathetic as you don’t have a rational, legal, historical or frankly moral leg to stand on.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. England and Europe are not responsible for 1,000,000 Iraqi dead. You're off the deep end once again.

George Bush and PNAC are responsible for that.

And once again - the occupation and "colonistas" had nothing to do with Palestinians attacking and killing Jews decades before 1948 under Hitler's Mufti friend and ally.

Same motivation for killing Jews now as then.

You seem obsessed with this Hitler Guy and the evil Arabs. It's pretty bigoted on your part...almost as those who hate Jews for all their imagined conspiracies.

If that's not it - then tell us all when that motivation changed. From hating Jews and wanting them all dead to only fighting for their freedom in their own state alongside Israel.....

Your phantoms and bigotry have gotten the better of you. All you see are Jew-hating Arabs (your words frankly) while you continuously make excuses for keeping the Palestinian people down.

When did that happen? It never did. Not even the BDS'ers want Palestinians living in their own country alongside the Jewish state, but rather ON TOP and in place of the Jewish state - same as 100 years ago.

Again, your fevered delusions have made you appear foolish to the adults in the room. And at this point in time it is Israel that is engineering a one state solution or a ghetto system for the Palestinians.

Does that make you feel warm all over?

Your attempts here are pathetic as you don’t have a rational, legal, historical or frankly moral leg to stand on.

On your word? You're simply priceless, my dear.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

59. Ah, Hamas --Israel's baby.

They complete each other.

Others doomed to watch that dance.

[oberliner]

13. Why does Google translate it this way?

אלי בן דאהן סגן שר הביטחון אומר שהפיתרון הוא שהפלסטינים יבינו שלא תהיה להם מדינה וישראל תשלוט בהם

Eli Ben- Dahan deputy defense minister says that the solution is that the Palestinians understand that there will be a state and Israel would control them.

Seems strange that Google translate would translate "won't" as "will".

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. Since google isn't human it can make mistakes. Since Israel’s Deputy Defense Minister Eli Ben-Dahan

is a right wing human bigot I would expect him to make the mistakes of arrogance and prejudice.

But those that attempt to explain away the arrogance and prejudice of the present Israeli apartheid machine, I would suggest heir actions are deliberate and malicious.

[oberliner]

15. You are probably right

Weird mistake, though, but I do agree that it probably is an error. I wish Google translate was more reliable so that we wouldn't have to rely on other folks doing the translating (possibly with agendas).

In any case, that he would say something like that is not exactly news as it is in fact the policy of the Jewish Home party that no Palestinian state be established so I would expect this person to say this sort of thing.

Depressing that people like this are in the government.

Not quite comparable to the Hamas legislators who run Gaza, but still pretty bad.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. "Not quite comparable to the Hamas legislators who run Gaza..."

It's far worse since this is the face of a supposed Democracy.

You do understand that everybody can read how you are comparing Israeli government to that of Hamas: a terrorist organization?

[oberliner]

18. Well I'm glad you think Hamas is a terrorist organization

Some people think they are the legitimately elected Palestinian leadership who were driven out of the West Bank by a US-sponsored coup.

One can find such sentiments on websites like Mondoweiss.

Since we agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization maybe you can address the fact that Palestinians voted overwhelming in favor of said terrorist organization in their legislative elections.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

19. That has always been my position. I also see the Israeli government as corrupt

and sanctioning state-sponsored terrorism on a daily basis.

Hence the OP.

[oberliner]

25. Fair enough

It doesn't bode well for any kind of peace between Israelis and Palestinians though.

[Igel]

21. Far from fluent.

But I don't see the negation.

I see a word that could possibly be taken as having negation, but it means "to them." Not "won't be."

Meh.

[oberliner]

26. Interesting

Thanks for sharing that.

[azurnoir]

30. what difference does it make to the statements meaning? None that I can see despite the bolding

אלי בן דאהן סגן שר הביטחון אומר שהפיתרון הוא שהפלסטינים יבינו שלא תהיה להם מדינה וישראל תשלוט בהם

Eli Ben- Dahan deputy defense minister says that the solution is that the Palestinians understand that there will be a state and Israel would control them.

[oberliner]

33. There will be a state vs. There won't be a state

Aren't the meanings of those statements the opposite of one other?

[azurnoir]

37. ut said there'd be a state controlled by Israel ie no state

[geek tragedy]

51. If Israel controls it, it's not a state.

As Netanyahu said about a decade ago:

Semantics don’t matter. If Palestinian sovereignty is limited enough so that we feel safe, call it fried chicken.

[oberliner]

55. I'm not really arguing with that

I just thought it was odd that Google translated it as "will" instead of "won't" - which are generally considered to mean the opposite of one another.

[bumprstickr]

36. 2 relevant points

First, Israel will rule over them clearly means that there will be no independent State of Palestine. The only way to take this statement.

Second, "to me, they are like animals, they aren't human" tells me all I need to know about the mindset of this government minister.

Refusal to allow a state and considering people as less than human is the sign of a state that will never allow peace, or a settlement based on law.