Jordanians urge Amman to scrap peace treaty with Israel

[oberliner]

Thousands of Jordanians took to the streets, calling on the government to scrap its peace treaty with Israel, which they accuse of violations in Jerusalem's flashpoint Al-Aqsa Mosque compound.

Demonstrations broke out on Friday in several cities after weekly Muslim prayers, with around 5,000 rallying in Amman.

"No Zionist embassy on Jordanian soil," chanted the demonstrators.

They demanded the cancellation of the 1994 Jordan-Israel peace treaty, carrying signs that said "scrapping the Wadi Araba treaty is the response" to Israeli "violations" against Palestinians in Jerusalem.

"The land is ours, Jerusalem is ours and Allah is with us," read another banner.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/jordanians-urge-amman-scrap-peace-treaty-israel-151016153312344.html

[geek tragedy]

1. What, they don't trust Netanyahu? nt

[oberliner]

2. What does "Jerusalem is Ours" mean coming from Jordanians?

Why would Jerusalem be theirs?

[geek tragedy]

3. They're very possibly Palestinians.

I'm guessing by "Jerusalem is ours" they mean the same thing as when the Israelis say it.

[oberliner]

6. Is the PM of Turkey a Palestinian?

I don't think he is, but he has made the same statement.

[geek tragedy]

7. So has Chuck Schumer.

The Palestinian people still don't believe in a Jewish state, in a two state solution... They don't believe in the Torah. They don't believe in King David. So, they don't think it's our land..."[136]

Your point being?

[oberliner]

8. Muslims vs. Jews or Palestinians vs. Israelis?

With respect to Jerusalem, it seems to be the former rather than the latter for many.

[geek tragedy]

9. Meh to the whole thing.

Dirty tribal land wars in another continent shouldn't be a political issue here.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. Perhaps Jerusalem should be an international city.

[oberliner]

24. Have you read the Geneva Initiative?

If so, do you agree with its vision for Jerusalem?

It seems pretty reasonable to me.

[karynnj]

29. Well, Pre 1967 war, in which country did Jerusalem exist?

Could the people shouting that be Palestinians?

[oberliner]

30. It was occupied by Jordan

Are they calling for a return to the Jordanian occupation of East Jerusalem?

[azurnoir]

4. The Israeli's are taking full advantage of the crisis in Jordan concerning ISIS

knowing full well Jordan already has it's hands ful, it timing of this take over of the Haram al Sharif/Temple MOunt is unmistakable

[oberliner]

19. You don't think Jews should be allowed on the Temple Mount?

Muslims only?

[azurnoir]

20. well I think Ariel Sharon showed us all how well it works

all depends on what one wishes for

[shenmue]

5. They still want

to "push the Jews into the sea," like Arafat said.

[azurnoir]

11. quoting David Horowitz on DU ?

http://www.fightthebias.com/Resources/Rec_Read/mid_east_conflict.htm

[grossproffit]

12. "From the Rivers to the Sea" isn't anything new.

"from the rivers to the sea, Palestine will be free"

[youtube]

[/youtube]

The meaning is crystal clear.

[azurnoir]

13. I've read the early Zionists in Palestine envisioned that Eretz Yisrael would be from the river

to the sea - but the river in mind was the Euphrates

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

15. One has to have priorities.

[oberliner]

17. Where have you read this?

Please provide a citation.

[azurnoir]

21. are you claiming it's false?

well we'll start here if you want more I'll gladly supply it

[oberliner]

23. You said that you read about this somewhere

I'd like to read whatever it is you read.

Can you provide a link or the name of a book

[azurnoir]

25. I showed you what should be enough are you saying you do not know that emblem?

[King_David]

26. Can you read that? nt

[oberliner]

28. So when you say "you read somewhere" you are talking about Wikipedia?

Because that appears to be the source of the image.

[azurnoir]

31. Let's start here but I'll give you more a read through though shows how little has changed

Ze'ev Jabotinsky was born 1880 in Odessa-Tsarist Russia to a liberal Jewish
family. He is considered to be the most important right-wing Revisionist Movement
member (which eventually evolved into the post-1948 Herut Party, and later
became the Likud Party), who provided the ideological map for its future policies.
At an early stage Jabotinsky was involved in organizing a militia to defend the Jews of
Odessa, and in 1903 he went to Kishinev to cover the aftermath of its infamous pogrom. He worked as a journalist in Rome and Vienna
and at an early age began to devote his outstanding skills as a writer, orator,
translator, and polemicist for the Zionist cause. During WWI, Jabotinsky had promoted the establishment of Jewish fighting
units within the Allied armies and was one of the founders of the Haganah (the
Zionists paramilitary militia-army before the 1948 war).

Jabotinsky protested the exclusion of Transjordan from British Mandate
Palestine, and in response he established the Revisionist Party in 1925 (so named because it
sought to "revise" the terms of the Mandate, particularly to provide
for the re-inclusion of Transjordan in Mandatory Palestine). He also set up the
party's youth movement, Betar, which was characterized by militaristic, some
might say fascist, appearance (dark brown uniforms), activities (parade ground
drill) with firearm exercises, slogans, and a militaristic ideology and structure. Jabotinsky
admired Mussolini (see photo), and
his movement repeatedly sought affiliation with and
assistance from Rome. Jabotinsky version of Zionism was single minded, exclusivist,
and rigid. He
died in America in 1940 in a car accident on a mission to organize Jewish participation in the
Allied war effort.

Jabotinsky was an exceptionally talented and versatile man, an original thinker
and ideologue, and a powerful political leader. His followers worshiped him (and
still do today), while
his enemies detested him with equal passion. Jabotinsky was one of the earliest advocates of
using force to curb Palestinian nationalism, which he eloquently
articulated in his IRON WALL
article that was published in Ha'aretz Daily in 1923. He stated:

".... Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that
is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be
powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long
as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of
us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely
because they are not a rubble but a living people. And a living people will be
ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting
rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan
'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred
to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for
compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters,
such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national
rights."

Contrary to the mainstream Zionist leadership, Jabotinsky publicly spoke his
mind, and in our opinion, he also strategically influenced the conduct of the
Zionist movement towards the Palestinian people. From the start, he criticized
the ideologues in the Zionist leadership (such as Ben-Gurion and Moshe Sharett)
who thought that Palestinians could be bribed into selling their country and
rights. Jabotinsky thought that Jewish justice overrides Palestinian rights, and he was
the first to warn the Zionist Movement that the clash between Jewish and
Palestinian nationalisms is inevitable, and it should not be ignored. On the
other hand, he advocated the use of force to curb the inevitable clash and to
keep it at bay, instead of negotiating with the Palestinian people to resolve this issue. In that respect he stated in 1923

The Arabs loved their country as much as the Jews did. Instinctively,
they understood Zionist aspirations very well, and their decision to resist them
was only natural ..... There was no misunderstanding between Jew and Arab, but
a natural conflict. .... No Agreement was possible with the Palestinian Arab;
they would accept Zionism only when they found themselves up against an 'iron wall,' when they realize they had no alternative but to accept Jewish settlement."
(America And The Founding Of Israel,
p.
90)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story640.html

[oberliner]

33. That is one hell of a website

What an interesting choice for a source.

[azurnoir]

32. and here

Under the Balfour Declaration, Britain promised the Zionists both Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan). Pressure from Arab countries forced Britain to renege on the promise of Transjordan in 1922. The Zionist movement's mainstream, led by David Ben-Gurion and Chaim Weizman, accepted Britain's decision. Later, they agreed to accept British decisions to limit Jewish immigration into Palestine.

This provoked a major split in the Zionist movement as a minority, led by Polish writer Vladimir Jabotinsky, protested Ben-Gurion's and Weizman's realpolitik. Jabotinsky argued that Zionists should insist on capturing "both sides of the Jordan" and refuse to abide by any limitations the British imposed.

To placate Arab opinion, the World Zionist Organization called its colony in Palestine "a homeland." But Jabotinsky insisted that Zionists speak openly of their goal to build a Jewish state in Palestine. Jabotinsky's program amounted to a call for revising the World Zionist Organization's strategy, thereby earning his followers the description "Revisionists" in the Zionist movement.

Jabotinsky wrote bluntly in his 1923 essay "The Iron Wall":

We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force, which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.

http://socialistworker.org/2010/06/10/zionisms-colonial-project

[oberliner]

34. Another interesting source choice

It seems that you are relying on websites who make no bones about the fact that they aren't too keen on Zionists.

If I wanted to learn about the history Palestinian nationalism, I wouldn't start with sites who were unapologetically unfriendly to such an idea to get my information.

[azurnoir]

35. and just for fun more recently like 2009

Documents that prove Jewish ownership of property purchased in Jordan during the Ottoman rule do not have any legal standing, a Jordanian minister said in an attempt to allay public concerns over a plan by an extremist right-wing Israeli group to expand settlements beyond the West Bank, into Jordan."Selling lands to foreigners is governed by a strict and meticulous legislation," the minister of state for media affairs and communications, Nabil Sharif, said.

The minister's statements come as The Israel Land Fund, which has bought land and dozens of houses in occupied Palestinian territory in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, announced plans to bring Jews from European countries to purchase Jewish property in Jordan since the government here does not allow Israelis to buy property."There are thousands of Jewish properties in Jordan which were purchased during the Ottoman era and under the British mandate" which ended when Jordan became independent in 1946, the fund's chairman Arieh King told Agence France-Presse.

"We have records of the ownership," he added. Jordan sequestered most Jewish-owned land following the creation of the Jewish state in 1948.But according to Mr Sharif, a land settlement law enacted in Transjordan in 1933 cancelled all ownerships registered under Ottoman rule. "The documents do not have any legal value," he said.Jordan and Israel are bound by a peace treaty signed in 1994 and there are no articles in Jordanian law that ban Israelis from purchasing land.

Foreigners are allowed to purchase land in the kingdom within specially-zoned areas, provided that their home country permits reciprocal treatment. Israel, however, does not allow Jordanians to buy property within its borders."We are [confident] that our laws are capable of confronting any situation," Mr Sharif said.Foreigners who seek to purchase land in Jordan require several official approvals, starting with the ministry of finance and ending with the security services.

For analysts, attempts by the Israel Land Fund to purchase property in Jordan did not come as a surprise. "It reflects the right-wing Likud policy to [solving] the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at the expense of Jordan," said Adnan Hayajneh, a professor of political science at the Hashemite University in Zarqa. Others see it as part of an Israeli project to control Jordan. "This is part of Israel's interests ? Israelis believe from a religious point of view that Jordan is part of their country," said Badi al Rafiah, head of the anti-normalisation committee at the Jordan Professional Associations.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/jordan-hits-back-over-jewish-land-claims

[Israeli]

36. You are denying Revisionist Zionism based on sources ??

That is utterly ridiculous oberliner and devious to say the least .

How are these sources ?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Revisionist_Zionism.html

Irgun Tz'va'i Leumi (Etzel)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/irguntoc.html

Lohamei Herut Yisrael (Lehi)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lehi.html

Lehi's goals were maximalist: conquest and liberation of Eretz Israel; war against the British Empire; complete withdrawal of Britain from Palestine; and establishment of a "Hebrew kingdom from the Euphrates to the Nile."

The leader as a poet: the political and ideological poetry of Ze'ev Jabotinsky

This article analyses Ze'ev Jabotinsky's Zionist ideology as expressed in his political poetry. It includes inter alia lessons from the pogroms, the need for emergence of ‘a new Jew’ who would show by his conduct that he is ‘a son of kings’, who is ready to either die or capture the mountain, believing in the Jewish national right over the Land of Israel on both banks of the Jordan, as well as in the rights of its Arab and Christian inhabitants. These and other ideological principles appear in his poetry alongside a war of words with the Zionist left.

Source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13537121.2014.889890?mobileUi=0&journalCode=fisa20


The Evolution of the Israeli Right: From Jabotinsky to Begin to Netanyahu

Published on Jan 30, 2015
On August 23, 2012 at the Luxe Hotel Sunset in Los Angeles, Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors presented an evening devoted to exploring the historical roots of the Israeli right, from Vladimir Jabotinsky to Menachem Begin to Benjamin Netanyahu, and a discussion of its current relevance to what is happening in Israel today.

Vladimir Jabotinsky was a journalist, essayist, translator, author, novelist, orator, military leader, and head of the Revisionist Zionist movement, which attempted to return Zionism in the 1920s and 1930s to its Herzlian roots. Menachem Begin was one his principal followers, the head of Jabotinsky’s youth movement in Poland and later the leader of its military wing, the Irgun. Benjamin Netanyahu’s father was Jabotinsky’s personal secretary, and Prime Minister Netanyahu has frequently cited Jabotinsky as an influence on him in considering the current threats against Israel.
Understanding the current status of the right in Israel requires an understanding of the connections – and also the differences -- between these three historic figures. It may also provide some insights into the approach of the current Israeli government as it faces a continuing existential threat.

[Israeli]

39. So no problem with my sources then oberliner ????

or this ....and establishment of a "Hebrew kingdom from the Euphrates to the Nile."
....your not denying it now ??

[Israeli]

41. kick ...

[Israeli]

42. bump

[geek tragedy]

16. How is that different than the Israeli claim

that the West Bank is "our land?"

[oberliner]

18. How do you feel about people who make that claim?

Presumably the same way you feel about those in the video?

[geek tragedy]

22. As an American I resent being forced to care. nt

[King_David]

27. As an American who spends an inordinate amount of time in this group

I would say you care very much.

Much more than the average American who probably doesn't care at all ( unless they are actually involved in this like say Jews or Muslims for example)

And your caring seems completely voluntarily.

[geek tragedy]

37. Support for Israel is a key part of the neocon

agenda. It's how they rope a lot of otherwise liberal Democrats into supporting military adventures in the Middle East.

This group is full of examples of so-called liberals who talk like Rush Limbaugh when the subject is Arabs and Muslims.

[King_David]

38. Including Hillary and Bernie ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. Phone home, dave.

[Little Tich]

10. The protests were organized by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Apparently these are interesting times for the Muslim Brotherhood:

Jordan’s Muslim Brotherhood at crossroads
Source: Middle East Eye, 17 July 2015

Once Jordan's most organised and strongest opposition group, the Muslim Brotherhood finds itself divided - why?

AMMAN – Seventy years after its foundation, Jordan’s Muslim Brotherhood stands at a crossroads after an unprecedented rift has split the group.

Once Jordan’s most organised and strongest opposition, the brotherhood is now divided into two groups: a recently registered “charitable society” and the original organisation which has been declared illegal by the Jordanian authorities.

A 1946 cabinet decision licensed Jordan’s MB as an offshoot of Egypt’s Muslim Brothers. But recently, the Jordanian government started started sending messages to the group to “correct” their “legal status”.

In March, Abdul Majid Thunaibat, one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, registered a new group called the Muslim Brotherhood “society”, as a “national” charitable organisation that is “dedicated to national affairs”.

Read more: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jordan-s-muslim-brotherhood-crossroad-1662666680