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grossproffit

(5,591 posts)
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 12:24 PM Oct 2015

Pope says denying Israel’s right to exist is anti-Semitism

[quote]

Pope Francis marked the 50th anniversary of the turning point in the Catholic Church’s relations with Jews on Wednesday with a sharp condemnation of anti-Semitism, saying attacks on Israel’s right to exist were a form of hatred.

To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism,” Francis told a delegation from the World Jewish Congress (WJC). “There may be political disagreements between governments and on political issues, but the State of Israel has every right to exist in safety and prosperity.”

Francis called for greater interfaith collaboration in the face of religious extremism. He devoted his usual Wednesday general audience to explaining to the Catholic faithful in St. Peter’s Square the importance of the “Nostra Aetate,” or “In Our Time” declaration, which revolutionized the church’s relations in particular with Jews.

The statement was one of the most important documents to emerge from the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that brought the church into the modern world. It said Christ’s death could not be attributed to Jews as a whole, recognized the shared spiritual patrimony between Christians and Jews and decried all forms of anti-Semitism. [/quote]

[url]http://www.timesofisrael.com/pope-says-denying-israels-right-to-exist-is-anti-semitism/[/url]

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Pope says denying Israel’s right to exist is anti-Semitism (Original Post) grossproffit Oct 2015 OP
Jews have a right to self-determination, just like everyone else does. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #1
That's not what anti-Zionists or BDS'ers argue. Glad to see you're a Zionist. shira Oct 2015 #14
Thst's not what gt wrote. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #24
Hard to believe that anyone could disagree with this FBaggins Oct 2015 #2
no state has a right to exist. the only right that exists is the right of people to choose their geek tragedy Oct 2015 #4
There's a difference between residency and citizenship n/t FBaggins Oct 2015 #6
yes and no. immigrants from other countries who have citizenship geek tragedy Oct 2015 #7
It doesn't matter whether or not they have citizenship elsewhere FBaggins Oct 2015 #9
You're claiming Jews have a right to create an apartheid state. They don't. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #10
When you can only debate a strawman... You implicitly admit the weakness of your position. FBaggins Oct 2015 #11
No, I unpacked the logical underpinning of your argument pretty well. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #12
Israel has already annexed territory & offered everyone there citizenship shira Oct 2015 #15
They will have to do the same in the West Bank nt geek tragedy Oct 2015 #18
Israel offered all of the Palestinians residing in Jerusalem full Israeli citizenship? azurnoir Oct 2015 #19
"Offered citizenship" isn't exactly the term I would use... Little Tich Oct 2015 #22
What about acknowledging the state of Israel and criticizing its policies? DetlefK Oct 2015 #3
No. I'm an American and criticize some of our polices but I'm not anti-American. grossproffit Oct 2015 #5
When necessary, yes. Bok_Tukalo Oct 2015 #8
OBAMA: DENYING ISRAEL’S RIGHT TO EXIST AS A JEWISH HOMELAND IS ANTI-SEMITIC shira Oct 2015 #13
However, denying that the land controlled by Israel is the homeland of the Palestinians is also Little Tich Oct 2015 #17
No country has a right to exist. Little Tich Oct 2015 #16
Sorry... that's nonsensical FBaggins Oct 2015 #20
Oh dear. Little Tich Oct 2015 #21
No other nation on the planet has its very existence threatened like Israel.... shira Nov 2015 #23
"There are no other nations being asked to negotiate their sovereignty like Israel." R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #25
Right - like one state, Jews as a minority. n/t shira Nov 2015 #27
Like one apartheid state: Israelis get to illegally spread out and rule over R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #28
So since you believe 2 states is dead, what then becomes of Israel? shira Nov 2015 #29
Israel may well be the author of its own demise. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #33
You didn't answer the question, which is not surprising.... shira Nov 2015 #34
Perhaps the scales will fall from your eyes one day, shira. I doubt it though. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #35
So where is Czechoslovakia these days? n/t Crunchy Frog Nov 2015 #26
Israel is adamant that it won't become Czechoslovakia during WW2. n/t shira Nov 2015 #30
Yeah, but maybe Czechoslovakia in the 1990's. Crunchy Frog Nov 2015 #31
Israel's enemies (the unhinged critics) want Israel = Czech. from WW2. n/t shira Nov 2015 #32
You really should get in control of those phantoms shira. They oft so lead you astray. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2015 #36
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
1. Jews have a right to self-determination, just like everyone else does.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 12:37 PM
Oct 2015

It is anti-Semitism to point that out.

As far as denying the right of any state to exist, meh meh meh. Every right of the state is derivative of those governed by the state.

States do not have an independent right to exist. Israelis have a right to a state, but Israel does not have a right to exist regardless of the will of the governed.

Of course, those that would deny Palestinians the right to self-determination are grand hypocrites in this sort of discussion.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
14. That's not what anti-Zionists or BDS'ers argue. Glad to see you're a Zionist.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 09:23 PM
Oct 2015

They don't believe Jews have the right to self-determination in their own state.

But you do.

Good form.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
24. Thst's not what gt wrote.
Tue Nov 3, 2015, 09:37 AM
Nov 2015

Last edited Tue Nov 3, 2015, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Once afain you conflate Israel to = Jews when Jews only make up 76 percent of the population.

Please stop conflating, shira.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
4. no state has a right to exist. the only right that exists is the right of people to choose their
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 12:44 PM
Oct 2015

own form of government.

Israelis have a right to their own state. Israel does not have a right to exist independent of the will of those it governs.

If a majority of the population inside Israel wants to replace the state of Israel with a state of Palestine, them's the breaks.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
7. yes and no. immigrants from other countries who have citizenship
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 01:37 PM
Oct 2015

in another country are already represented, so their consent isn't particularly germane

People who are disenfranchised or occupied, that's a different story.

The apartheid state of South Africa did not have a right to exist. It stopped existing in its then-current incarnation once apartheid ended.

Similarly, Israel does not have the right to exist as Israel if a majority of those it governs--including the Palestinians--want it go be replaced.

That's how democracy works, and Israel is not above democracy. There's no special set of rules governing it.




FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
9. It doesn't matter whether or not they have citizenship elsewhere
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 01:59 PM
Oct 2015

The question is whether or not they have citizenship in the nation they're living in. (Though it's worth noting that many have PA passports - which puts their consent into your "not particularly germane" bucket.

As much as the intellectually lazy would like to draw parallels to South Africa - they really don't exist. This isn't the case of a colonizing European power supplanting existing states with people who have absolutely no historical ties to the land. The Israeli's have much tighter ties to the land.

Also - Being offered citizenship and rejecting it because you won't legitimize the nation offering it to you... is very different from being disenfranchised. Not that the second attempt to abscond with the terminology of more legitimately oppressed peoples is lost on me.

As for "occupied" - the fact that land is occupied does not mean that the inhabitants of that land now have "Consent of the governed" rights to control that government. The colonists claimed the right to divorce themselves from England... they didn't claim to have a right to abolish England.

There is legitimate political disagreement (as the Pope makes clear) over what the specific boundaries of the Israeli state should be, but whatever they are, the Israeli's would have a right to determine who would be a citizen within those boundaries. You can't simultaneously claim that large swaths of the land are not theirs, and that the population of that land nevertheless has a consent right over the government that you refuse to accept governs them.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. You're claiming Jews have a right to create an apartheid state. They don't.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 02:29 PM
Oct 2015

Your Catch-22 claim of the right to apartheid is this.

the Israeli's would have a right to determine who would be a citizen within those boundaries


Cute trick-only citizens get to decide which ethnic groups get to be citizens. So, if the privileged caste decides that other castes are unworthy of basic human rights, that's perfectly okay in your book.

You view citizenship as a privilege akin to joining a country club. Human rights available only on a first-come, first serve.

What you're getting at here is that if Israel annexes Arab lands, the Jewish-led government could deny Arabs the right to vote to ensure that only Jews would be able to govern Israel, by ensuring that a majority of voters would be Jews, regardless of their % of the population.

That's fucking apartheid. There is no other word for it. And it's thoroughly dishonest to claim it isn't.

If Israel annexes territory, everyone inside that territory becomes a citizen by right. It is indisputably illegal--and an apartheid practice--to annex territory while denying full citizenship to the inhabitants of that territory.

And it sure as shit is NOT anti-Semitism to deny that apartheid is acceptable and legal if it's Jews committing it.

So, your viewpoint is based on "what is good for the people who currently govern Israel"--not anything resembling a basic understanding of democracy, human rights, and how things work in the 21st century.



FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
11. When you can only debate a strawman... You implicitly admit the weakness of your position.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 05:12 PM
Oct 2015

I claimed no such thing.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. No, I unpacked the logical underpinning of your argument pretty well.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 05:23 PM
Oct 2015
There is legitimate political disagreement (as the Pope makes clear) over what the specific boundaries of the Israeli state should be, but whatever they are, the Israeli's would have a right to determine who would be a citizen within those boundaries.


This is known as a Catch-22.

Who is eligible to be a citizen? That's up to the citizens!

What you're saying is that Israel has the right to annex territory without extending the right of citizenship to the people living in that territory. So, if the Jewish majority wishes to keep its power, it can lock people out of participating in elections on the basis of their race or religion.

That's only true if one believes apartheid is a legal option.

The upshot is that this statement:

the Israeli's would have a right to determine who would be a citizen within those boundaries.


is false if all participants in the conversation are unwilling to excuse apartheid.

So, unless you are willing to withdraw your spurious claim that Israel has the right to annex territory without offering citizenship to the inhabitants, you're explicitly arguing for Israel's right to be an apartheid state.

It is what it is. It's plain as day.

Which indicates that there's virtually nothing Israel could do that you would criticize, indicating a motive for supporting Israel that's anything but enlightened.


And, yes, the US failure to extend citizenship rights to Somoans is a grave injustice.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
15. Israel has already annexed territory & offered everyone there citizenship
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 09:26 PM
Oct 2015

In both E.Jerusalem and the Golan.

No Apartheid.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
19. Israel offered all of the Palestinians residing in Jerusalem full Israeli citizenship?
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 11:37 PM
Oct 2015

gotta link for that?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
22. "Offered citizenship" isn't exactly the term I would use...
Sat Oct 31, 2015, 10:24 PM
Oct 2015

I would rather say that some East Jerusalemites have the right to apply for citizenship, but it's a long process and not at all certain if they get it. Oh, if they were only Jewish - so that their application would be automatically made on arrival and accepted with a 100% certainty...

Anyway, here's a Haaretz article I read a while ago on the subject:

Breaking Taboo, East Jerusalem Palestinians Seek Israeli Citizenship
Source: Haaretz, Aug 05, 2015

(snip)

In part it reflects a loss of hope that an independent Palestinian state will ever emerge. But it also reflects a hard-headed pragmatism - an acknowledgement that having Israeli citizenship will make it easier to get or change jobs, buy or move house, travel abroad and receive access to services.

Israeli officials are reluctant to confirm figures, but data obtained by the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies indicates a jump over the past decade, rising from 114 applications in 2003 to between 800 and 1,000 a year now, around half of which are successful. On top of that, hundreds have made inquiries before the formal application process begins.

Interior Ministry figures obtained by Reuters show there were 1,434 applications in 2012-13, of which 189 were approved, 1,061 are still being processed and 169 were rejected. The remainder are in limbo.


Palestinians who have applied do not like to talk about it. The loyalty oath is not an easy thing for them to sign up to and becoming a naturalized Israeli - joining the enemy - is taboo.

"It felt bad, really bad," said a 46-year-old Palestinian teacher who took the oath a year ago. Despite her reservations, she knew it was right for stability and career prospects.

"We just want to live our lives," she said. "At the end of the day, politics gets you nowhere.


Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.669643
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
13. OBAMA: DENYING ISRAEL’S RIGHT TO EXIST AS A JEWISH HOMELAND IS ANTI-SEMITIC
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 09:21 PM
Oct 2015

Yesterday, The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Goldberg published a wide-ranging interview with President Obama on the Middle East. Naturally, much of the ensuing commentary has focused on the president’s defense of his Iran diplomacy and his administration’s handling of the fight against ISIS. But in poring over Obama’s comments on these big ticket issues, one of the president’s more remarkable statements has largely been overlooked: his equation of denying Israel’s right to exist with anti-Semitism.

In the latter part of their conversation, Obama and Goldberg turned to the subject of Israel. The president began by making a spirited case against those in the pro-Israel community who equate his criticisms of Israeli policy with an anti-Israel or anti-Semitic outlook. “I completely reject that,” he said. On the contrary, the president argued, by standing up for the shared liberal values of the U.S. and Israel—and pointing out when either falls short—he is ensuring both countries will endure and thrive. “I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium,” he said. “I want Israel to embody these values because Israel is aligned with us in that fight for what I believe to be true.”

.....Asked by Goldberg to delineate the relationship between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, Obama answered as follows:

I think a good baseline is: Do you think that Israel has a right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people, and are you aware of the particular circumstances of Jewish history that might prompt that need and desire? And if your answer is no, if your notion is somehow that that history doesn’t matter, then that’s a problem, in my mind. If, on the other hand, you acknowledge the justness of the Jewish homeland, you acknowledge the active presence of anti-Semitism—that it’s not just something in the past, but it is current—if you acknowledge that there are people and nations that, if convenient, would do the Jewish people harm because of a warped ideology. If you acknowledge those things, then you should be able to align yourself with Israel where its security is at stake, you should be able to align yourself with Israel when it comes to making sure that it is not held to a double standard in international fora, you should align yourself with Israel when it comes to making sure that it is not isolated.


http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/191196/obama-denying-israels-right-to-exist-as-a-jewish-homeland-is-anti-semitic

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
17. However, denying that the land controlled by Israel is the homeland of the Palestinians is also
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 11:22 PM
Oct 2015

racist.

All of historical Palestine from the river to the sea is the homeland of the Palestinians. This doesn't interfere with the Jewish homeland in the same place at all, unless you're a racist or something.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
16. No country has a right to exist.
Fri Oct 30, 2015, 11:16 PM
Oct 2015

However, every country has a right to exist in safety and prosperity. When I read the article title, I thought the Pope had lost his mind. Actually it was only the author of the article who had lost his mind...

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
20. Sorry... that's nonsensical
Sat Oct 31, 2015, 06:38 PM
Oct 2015

You can't have a "right to exist in safety and prosperity" without having a right to exist.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
21. Oh dear.
Sat Oct 31, 2015, 10:09 PM
Oct 2015

Countries are not people, and countries don't have rights like people. This means that countries don't have the right initself to exist, just like corporations and other immaterial associations. However, there are rules that define lawful behaviour for countries towards other countries. These are the rules that I invoke when I say that all countries have the right to exist in safety and prosperity.

It's a common logical error among pro-Israel people that Israel somehow has a right in itself to exist, and furthermore that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish and racist state. There's no right - no country has such a right.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
23. No other nation on the planet has its very existence threatened like Israel....
Mon Nov 2, 2015, 05:42 PM
Nov 2015

There are no other nations being asked to negotiate their sovereignty like Israel.

Hence, the Pope's statement.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
25. "There are no other nations being asked to negotiate their sovereignty like Israel."
Tue Nov 3, 2015, 11:40 AM
Nov 2015

More revisionist BS.

Israel has illegally stolen Palestinian land, via illegal Jewish colonies, and you complain that they are being asked to "negotiate their sovereignty??!!"

Oh, poor you!

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
28. Like one apartheid state: Israelis get to illegally spread out and rule over
Wed Nov 4, 2015, 10:50 AM
Nov 2015

illegally those they treat no better than livestock.

It's Apartheid, but some pretend that it doesn't exist. Some would rather spread disinformation for Israel...IMHO.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
29. So since you believe 2 states is dead, what then becomes of Israel?
Wed Nov 4, 2015, 04:18 PM
Nov 2015

Last edited Wed Nov 4, 2015, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

What's it going to be if the choice was yours?

Other than its destruction, of course.

I'll wait...

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
33. Israel may well be the author of its own demise.
Wed Nov 4, 2015, 07:54 PM
Nov 2015

But of course there will be dime store hasbarists that will endlessly place the blame everywhere and on everybody but the authors of illegal colonialism and apartheid.

what then becomes of Israel?


Perhaps it finally becomes a democratic state for all: Jews and Palestinians.

Or it can become a police state.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
34. You didn't answer the question, which is not surprising....
Wed Nov 4, 2015, 07:56 PM
Nov 2015

Since you don't believe 2 states is possible, all that's left is Israel's destruction in your view - correct?

It would help if you'd answer the simplest questions - unless you have something to hide.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
35. Perhaps the scales will fall from your eyes one day, shira. I doubt it though.
Wed Nov 4, 2015, 08:57 PM
Nov 2015

I did answer you. You just couldn't comprehend the words in front of you...IMHO.
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