Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPeace Talks Must Resume, Clinton Says in Israel Visit
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Why now? The answer is elections, observed Eytan Gilboa, a politics professor at Bar-Ilan University. Hillary Clinton is very popular in Israel. There were talks about Obama coming here I think he did very well to avoid a visit by himself. It was a great idea to send her to do some politicking for him.
Welcoming Mrs. Clinton to dinner at his Jerusalem office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the Palestinians as an anchor of peace, saying, We have to invest every effort to maintain it, to keep the tranquillity and see if we can move the process forward. But first on the agenda, Mr. Netanyahu said, was the 30-year-old peace treaty with Egypt.
Later, at her news conference, Mrs. Clinton said: The United States, Israel, and Egypt all share a strong interest in the treaty. It has served as the backbone for regional stability for more than three decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/world/middleeast/hillary-clinton-sees-opportunity-in-middle-east.html?_r=1
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)
sounds almost threatening, why would he be doing well to avoid physically being in Israel?
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)then what was your purpose here?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Dunno,
But I tried reading this :
How to Discover Your Life Purpose in About 20 Minutes
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/01/how-to-discover-your-life-purpose-in-about-20-minutes/
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Tikkun olam, Baby
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... Youtube videos of Obama being boo'd by Israelis might not fit well with the campaign meme that Obama is a "Israel's Best Friend".
Got to keep those messages on track if we want a second term, right?
Of course -- some people who don't trust Israelis of a certain ethnicity might see "physical threats" in those words. Mightn't they?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)would affect his chances of being re-elected?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... of Americans of both parties support Israel according to the polls. And I know that Obama is proud of and really wants to hold on to his majority share of the "Jewish Vote" then yes -- I think it would make a difference -- I don't know if it would make THE difference, but I think it would make A difference.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the IvoteIsrael project seems to think so too, because as it pointed out many Jews are located in large electoral vote state such as Florida where in 2000 around 550 votes 'gifted' Israel with 8 years of Republican to hell with whether it's good for the US right? I've read some denials of this but the numbers do speak for themselves and the votes of those who choose Israel as their country but can still vote in US elections can decide the fate of the US
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... that (at least some) American Jews have divided loyalties when it comes to the interests of the US and Israel. I really hope that's not what you're saying.
There are many American Jews -- myself included -- who believe that Israel and the US have many common goals, are firm allies and that what is good for one can be good for both. Israel is a valuable trading and technology partner for the US. Israel is one of the largest recipients of private investment dollars for medical and technology research and development. The Yellow Pages of Tel Aviv reads like a "Who's Who" of large American companies. There must be a reason why American (not Jewish) companies choose to invest billions of dollars there and not say, in Syria, right?
America has many allies around the world and many Americans feel strongly that supporting those allies is also supporting America. Would you consider someone to have divided loyalties if they felt England were a valuable trading partner and ally despite the fact that England continues to occupy portions of Ireland and has a very reactionary policy concerning illegal immigration? What if those persons had English ancestry -- would they be accused of choosing what is best for England and not for their America? Of course not.
The old antisemitic canard of -- "Jews can't be trusted because they will always be more loyal to themselves than their host country" is centuries old and frankly, not a very progressive sentiment. So, you can forgive me for being suspicious of motive when the implication is made.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as I sited the IVoteIsrael project which is aimed at dual citizens (American/Israeli) living in Israel so your "canards" have no true application here but don't let facts stop you
and oh if those dual citizens from "England" were pushing for votes for a party Republicans that they felt were good for England but were proven to be bad for the US yes I would call their loyalties divided however despite what Israel wants it may frustrate you to know that 64% of US Jews residing in the US will still be voting for Obama and I'm sure most US Jews already know Obama is quite disliked in Israel
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... or to be more explicit ... does not specifically forbid it.
Americans who live overseas as citizens or residents of another country and continue to hold American citizenship MUST yearly file US income tax returns and pay their share of American taxes. This applies to Americans living anywhere, Israel, Japan, Germany, or Lithuania you name it. Would a Korean-American living in Seoul as a Korean citizen be ineligible to full participation in the his American franchise rights? Would be accused of having "divided loyalties"?
So why, if someone remains a citizen of the US and continues to pay their share of US taxes, would they not have a say in the US electoral system? "No taxation without representation" is a pretty established principle in American ethos. Why would you seek to deny (or question the loyalty) of American citizens exercising their franchise rights?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)after all US citizens can vote in US elections even if they do not pay taxes, your staing such could be taken as the privilege of voting is for sale in a manner of speaking
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)If you're trying to make a point, it would be better made if you don't twist what I say. Make your arguments on their own points.
The simple act of paying taxes doesn't give you franchise, I never said that. What I did say is that to participate in franchise, you need to pay your fair share. Allow to explain the difference.
Here it how it works -- I can try to put this to a "Schoolhouse Rock" tune if it will help but that will take me longer.
If you make an income -- you must file -- even if you're an American citizen living abroad.
-- If you file and it turns out you don't owe then you've already paid your share -- you pay no additional taxes and may even be due a refund
-- If you file and you owe -- you must pay your fair share
-- If you make no income -- you need not file -- if you have no income, then your fair share is effectively zero (but, you had better be able to prove no income or you break the law)
This differs from almost every country in the world. Most countries do not require their citizens to pay taxes for the time they spend out of the country. For example, Australian citizens working abroad do not pay taxes on their foreign incomes -- the do pay taxes on money repatriated to Australia. America takes it one step further -- if you renounce your US citizenship, you are legally obligated to file a return and pay monies owed in US taxes for ten years AFTER you give up your citizenship. This law has been used against high-profile individuals who change citizenship to avoid US taxes.
So -- American citizens living in any country, to comply with law, must file and pay their fair share. If they're doing they, they should -- according to a key principle of America's emancipation from England -- be able to participate in their right of franchise.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if one does not pay taxes then would America demand extradition from Israel of such citizens?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)"it may frustrate you to know that 64% of US Jews residing in the US will still be voting for Obama..."
I'm not disappointed at all. American Jews have been stalwart Democrats since the days of Reconstruction. That Obama could only lay claim to 64% (although there is no way this number could accurately be derived) of American Democrats in his second term isn't something for him to take pride in. It takes a LOT to make lifelong Jewish Democrats not support a Democrat president for a second-term.
That being said, I don't question anyone's loyalty to their country based on how they vote. I believe that George W. Bush and Barack Obama are both equally loyal to the US and patriotic Americans, in spite of our political differences. I submit to you that one can't come to obtain the highest office in the land WITHOUT being a patriotic American.
We may differ significantly on what we feel is best for America -- but, I would never question the patriotism of an American citizen who wasn't actively involved in the violent overthrow of the US.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and yes I believe that one can obtain the office of POTUS without having the best interests of Americans in mind, you'd find many here would agree with that, but it seems you do not post 'upstairs' much
I also find it interesting that you feel one has to be actively involved in the overthrow of the US before their loyalty to the US best interests can be questioned
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Do you assume someone who has different ideas of what is best for the country than yours should be suspect of disloyalty to their country?
That's not a very progressive concept -- it's actually a bit totalitarian.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)motives should be questioned and that given these things he may not truly have the best interests of average Americans in mind
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Here is a group assisting American citizens to exercise their franchise rights. They aren't telling them HOW to vote, they're just telling them TO vote and making it easier for them to do so.
I'm at a loss to understand how or why encouraging Americans to exercise their rights as Americans is anything but a good thing?
Honestly, how is this different from ACORN or any other of the many organization that assist people in the logistics of voting? Or... is it only Americans living in Israel with which we have a problem?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and some of the other issues brought up in just this one advert what is the underlying message as to how to vote and who for?
it is also different from ACORN because it targets those American citizens who chose not to live in America who's interests and concerns are not necessarily the same as Americans who actually live here
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... if Obama would be boo'd. I suspect HE thinks he would, which is why he sent Hillary (that was the point of the OP).
Are you really categorizing Americans based on where they live? Most of the American Expats I know are Democrats.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:49 AM - Edit history (1)
and that was why he would not visit, because that would make a bad impression on Americans across the board myself I think your wrong about all of it
Obama would probably not be boo'd in Israel
if he was most American would not really care and the bad impression might actually be of Israel, because Americans see quite often how much money the US gives Israel even under Obama
Most Americans do not really care one way or the other about Israel or Israel/Palestine most eyes will glaze and they intone "those people over there have been killing each other since the bible" most nonJewish Americans do not equate their Jewish neighbors to Israel
as a sitting President Obama is wise to stay in the US because most American voters are more concerned about what is going on here rather than in a foreign country
and what5 you apparently fail to see that is offensive about IVoteIsrael is that American/Israeli citizens are being asked to vote for Israel's best interests regardless of whether its actually good for America or the majority of Americans living here
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... that you think I can predict the future.
But, if you go back and check, what I said was to the effect that it would be embarrassing for him if he was. I suspect that is why he didn't go to Israel like his opponent is doing.
You say that most Americans don't care about Israel and I suspect you're right -- but, polls say most Americans have a favourable opinion of Israel by a wide majority and some obviously do care about the Jewish state and see our relations with Israel as an issue. So, how would it be a bad thing for a candidate to court those voters?
As to encouraging people to vote for the benefit of Israel (to quote the video "the next president and congress will have a huge impact on your future [as an Israeli]" was I believe the only statement to that affect) what makes you think that Obama and Democrat majority in congress wouldn't be the correct choice? Are you saying that Obama and the Democrats aren't the friend to Israel that they claim to be? In fact, Democrat congress members overwhelmingly support Israel so I see this video as encouraging Americans in Israel to vote for Democrats as well as Republicans -- the advert is totally agnostic to party.
You may see a diabolical hand (a protocol if you will) in this message -- I see it as encouraging American citizens to exercise their rights as citizens -- ALWAYS a good thing.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)"Youtube videos of Obama being boo'd by Israelis might not fit well with the campaign meme that Obama is a "Israel's Best Friend".
Got to keep those messages on track if we want a second term, right?
Of course -- some people who don't trust Israelis of a certain ethnicity might see "physical threats" in those words. Mightn't they?"
seems I missed the underhanded implication of antisemitism but be sure to keep it classy Holden I would expect no less from you and the general tone of your comment seems rather negative towards Obama
and I never said in the comment your replying to that Israeli?Americans would vote one way or the other I said in Israels best interest which extrapolating from your comments would be a vote for someone other than Obama who you as we plainly see you stated would be on youtube vids being boo'd
and it would take someone who is quite a zealot to claim Israels and Americas best interests are exactly the same
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Does it?
I don't see how. Obama has made no secret of the fact that he's expecting to get the lion's share of the "Jewish Vote". I don't see how it's negative to state clearly that a less than stellar reception in Israel might impact that expectation, do you?
Also, you really need to stop misquoting me if you really want to carry on a conversation -- go back and read what I said
I don't mind talking to you on this subject -- but, all this misrepresentation is clearly wasting time.
"There are many American Jews -- myself included -- who believe that Israel and the US have many common goals, are firm allies and that what is good for one can be good for both." [emphasis my own]
I stand by that statement -- American companies invest billions in research and development facilities in Israel for a reason. They're a good trading partner and an ally to the US in the region. Is that a zealous position? If this makes me an ideologue then there are millions of ideologues in the US today.
Nowhere did I say "Israels and Americas best interests are exactly the same". It is not possible for two sovereign countries to have exactly the same interests. Not even the US and Canada's interests are exactly the same and I can't imagine two countries more culturally similar.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you are saying
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=14127
so how Jews in a foreign country feel about Obama will influence how Jews in this country will vote?
your statement sounds like a dual loyalty canard or you think American Jews are ignorant about how Israeli's (according to you) feel about Obama, me I think American Jews are Americans and Israeli Jews are Israeli now there is some cross-over but it is the IVoteIsrael campaign that is asking them to decide their primary loyalty is to Israel something you apparently have no problem with
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... then go for it.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but explain what you meant then