Gaza Christians sense pressure to convert to Islam

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

Gaza Christians sense pressure to convert to Islam

By Nidal al-Mughrabi
GAZA | Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:57am EDT

(Reuters) - Two conversions that a Christian family says were forced have strained relations between a tiny Palestinian Christian community in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip and the Muslim majority.

Hundreds of Christians have staged protests in Gaza's main church in the past week, demanding the return of members of their community of 2,500, whom they said were kidnapped by Islamist proselytizers and forced to convert to Islam.

Christians are blaming the Hamas-affiliated Palestine Scholars Association and its chairman Salem Salama, a senior member of the Islamist Hamas movement.

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Hamas officials reject the church's accusations, saying two Christians, a man and a woman, converted freely to Islam. The woman, who had left her husband, brought along her three daughters aged 12, 9, and 6 who are now being taught the Koran.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/26/us-palestinians-christians-conversion-idUSBRE86P0J420120726

[Trillo]

1. How is this any different from private religious schools

forcing children, students, to attend religious services? Or, for Christains to keep knocking on the same non-Christians door irregardless of how many times the people inside have said "No" previously?

[Swede]

2. Well,Hamas has thrown folks it disagrees with off the roofs of buildings.

That is how it's different.

[azurnoir]

4. well yes indeed that oft repeated incident did happen in June of 2007

during the Hamas coup in Gaza, an incident worth its weight in gold at least for some apparently

[King_David]

7. Yes bad move for Hamas

Bad PR for a terrorist movement engaged in some of the worst imaginable and unparalleled ,atrocities .

[azurnoir]

8. " worst imaginable and unparalleled ,atrocities ." so apparently you discount

'little' things like Rwanda in 1994, but what the heck they were only Africans and Israel has a problem with those "infiltrators"*or at least that could be taken as the attitude

*infiltrators is the Israeli government officials term for nonJewish migrants and asylum seekers most of whom are Black Africans

[King_David]

9. From Rwanda ? Really ?

Not all Africans are the same.

Some Africans are White and some Jewish and some Asian.

Africa is a big Continent divided into many countries. It is not one Continent made up of 1 country like Australia is.

[azurnoir]

10. you seem to understand that not all Africans are Black Kudo's but I did not say they were

your attempt at diversion falls quite flat the Africans that were massacred in Rwanda were Black and the Africans Israeli officials refer to as infiltrators are Black does that clear things up for you?

however my point was that there have been many atrocities worse than the one you refer to as "some of the worst imaginable and unparalleled ,atrocities ."

[Bradlad]

3. Good point.

Unless one of the "kidnapped" "conversos" escapes and tells a different story or unless Christian families have some real evidence for what they say - it's not right to treat this as any different from cults in the US who induce people to come and live with them who end up converted to their religious views. Unsavory, but I think generally those who need a religion to feel complete in their life (I'm not disparaging them) will be attracted to the appeal of any number of religious narratives, especially if there are some personal reasons to want to break with their existing community.

OTOH initial news stories about anything that happens in the world and even in democracies often turn out to be quite wrong. But that's especially true under totalitarian regimes that control news sources and where those stories exonerate the regime of suspected wrongdoing. Maybe we'll hear more in the coming days.

[azurnoir]

5. Did you read the article one of "converso's" has returned home

Hamas officials reject the church's accusations, saying two Christians, a man and a woman, converted freely to Islam. The woman, who had left her husband, brought along her three daughters aged 12, 9, and 6 who are now being taught the Koran.

The 24-year-old man told reporters he had become Muslim of his own free will and wanted to go back to his family, should they accept him as a Muslim. A day later, he returned home.

It was not possible to speak to the newly converted woman, Hiba Daoud, but in a video clip made by a pro-Hamas news website she tells her family it was her decision to become a Muslim.

"We are living with a (Muslim) family, they bring us all we need, they teach us how to pray and everything," said Hiba, wearing a full Muslim dress and a scarf covering her hair.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/26/us-palestinians-christians-conversion-idUSBRE86P0J420120726

now the article goes on to say that the women's Aunt does not believe her and believes she was forced to make the video

in any event if the conversions were forced that is despicable

[Bradlad]

6. Yes, I agree.

Last edited Fri Jul 27, 2012, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

I thought it was interesting what the Aunt said. I guess I'm suspicious about almost anything I hear coming from Gaza or the WB regardless of who says it - at least until some real investigative reporting has been done and the dust has had time to settle.

As for the Aunt; there's a lot at stake for family honor in Arab culture. (I'm not disparaging that. It can be a force for good too.) But a reason for many of the honor killings is not so much that the father or brother want to kill their sister for having a boyfriend - but that neighbors gossip and raise accusations which alone is enough to severely degrade that family's honor - no matter if they are true. And then the only way to regain the honor for that family - which can have many dozens of members in the community going back centuries - is for the honor killing to occur.

It seems to me that by claiming she was forced to convert might be a way to regain some of the honor for that family that would be lost if she voluntarily gave up her religion. I don't know that of course - just guessing.

[azurnoir]

11. so honor killings are part of Arab culture rather than Muslim?

is that exclusive to Arab culture, actually I did not know there was a monolithic Arab culture

[oberliner]

12. You haven't read a lot on this subject, have you?

Even your favorite site, Wikipedia, touches on this:

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University, says that honor killing is:

A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honour killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Culture

Arab culture is hardly monolithic. Neither is Western culture. In the West, a female does not generally walk around in public topless. Get the point?

[azurnoir]

14. apparently you did not fully read your own link

but I do understand your need to make it appear that ALL Palestinians engage in this but there are some none Arab or shucks even Muslim countries included aren't there or did you read that far? Haiti and Italy to name 2

eta lets not forget India where bride burning still goes on

[Bradlad]

13. Actually

Actually honor killings are common to many cultures in the world. From Wiki:

According to the UN in 2002:

The report of the Special Rapporteur... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in western countries such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities.[37][38]

In addition, the UN Commission on Human Rights report honor killings in the nations of Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, India, Israel, Italy, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda.[28]

According to Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, the practice of honor killing "goes across cultures and across religions."[39]

I'd day the common factor is patriarchal cultures that devalue women's role in society. My own suspicion is that those societies are more likely to start wars of aggression although I have done no actual data collection.

[azurnoir]

15. what I find so 'intersting' is that it is only called honor killing when an Arab or Muslim

the perpetrator anyone else its 'mere' domestic violence

[Bradlad]

16. In cultures that are

In cultures that are not so patriarchal and where women's behavior is not normally seen to humiliate her whole family in the eyes of others - when a women is killed by a family member it probably is domestic violence.

[azurnoir]

17. um in 'cultures' such as rightwing Christians in this country it is much the same in fact

there is a global streak of type of 'patriarchy' that appears in virtually every culture but only when it is Arabs is it called honor killing

eta IMO this so called concern for the rights of Arab women is a means of putting liberal clothes on what is in reality garden variety rightwingesque antiArabism, one can tell the difference when it seems limited to Arab women rather than a more universal concern for women's rights

[Bradlad]

18. Just curious.

Just curious. Do think being accused of an honor killing is worse than being accused of a domestic violence killing? They both seem pretty outrageously wrong to me. I think perhaps people refer to honor killing in cultures where it is common because that's the term those cultures use. Since it is a part of their culture they would need a specific term for it.

Also, I think when it occurs, the perpetrators generally want others to know about it because the purpose of honor killing is to regain honor that was lost. If no-one knows who killed the daughter then how can the family's honor be regained?

I would agree that when a man kills a female family member or spouse in a rage - he probably feels that his personal honor was violated. But honor killing is a family thing and the family's honor is what is being defended - not the father's personal honor so much. I think that makes it a distinct category.

Added: I recommend the Wiki article. It isn't long but seems pretty thorough.

[azurnoir]

19. actually I think they're generally the same

and in the West Bank there was an honor killing where the body wasn't found for almost a year, it was hidden in a well, so the "they want people to know" theory is kind of shot , but it seems you are pretty determined to single out Arab culture as being 'special' in this sense that's your prerogative

oh BTW I read the wiki article hours ago when oberliner posted it

[pelsar]

20. respecting other cultures....

the term honor killing is in fact the term used by the arab and islamic culture, hence using that term within the context of the I/P conflict is most appropriate. Whereas for example using "domestic violence" to describe an arab honor killing, though it may make many westerners "feel better" it is in fact a poor description, and since it remains a part of the arab culture today to describe a specific type of events, that involve arab culture and 'honor" as per ones standing in the community, its appropriate to use both terms to describe it, when it occurs.

As far as the young Palestinian women who disappeared for a year and was the apparent victim of an 'honor killing", again your lack of knowledge is showing and sometimes its better to ask when cross cultural events occur rather than make a conclusion based on lack of knowledge or your own cultural bias (the one that seems to say one generalizations are a "no no' unless the right people make them).

One of the variations of preserving honor is that the perpetrator "disappear" ..it may mean sending them to an uncle in the US or dumping them down a well, either way the "honor" is returned as the "bad" person is no longer a part of the family, that is the core of the "returning honor." Killing is simple a stronger statement.

just for general knowledge, honor killings still occur within the israeli Bedouin community, who are not arabs, yet the term is the same) rare, but cultures can be hard to change, especially when one cannot speak clearly about them without fear of the "PC" police.

[Bradlad]

21. You seem pretty determined yourself.

Let's see. I post a comment that starts with my words: "Actually honor killings are common to many cultures in the world. "

And ends with a quote from HRW advocacy director Widney Brown, that " . . the practice of honor killing goes across cultures and across religions."

And from that you deduce that I am " . . pretty determined to single out Arab culture as being 'special' in this sense."

It's unfortunate how some here seem so obsessed with imagining bigotry in any comment that even mentions culture. The thing is culture is a major determinant in all human behavior - including humans like you and me who live in our culture. Understanding cultural differences can explain a great deal.

Culture is especially about behavior in conflicts because we learn most of our cultural behavior patterns before we become adults. And so when we feel in extreme danger those early behavior patterns are what our brains trust most to guide our behavior. I'm not talking about what a culture calls meat wrapped in bread. I mean really basic stuff like internalizing the roles and places of males vs females in our culture, what is expected from each by the other. Another part of that is internalizing how males must behave when they are humiliated if they want to be respected by others- and even what constitutes humiliation. These can all vary widely across cultures but can be remarkably consistent within them.

And since this group is about a major ongoing conflict it would be a good thing IMO if we were all able to discuss the topic in an adult way and leave the childish accusations out. I also realize that it's probably too much to ask for some here.

[azurnoir]

22. sir what I posted was in response to this from you

As for the Aunt; there's a lot at stake for family honor in Arab culture. (I'm not disparaging that. It can be a force for good too.) But a reason for many of the honor killings is not so much that the father or brother want to kill their sister for having a boyfriend - but that neighbors gossip and raise accusations which alone is enough to severely degrade that family's honor - no matter if they are true. And then the only way to regain the honor for that family - which can have many dozens of members in the community going back centuries - is for the honor killing to occur

the post about it being a multicultural thing came after that and on that we agree my point was that honor killings IMO are for the most part no different from other types of domestic violence against women all are despicable .

[Bradlad]

23. I understand this is an uncomfortble topic for you.

But it's hard to discuss things like honor killing and religious conversion without also understanding the concept of family honor. It is a well known topic in the sciences of both psychology and cultural anthropology. Thousands of articles have been written by scientists and graduate students on the topic.

Here's a Wikipedia article on family honor as it affects the lives in very important ways of those who live in indigenous cultures in Africa and the ME. (Note: Not just Arab cultures.)

Middle East and Africa

The aspects of family honor mentioned above differ throughout varying cultures and countries. Family honor in the Bedouin and other Middle Eastern cultures consists of interdependent forms of ird and sharaf. Ird is the honor of a woman she is born with which involves her chastity and continence whereas sharaf is the honor code for men which depends on ird of women in the family. Due to its connection to ird, sharaf includes protecting ird of the family members. The adherence to these gender-specific honor codes is important to keep the respectability and sexual honors of the family, particularly men, known as namus.[23][24] For example, the sexual relationships of a girl are seen in these societies to make her impure and of lesser value, which affects her eligibility for marriage. Public knowledge and gossip about sexual impurity or adultery are proposed to be the main reasons that loss of family honor can bring shame to the family.[25][26] Preservation of family honor is not only important for respectability of family members in society but also affects the fate of all family members. To protect family honor and dignity, families may resort in killing the woman who is involved in the dishonorable act.[25][27] In an associated context, to protect the purity and chastity of young girls, families may decide to practice female genital mutilation, a practice that removes or damages female genital organs to assure that sex will not be pleasurable. A mutilated woman is changed so that she has no desire to engage in sexual activity that may undermine the family's honor.[28][29]

An example of this can be seen in Sierra Leone, Africa where young girls are mutilated every year. The number of girls mutilated in Africa per year has risen to 3 million.[30] Rugiatu Turay, founder of the Amazonian Initiative Movement, protects young girls from being circumcised by their female counterparts that consist of secret societies like bondo and sande and female practitioners who still engage in the ceremonial tradition today. Girls as young as the age of five assist in the mutilation of other young girls in the country.[30] At the age of 12, Turay was snatched by female family members, held down and had her clitoris cut off with a knife. She was beaten, forced to walk, and had hot pepper water poured in her eyes. As she was mutilated, the women sang, danced, and clap ceremoniously.[30] According to these women, Turay had become a woman. However, females are generally mutilated under the age of 15. Girls who are trained to assist in this ceremony are trained as young as five years old. Turay has convinced 400 practitioners to stop the practice of female mutilation, but 97 million females have been mutilated within the country and the numbers remain constant, even increasing.[30] The practice has been enforced by politicians within the country and locals refer to the practice as a ceremony that initiates womanhood, prepares females for marriage, and restricts their sexual conduct.[30]

I believe that honor killing, FGM and all forms of family or domestic violence are despicable. Because millions of young girls throughout the world every year are permanently damaged and scarred for life, or in some cases, murdered, because of these forces in their society, I try to learn whatever I can about the causes of these practices so I can form scientifically based opinions and participate intelligently in public discussions on the topic.

One reason for the prevalence of such abhorrent practices in the world is the silly notion that discussion of cultural differences means that one is a bigot and so knowledge of the topic is not pursued and the damage these practices cause is swept under the rug, sacrificed to the God of political correctness.

Sorry, I care too much about the millions of innocent girls in the world who suffer the consequences of these abhorrent practices to do that. And I'll save my accusations of bigotry for those who think that some cultures are so backward and incapable of change that they should be allowed to murder and mutilate their daughters with no-one taking notice, so as not to offend their "cultural sensitivities".

[shira]

24. Rights trump culture & religion

September 6, 2006
iranian.com

Cultural relativism and its more seemingly palatable multiculturalism have lowered standards and redefined values to such depths that not only are all cultures and beliefs deemed equally valid, they seem to have taken on personas of their own blurring the distinction between individuals and beliefs (whether theirs or imputed).

<snip>

Cultural relativism is not only a prescription for inaction and passivity in the face of the oppression of millions of people struggling and resisting in the Middle East and here in the west but is in fact racist in and of itself.

This is because it implies that masses of people choose to live the way they are often forced to and imputes on them the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class, imams and self-appointed leaders. I am supposedly automatically Muslim because I was born in Iran as if that is the only option available; the Muslim Council of Britain, the Islamic Human Rights Commission and the rest of them supposedly automatically represent me – though I wouldn't touch any them with a ten foot barge pole.

Cultural relativism also implies that Islam and political Islam represent all those who are considered Muslims – whether they were born or living in the Middle East, Asia or North Africa or once came from there umpteen generations ago. It would be similar to assume that the Catholic Church (that is during the inquisition) and the right wing British National Party represent all British.

It's as if there are no classes, political, social and rights activists, communists, atheists, progressives, humanists, rationalists or secularists among this group - all are Muslims and the most reactionary of Islamists at that!

more...
http://www.iranian.com/Namazie/2006/September/Relativism/index.html

[azurnoir]

26. yes shira tell how Cultural relativism is a dirty thing

and Robert Spence Pam Geller and Robert Bolton would agree with you !00% guess that makes them liberals in your book ?

[azurnoir]

25. as I said I agree with you on violenece against women and girl in all in forms being abominable

Last edited Fri Jul 27, 2012, 02:24 PM - Edit history (1)

the difference is I do not focus on one group or place the blame for practices such as FMG on one group, I have met a number Christian Eritrean women who are victims of FMG that particular practice dates back 3000 years or more and is wide spread in Africa

this was not a discussion about cultural difference it was about focusing on one culture sometimes at the expense of other practices such as bride burning in India

eta the concept of family honor that you seem to so articulately place as a feature of Arab Culture is also quite global so thanks for backing up my point, I note in every comment you start out claiming universal concern but always wind up in the same place

[pelsar]

33. what is wrong with focusing on one group?....

I do not focus on one group

what do you thing research and discussion is all about? If were talking about the middle east, bringing in the bride burning in india has no relevance (unless its a comparative study).

If however we're discussing the middle east wars, the cultures involved and then yes we can discuss ARAB/MUSLIM culture and its relationship to family honor and the sometimes result of honor killings. In fact we can even discuss if there are different socio-economic groups amongst the ARAB/MUSLIM/PALESTINIAN cultures that have differences between their reactions to real and perceived "dishonor"...and you know something? its not racist to talk about it, to research it, to focus on it and to make conclusions....totally ignoring the Bedouin, the Druze etc

same thing for the JEWS, the SETTLERS, the CHRISTIAN GAZANS, and any other cultural sub group that exists all are open for focused study to better understand their motivations etc
_________________________

has gaza under hamas seen a strengthening in honor killings?....i understand from you point of view, its not anything we should learn about, care about, or even discuss.......

OOPS, am i now a racist for not just wondering about it, but actually writing it out? and focusing on gaza and hamas a predominately muslim/arab/Palestenians society?...shame on me, send me to the re-education camp

____

Your advocating a PC version of life.....afraid to offend? afraid to be called racist? afraid to have real knowledge.

[King_David]

27. Any culture condoning or practicing Honor Killing is an inferior culture,

Any country condoning or practicing Honor Killing should not be recognized nor allowed to exist.

[azurnoir]

28. and explain please which countries by name should in your book not be allowed to exist ? n/t

[King_David]

29. Read my post

Theres no explanation necessary .

[azurnoir]

30. your post simply said societies in avoidance of naming countries perhaps?

but in addition what steps would you take to not allow their existence?

[King_David]

31. I'm going to post my opinion on DU

And hope it takes off like wildfire.

[azurnoir]

32. But without further explanation of a statement like "should not be allowed to exist"

could be taken in a number of ways, why are you reluctant to explain further?

[King_David]

34. As I said there is no need,

If you disagree, just say so.

No need to be cryptic.

[azurnoir]

35. well before I can agree or disagree I must know exactly what is meant when

you say that societies that in fact do exist should not be allowed to exist, something that you seem reluctant or perhaps is it unable to explain , or are simply engaging in sound byte type statements?